Dr. Brown Takes Your Calls and Answers Your Questions

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Does it matter if Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday? Did I lend my name to the controversial Jews for Jesus video “That Jew Died for You”? According to Galatian 1, how and when did Paul receive his revelation of Jesus and the gospel? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at (866) 348 7884 with your questions and comments.

 

Hour 1:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Look at your life and ask yourself, is this where I want to be ten years from now? If not, seek God like never before.

 

Hour 2:

Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: No matter how much we grow in the Lord, no matter how mature we are, we never outgrow the foundations of the word of God.

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Other Resources:

The Gospel as a Stumblingblock

Where Is Your Jewish Ministry Money Going? (And Answers to Your Jewish Questions)

Jews for Jesus Launches a New (and Controversial) Outreach, and a Shocking Attack on Religious Freedom in Our Schools

86 Comments
  1. Well, time for me to go to church.

    I will probably come back. I’m especially interested to see if Van answers either of the direct questions I asked him.

    I honestly answered his question. Will he answer mine?

  2. Greg,

    Ge 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

    Ge 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

    Ge 32:12 And thou saidst, I will surely do thee good, and make thy seed as the sand of the sea, which cannot be numbered for multitude.

    The stars of the heavens are compared indirectly to the sand of the sea in Genesis. The naked eye can only see a few thousand stars on a clear night. Was YHWH promising to only make Abraham’s descendants a few thousand or numberless to Him? (Hint: He says numberless.) Bronze age or not, the scripture is inspired by the One that made the heavens and the earth. He knows how He did it and told us. He knows that both the sand and the stars are numberless to us. You are trying to force a literal passage into a nice little kindergarten story instead of simply believing it the way it stands. Science and secular history is your authority instead of the inspired word of YHWH.

  3. Van,

    You wrote:
    “No one ever answered this: How did the holocaust fit in with God’s plan?”

    Someone did here: http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2014/04/28/lessons-for-all-of-us-on-holocaust-remembrance-day/#comment-777050

    Here is what it said:

    Van,

    There is passage after passage prophesying that Israel will be punished for their sin and rebellion against YHWH and that they will be scattered into all the nations of the earth and be persecuted and that in the last days they will be regathered to the land of Israel…rapidly…miraculously. Now they are back in the land miraculously. A nation and people that was completely obliterated has been resurrected. The Holocaust was instrumental in the birth pains of Israel being born.

    All that said, there are also prophesies about what will happen to those that abuse Israel. These we have seen come to pass over and over. Germany was taught a great lesson, as was Babylon, and Rome, and Assyria, and Egypt and we and the rest of the nations of the world would do well to learn from history and prophesy.

    When are you going to stop dodging and man up and answer the charge that you lied and misrepresented Schweitzer? In case you and others have almost forgotten, here is a gentle reminder of the challenge:

    Why should anyone listen to you when you have been proven wrong and won’t admit it? Why should we listen to a troll?

    “troll
    One who posts a deliberately provocative message…with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument.”- http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll

    When are you going to answer the charge that you took Scweitzer out of context? Did you do it intentionally or were you duped by someone and then just regurgitate the lie? At least admit that you were wrong, even if you won’t tell us your motive. Don’t dodge or ignore this if you are an honest man. To refresh you memory, here is the challenge:

    Below is one of many examples of Van’s deception technique. He has been asked repeatedly to either admit that he has posted false testimony or to produce verification of his assertion. After being called on the carpet, he conveniently ignores all rebuttals and continues to regurgitate deception mixed with a huge amount of rhetoric, vitriol and insult. He is not to be taken seriously as scholar or a commentator. He is a troll, and nothing more.

    Van wrote:
    “’There is nothing more negative than the result of the critical study of the life of Jesus. The Jesus of Nazareth who came forward publicly as the Messiah, who preached the Kingdom of God, who founded the Kingdom of Heaven upon earth, and died to give his work its final consecration, never had any existence.’ – Albert Scweitzer (1875-1965)

    You just accused Albert Schweitzer of being classless, unqualified, and simple minded. Par for the course for people who have no respect for intelligence and education.

    Many scholars have tried to find evidence from outside the Bible that Jesus really existed. They came up with nothing, absolutely nothing as Dr. Schweitzer said.

    You people have bought into all the lies of religion and then you repeat these lies without any hint of a conscience. Calling me a liar when all I do is speak the truth just shows how backward your evil religion really is.”

    Sheila responded:
    “Well, it’s a classic move by you to rip a quotation out of context. Who is it you’re listening to? It makes no sense for you to drop what you think is a bombshell when all you’ve done now is make yourself look more foolish because you never considered that Google just might have Schweitzer’s book on line.

    Anyone who cares to can read further down the chapter and see that Schweitzer was referring to the historic Jesus as He was portrayed by the modern theological historians of his own time. His thought was that “That” Jesus never existed… His point was that we end up molding Him according to our modern way of thinking categorically. We essentially risk minimizing the astonishing profundity of His teachings.

    This link begins with the quote you gave us and then explains exactly what Schweitzer was getting at. The man made the cross he wanted on his own grave, for Pete’s sake.
    http://books.google.com/books?id=uzRXxvPsylkC&pg=PA478#v=onepage&q&f=false

    To date, Van still ignores the proof of his irrelevancy. He continues to persecute in the only way he as power to do. That power, in this instance, being the grace of Dr. Brown. Be sure to thank YHWH that Van is not in any governmental position where his bigotry and prejudice can do more harm.

    2 Timothy 3
    12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
    13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
    14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
    15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
    16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
    17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

  4. Van wrote in response to Debbie:
    ““Note- The men of Sodom were already guilty of practicing homosexuality before the angels showed up to pronounce judgment on their behavior. The Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah because of their homosexual lifestyle.”-[Debbie]

    > And did nothing at all when Adolf Hitler killed 11 million innocent people. God does nothing as 30,000 children starve to death every night. But God will throw rocks at gay people and then we expect Christians not to behave the same way as their God. Why?”-Van

    Well let me see, YHWH allows more than enough food to be produced to feed those children and He gave us intelligence enough that we have invented all kinds of technology in transportation and food preservation and vitamins and such…but the wicked human rulers over those starving children that lavish themselves and hoard the food or destroy it and the choices of their parents and grand parents and their pagan cultures have prevented the food from getting there. And the vast majority of relief comes from Bible believing people and organizations.

    If I remember correctly, YHWH sent all of Europe plus the US and Russia to take Hitler out and punish Germany. So just like Sodom and Gomorrah, after the crimes had gotten beyond sanity, YHWH sent judgement. Maybe He would have acted without using humanity if we would have failed to finally come to the rescue. Maybe we are the ones at fault, and not Him, for taking so long to enact justice. And eternity will give perfect justice to all.

    Whenever Van points a finger at YHWH he has three fingers pointing back at himself. The foolish sentiments that he purports to be reason and logic are hollow and self serving and of no real use except to bolster Van’s ego.

  5. >>The stars of the heavens are compared indirectly to the sand of the sea in Genesis. The naked eye can only see a few thousand stars on a clear night. Was YHWH promising to only make Abraham’s descendants a few thousand or numberless to Him? (Hint: He says numberless.)

    Hint: the bible is FULL of hyperbole.

    This is oviously hyperbole.

    Clue: a few million Jews is far short of seventy septillion suns and goodness know main grains of sand!

  6. Greg,

    The hyperbole is equal. As countless as the grains of sand and the stars. The Creator knows how many that is and compared the two. Looking into the sky with the naked eye does not produce anything like an equivalence. And we are not speaking of only the Jews but all the nations that come from Abraham’s loins.

    Ge 35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;

    And history ain’t done with yet! I wonder how many, all told, will be resurrected in the end. If it is even in the tens of millions that would be pretty countless to Abraham. Just like the stars and the sand.

    So hyperbole does not change anything. It is a lot more people than the number of stars that can be seen with the naked eye.

  7. Greg,

    You will like this:
    http://www.npr.org/blogs/krulwich/2012/09/17/161096233/which-is-greater-the-number-of-sand-grains-on-earth-or-stars-in-the-sky

    And it will become obvious that the grains of sand and the number of stars are good comparisons to each other…and if Abraham could count either one, he might eventually have that many descendants. And if he has eternity to count and there is any procreation going on during that time, it could become literally true. I’m not saying that it will be literal or that there will be procreation going on in eternity, but he had more than a few thousand offspring in just a couple of hundred years…way more than the stars that he could see. But the stars that YHWH, and probably Abraham, knew about are very instructive that we should not underestimate the inspired word of YHWH when it comes to actual history and material facts about the universe.

  8. Concerning God’s promise to Abraham about the number of the stars and the sand of the sea, Do you suppose it’s part of God’s plan to have more children born of resurrected people in a new earth?

  9. Since in the resurrection they don’t marry, I guess that answers my above question. So it seems that when the end of this world comes, the number of God’s children will have been determined by then.

  10. Wow… didn’t realize that all of this discussion was going on.

    Regarding the sins of Sodom that brought their destruction:

    Ezekiel 16:49-50
    Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, fullness of food, and abundance of idleness; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. And they were haughty and committed abomination before Me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit.

  11. Regarding the Holocaust:

    The only reason that the holocaust occured came as judgment to the Jews for not remaining faithful to their calling – to be a light to the nations. Broken covenant brings the curses as the resulting part of the conditions.

    “Hear this word that the LORD has spoken against you, O children of Israel… You only have I known of all the families of he earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities” (Amos 3:1-2)

  12. Bo,

    I answered your previous question. (you won’t like my answer!) and asked a different question.

    By the way — I wasn’t trying to avoid you. I know it causes some of you a lot of frustration that I don’t address all your objections.

    I can honestly say that I never purposely avoid debate. I’m here because I like debating these things (even though I get a little weary of the abortion and gay issues.)

    But, the format of this blog is problematic. With a page for every day and sometimes dozens of posts per day, it gets too much for me to follow.

    Out of fairness to you guys, I’ve decided that I will try to go back at least a few days to check if someone has responded to me. But even that can feel like a flood of responses.

  13. Brian R,

    >> The only reason that the holocaust occured came as judgment to the Jews for not remaining faithful to their calling – to be a light to the nations. Broken covenant brings the curses as the resulting part of the conditions.

    I strongly disagree that the Jews brought the Holocaust on themselves: that they (supposedly!) deserved being slaughtered because they rejected the Messiah.

    Ironically, it is this same perverse theology that gave a Christian justification for the mistreatment of the Jews for the centuries leading up to that horrific crime against humanity.

    No. The Jews did not suffer for their own sins. The Jews suffered for the sins of the Nazis and their sympathizers.

  14. Bo,

    Thanks for the link to the sand vs. the stars.

    It is stunning that there are more stars than sand! I’ve walked the beaches of Pacific and the sand Dunes of Arabia — and that is just a small portion of the sand!

    But this is only tangential to my point.

    Bo was trying to make a scientific point about space by using the bible.

    I’ve told him a million times — you can’t take the bible literally that way! 😉

    What you said is surely the point of this passage — it has nothing to do with space. “Stars in the sky” is just a way to talk about a really big number — too big to count.

    The actual numbers — Hebrews and stars are never and will never be even close to each other in an mathematical sense. But hyperbole is not about real numbers.

    And it certainly is not about science!

    When you use the bible to determine science, you get bad science… and bad bible!

    This doesn’t mean the bible is wrong. It just means that it is not science.

  15. Oops…

    _Ray_ was trying to make a scientific point about space and light years by using the bible.

  16. Greg,

    I catagorically disagree with you based upon Scripture. I quoted Amos 3 because Scripture declares that Israel has been punished because they have rebelled against G-d, on the grounds of their choseness.

    Israel went into captivity as a nation becauase they rebelled against the call of G-d. It is quite hard to argue this if you are going to use the Bible as your precident.

    Deuteronomy 28 gives us promises of protection and provision to Israel on the condition if they would obey His voice and follow his commandments. Additionally, from the same chapter, we see the curses that would come upon Isral if they rebelled against His holy word. Hence, according to G-d’s Word, Israel would not suffer judgment if they remained faithful to their covenant promises.

    I’ll leave the same quote once again to validate this truth.

    “You only have I known of all the families of he earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities” (Amos 3:2)

  17. Brian

    >> I catagorically disagree with you based upon Scripture.

    _Your interpretation_ of scripture.

    And, an interpretation that I doubt many serious scholars share.

    I am no expert on Amos but I did take a college class on the minor prophets and my professor never mentioned the Holocaust when we were going over Amos. So, I you may be in a minority, even among Evangelicals to think that Amos was talking about the Holocaust.

    Or do you just think that Amos applies to anything an everything bad that happens to the Jews?

    – – – – – –

    What about my point that your theology was a self-fulfilling prophecy for the Holocaust?

    As in: “The Jews deserve the wrath of God for rejecting the Christ. See! The Holocaust proves it!” (Ignoring the fact that the very people with this theology were the ones who perpetrated the Holocaust! It’s cruelly circular. )

    If, instead of the man-made, sinful Holocaust, it was a natural disaster — you might have a better time arguing it was God.

    But it was sin. The German’s sin. Not the Jews’ sin.

    – – – – – —

    Not to put too fine a point on it:

    Besides rejecting the Christ — what else did the Jews do wrong to deserve the sadistic death of millions? Nothing I can think of. If you ask me, the Jews are usually a pretty good influence on the societies they live within. This would include Europe before WWII.

  18. Greg,

    Here is what you are missing. The number of stars that can be seen with the naked eye is only a few thousand (about as many as the number of golf balls that will fit in a 5 gallon bucket or two). The number of grains of sand on the smallest of beaches that can be seen with the naked eye is billions and billions. If a bronze age writer was only as knowledgeable as you say, he would not compare the two in the same hyperbole because there is a drastic difference to the naked eye. He could use one to say that you’ll become a big tribe and the other to say that a you’ll become a great multitude beyond numbering. Now if YHWH really did inspire the words of the Bible, then we would expect that there would be at least some instances that would reflect things well beyond bronze age knowledge and even ours.

    YHWH used both figures of speech to say that Abraham would become a great multitude because He knows that there were countless stars as well as countless grains of sand. (Estimates range from twice as many stars to 10 times as many…very comparable, I would say, compared to the visual comparison.) If He had only used these idioms separately we could mark it up as only hyperbole, but He used them together also to indicate the same thing. You and I, in our scientific world might use both figures of speech to mean the same thing because we know that there are countless stars and countless grains of sand. We would not say, “I will make your descendants as numerous as the golf balls that fill a 5 gallon bucket. (approximately 2300)” to mean the same thing as if we said, “I will make your descendants as numerous as the grains of rice that would fill a 5 gallon bucket. (approximately 1,000,000)” There is a drastic difference. And that difference is nothing compared to the difference between the visible stars and the visible sand.

    You just do not believe that YHWH’s word is completely true and that it contains numerous examples that our scientific investigation is just recently discovering to be true. You trust science more than YHWH’s word. You trust 20th century western culture more too. If you won’t see, I cannot make you see. Just like the abortion and homosexual debates…you do not want it to be the way the Bible says it is. No amount of scripture will change your mind because you have decided against scripture and with current culture. I will now go see if you answered me concerning Messiah being a living human from conception.

  19. Greg,

    Since you said that you would not check back on our conversation about when are we human, I am coping my post there to here for your convenience.

    Greg,

    I will explain then quote from Luke to show proof of my statements. Please read both carefully.

    Mary left immediately after the message from the angel.

    Luke 1
    38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
    39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;

    John the baptist recognized Messiah in Mary’s womb. Messiah was only a few days gestational age. The Holy Ghost filled Elisabeth and confirmed that Messiah was in fact alive and human at this very early stage.

    40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
    41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
    42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.

    It has only been a few days since conception. The Holy Ghost communicates to and through Elisabeth that Mary is already a mother and that the child is her master.

    43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

    This all happened before Mary told her about it for it was the first sound of Mary’s voice that started the whole Holy Ghost experience. Blessings were pronounced on the brand new mother and the brand new baby human…not on a cluster of cells that might one day be a baby human.

    44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy.
    45 And blessed is she that believed: for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord.

  20. Greg,

    The problem with your argumentation is – you have presented none. You speak of my intrepretation, however the citation is accurate.

    G-d has always used nations and instruments to judge Israel throughout their history. You are failing to acknowledge a fundamental truth, and that is the Holocaust could not have happened to Israel if they remained faithful to their covenant calling. The Holocaust was judgment upon the Jews, by the arm of Hitler. There is “absolutely” no way around this truth.

    The calling of G-d that brings blessing also cuts with a two-edged sword that calls for a greater accountability.

    You can reject this truth based upon your philosophical reasonings; however, I’d be more intrested to hear your objection from Scriptural evidence.

  21. Greg,

    BTW… You question my intrepretation in light of scholarship, of which I would more than welcome. In point of fact, I’d bet my bible that you would be the one in the minority on this. Present your case, my friend.

  22. Bo,

    I think we are coming closer together in what you will have “descendants like the star” means.

    It means: more than you can count.

    But here is where we part:

    It is NOT science. It is not even factual, as literal math, whether you use either visual stars or actual stars.

    BUT IT IS TRUE: Abraham had more descendants than he could count.

    This is my ultimate point: If you use the bible for a way it is not intended — you are misusing the bible.

    And the bible was not intended to be a science text book.

    I believe in the bible — so much — that I respect it enough to use it as intended by God — to help me live a righteous life.

    Not science.

  23. Bo:

    >> No amount of scripture will change your mind

    This is just an absolutely wrong statement.

    (and risking the sin of judgmentalism)

    I have changed my mind a lot of times based on scripture.

    But this is true: If the bible is silent on a subject, you can cut-and-paste all the verses you want — the bible remains silent on a subject.

    The bible is silent on the issue of whether life begins at conception or not.

    I would counter-argue with you — it disrespect the bible to force it to say what YOU want it to say based on, let’s say, the current “Culture Wars.” I respect the bible more than that.

  24. Brian,

    _You_ claim that Amos foretold the Holocaust as a judgment of God — the burden of proof is on you.

    Amos has a historical context and it isn’t WWII. If you claim it is, you need some scriptural indications. Especially considering the moral ramifications of your belief (that the Jews deserved the Holocaust.) The one verse you used, certainly did not make your point.

    As for my general position on why people suffer my scriptural basis the whole Book of Job.

    We have a whole book in the bible which addresses this very issue: we can’t know why good people suffer.

    When you blame the Jews for the Holocaust, you are like the friends of Job… WHO WERE WRONG.

    – – – – – –

    Can we at least agree on this?: it is a sin to perpetrate a Holocaust.

    This was the Germans’ sin. The Jews did not do that.

    No where in your post did you ever blame the Germans! It was all on the Jews. This is just seriously messed-up moral reasoning.

  25. Brian,

    >> There is “absolutely” no way around this truth.

    Your belief that God used Hitler to punish the Jews is not “absolute truth” by any definition of that word.

    It it wild speculation on your part – solidly in the tradition of European anti-Semetism.

    It is this kind of “_I_ know exactly the mind of God. You are categorically wrong if you disagree with me.” thinking that leads the church, again and again, down wrong paths.

  26. Brian,

    As I was eating breakfast, it occurred to me that you have a huge historical problem with your belief that the Jews brought the Holocuast on themselves through their disbelief.

    What about the other people who died in the Holocaust. While it was mostly Jews, Gypsies, communists, gays, Polish Christians (lots!), even Evangelicals also marched into the showers. Men, women, the elderly… little children.

    Was this also punished for being “out of covenant” with God?

    And what about the prisoner of war camps which were a horror, also? There was MANY a good, bible-believing church in America who lost a born-again, fellow Christian as a POW.

    Can you find a bible verse in Amos or Deuteronomy which puts the blame on them?

    Your position is HUGELY PROBLEMATIC HISTORICALLY and, frankly, cruel. You blame the victims.

    No. I’ll go with the Book of Job to help understand horrors like the Holocaust. (That, and compassion.)

  27. Greg,

    You did not answer post 70. I would like a point by point answer as the passage does speak to how early life begins. But if you are going to continue to evade and claim that the passage has no merit in knowing when life begins, just answer 5 questions:

    1. How close to conception was Mary when she was prophesied over by Elisabeth who called her a mother and the child in her womb master?
    (38 And Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
    39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;)

    2. What percent of abortions happen after this point in the pregnancy today?

    3. Do you think that the Bible says that Elisabeth knew by revelation from the Holy Spirit that Mary was pregnant with Y’shua.?
    (40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
    41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
    42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
    43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?)

    4. Was it by the Holy Spirit that he was filled with while in the womb that John the Baptist knew?

    5. Should Mary have the right to get an abortion at this very early stage?

  28. Greg began at post no 2 by making fun of the use of apologetics. No one claims that someone is saved directly as a result of having a conversation about evidence, etc. I’ve never heard Zacharias, Geisler et al suggest this. What they do say is that apologetics explains why my faith is an informed one. It’s quite a surprise to many people that there are good arguments FOR the gospel.

    Christians can make a few observations, and let God do the rest. Greg may see this as useless because he has not seen immediate results. But we are obliged to be prepared to present an answer/defence/spologia/testimony. That’s a matter of obedience to God (I Pet 3:15) and faith in His power to water the seed.

    As a new Christian, one might do anything in a naive or less adroit way, but that does not negate the worth of the activity. I can see that my apologetics at 20 was cringeworthy. A lot of what I did back then was clumsy.

    I value what Dr Brown does on his show to celebrate and model the full range of spiritual disciplines.

  29. There’s so much to think about when we think about the judgment of God and sin.

    There’s a verse in Proverbs that says that Blessed is the man that feareth God always. He shall not be visited with evil.

    I’m not sure where it is but am quite sure that promise is in there.

    So, is there any man that has always feared God?

    The only one I can think of is Jesus. Was he ever visited with evil? Yes, but not for anything he deserved on account of any wrong he ever did, for he did no wrong, ever.

    So do we ever suffer for the sins of others? Will God allow this for our perfection? Will God allow injustices to come to us as a test? Is God interested in us becoming more like Jesus?

    If the holocaust was judgment against Israel, then we should know that God wasn’t done with them yet.

    Is he done with us yet?

  30. Greg,

    You are missing the major point to this which is a Scriptural concept that does not change. G-d has a covenant with Israel, and this covenant has both blessings and curses that are inherent within it. There are undeniable pronounced blessings of provision and protection from YHVH for remaining faithful, and there are curses that come with disobedience. Do you understand this fundamental concept or not, because if not there is no need to continue beyond this basic truth?

    Notwithstanding, you have difficulty in understanding that the words of G-d stand sure, in that His statement in Amos remains having been written along with the rest of Scripture, to include what was declared in Deuteronomy. Again, take a look at Israel’s captivity to Babylon, why did this happen? It was because of their unfaithfulness, thus they were judged for 70 years on the grounds of this very truth. Additionally, G-d used the arm of the Assyrians to judge Israel for their sins. What of the destruction of the second temple through the instrument of the Romans, and in 135 ce., the massive slaughter of the Jews, from which they ceased to be a nation, wherein over one million Jews were killed? Did this come from G-d’s promised blessings upon their lives? Jesus desired to gather them under his wings, but they were not willing, thus they were judged as a nation.

    So we come to the Holocaust, could this have happened if they remained true to their covenant calling, or was this somehow different from all the other judgments against the chosen people? Your misconstrued problem for yourself arises in that you have focused on the instrument and have ignored the state of the people of Israel. It is a historical fact that the majority of the Jews were more secular then they were faithful to their calling, just as it is today. Your anti-Semitic claim against me has also been levied against the NT writers as well, so I am familiar with your claims, as they are nothing new.

    “You only have I known of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities” (Amos 3:2).

  31. Hasn’t the old covenant God had with Israel passed away because of Jesus Christ, his sacrifice on the cross, his resurrection, ascension, and the giving of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, or are some men still under the old covenant because they have decided to still be under that?

  32. Ray,

    The old covenant cannot pass away until heaven and earth pass away.

    Matthew 5
    17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
    18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

    Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

    Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

  33. Shalom, as I stated before in my comment above I made Jewish and Hebrew references to my position. I will not repeat my comments but I feel you, Benjamin Warkentin and Bo, have not refuted my sources.

    Also in the DSS you will find the term “Sons of God” in reference to Israel in Deut.32:8. The RSV correctly translates this passage.

    I already explained the context from Genesis chapters 4 and 5 leading up to 6.

    Also the term “Angels or Angel” is a bad translation and should be read “messenger or messengers” in the New Testament. That term can be used of both men, God and the created beings in heaven.

    Thanks and shalom.

  34. Dr Al Garza,

    I believe you are right about the “sons of God” being men, those who called upon the name of the Lord, and walked by the spirit of wisdom which God gave to God fearing men. (Gen 6)

    This seems to me to be the explanation which makes the most sense.

    I believe there is a certain “sound”, that we need to learn to listen for, the sound of the prophetic voice in scripture.

    To call men sons of God says a lot. It can speak the will of God quietly, yet in volumes of speech.

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