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  • Pre-trib Rapture Call-in Day

    June 25, 2013 | 72 Comments

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    Dr. Brown invites all listeners who hold to a pre-trib rapture to call in and present their strongest scriptural arguments for a pre-trib rapture, and Dr. Brown will explain why he has not held to this view for more than 35 years. But this will be a show for edification, not division! Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

     

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let us unite around the fact that we are longing for the return of the Lord and that now is our time to make a lasting impact for Him and to be ready for His return.

     

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The New Testament talks a lot about the return of Jesus.  Are we looking forward to His return with expectation, faith, and anticipation?

     

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    Comments

    72 Responses to “Pre-trib Rapture Call-in Day”

    1. Jason
      June 25th, 2013 @ 11:45 am

      I was wondering what your opinion was on the woman and her child in the wilderness for 3.5 years in rev 12. What future events do you think it represents? Also do you think it could mean that God will hide his anointed for half of the tribulation period? Thank you and may Jesus bless you!

    2. Sheila
      June 25th, 2013 @ 1:00 pm

      I downloaded Google Chrome so I really hope I can listen live today! We’ll see.

    3. Peter Pellerin
      June 25th, 2013 @ 1:02 pm

      Praying for a good show today…

      Unfortunately I will not be able to call in (work). I would probably not be able to communicate clearly on live radio anyway :) .

      I would like to make a few quick points.

      One point that scholars make concerning the pre trib rapture is that the early church did not teach this clearly anywhere. While this is true, it is important to understand that the recipients of prophecy did not usually understand in detail how it was going to be fulfilled. Daniel was very troubled by His visions and he was told to seal up the Words until the time of the end (Dan 12). I doubt that John understood in detail the visions he received in the book of Revelation. I do not think that anyone understands them fully, but as we are getting closer to the fulfilment it is possible we have better ideas of how some of these things are going to be fulfilled than the apostle did himself.

      I know others (such as Dr. Brown) see it differently, but I am convinced a clear picture has been painted for us concerning the church in the book of Revelation. Revelation 4 through the end of the book appear to be events that happen after the “things which are” in Revelation chapters 2-3. When you come to Rev 4-5, there are hints throughout these passages that the church is now in heaven. John is taken up to heaven to see things that are going to take place “after this”. After what? A detailed study of the 24 elders is suggestive to many that the church is in heaven and rewarded. The song of the redeemed is sung in Rev 5:9-11. We cannot be dogmatic about these interpretations, but these could be taken as strong hints that the church is now in heaven and rewarded. This taken together with the fact that church is not clearly mentioned in Revelation chapters 4-18 is very suggestive. The message of Rev 13:9 is no longer to the churches. The focus of the book shifts from being all about Jesus and His relationship to the church to being on Israel and judgment coming to the nations. There is no discussion of the church being protected from the judgments of God that are falling on the earth. The church simply isn’t discussed. One scholar has noted that the silence concerning the church in Revelation 4-18 is deafening.

      In the end, a discussion of the pre trib rapture is really a discussion of ecclesiology. How we define the relationship between Israel and the church in the tribulation and in millennium.

      Another point that scholars have made is that “Coming” is not necessarily a technical term for the day Christ returns to earth. It could be used both to His coming to gather His people to Himself and of His coming to defeat His enemies and set up His kingdom. The events of his 1st coming lasted 33 years. The events that lead up to His 2nd coming are going to last more than one day.

      My only point in writing all this is that it is often stated that there is no evidence for a pre trib rapture.. that is a fabrication of dispensationalists (or of MacDonald… a total myth by the way). This is unfortunate and it could not be further from the truth. For those who are open to seeing it, there is a picture painted by the book of Revelation that can be interpreted to support a pre trib rapture. It may not be correct, but it should not dismissed so easily. Both sides of the debate need to have much more humility concerning their position.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    4. Sheila
      June 25th, 2013 @ 1:05 pm

      Yeap! I’m listening–not calling in–just listening.

    5. Eliyahu Moshiach
      June 25th, 2013 @ 1:18 pm

      Can I call in just to listen live. I don’t really have anything to talk about. I don’t really know what all this pre-,post-,mid-, stuff is all about.

    6. steve
      June 25th, 2013 @ 4:03 pm

      I would call in and defend it, but I abandoned it as not Biblical. after reading the Bible for myself, I became a post tribber

    7. Sheila
      June 25th, 2013 @ 4:05 pm

      Hi again, Eliyahu!

      The expressions are used to describe whether one believes the Church, the Body of Christ, is caught away, “raptured,” (which is not in the Bible but is the expression used in place of the harpazo of 1 Thess. 4:17), “before” the triubulation, (pre-tribulation), “midway” between the seven year time frame, (mid-tribulation) or that we’re not “caught away” until after the tribulation which would make them “post-tribulationalists.”

      I’m of the post-tribulation camp. I believe we don’t experience the harpazo until all of Messiah’s Church is gathered together. That would be one time and one time only at the same time as the wrath of God falls on those who hate Him, which I believe happens at the end of the age just before the 1000 year reign of Messiah begins.

      Hope that helps. There’s a little more to the millennial theories but that’s the basic outline of the pre, mid and post theories.

      Harpazo = caught away = raptured. The Greek lexicon number is G726.

    8. Donna
      June 25th, 2013 @ 8:03 pm

      Dr Brown,
      I am leaning towards post-trib. rapture and am presently attending a Bible study class on Revelation. Most of the participants are pre-trib rapture people and they keep stating the the “Elect” is referring to Jewish believers only – who will come to believe during tribulation. Where are they getting this and where can I go to show that it is referring to all believers? thank you so much.

    9. Peter Pellerin
      June 25th, 2013 @ 10:48 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      You will be happy to know that I finally got my wife listening to the line of fire this week. We also listened to Bob Gladstone messages on the internet. We have… You are the fire! Burn… stuck in our heads :) .

      I listened to most of today’s show. I will finish the rest tomorrow. I know you don’t have much time to interact on the boards.

      The show generated many questions, but I will start with just one.

      You clearly articulated that you believe in a post trib rapture, along with a literal 1000 year millennial reign followed by a final rebellion.

      Who is left on earth to populate the millennium in your view if all believers are changed? Are unbelievers allowed into the kingdom?

      Blessings,
      Peter

    10. Dan1el
      June 25th, 2013 @ 11:01 pm

      Peter Pellerin,
      I’m no Dr. Brown, but I would take a look at Daniel 7 where it says that only the fourth beast will be killed but the first three (while stripped of their dominion) will be left on the earth.

    11. Ted Malone
      June 25th, 2013 @ 11:43 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      I first wanted to say that I truly appreciate all the good work you do in so many areas of apologetics and standing against the immorality of our day. The issue of a pre-trib rapture is about the only area where we disagree as far as I know, which of course is why I’m responding today, LOL!

      The biggest reason for their being a 7 year tribulation is in the book of Daniel and his prophecy of 490 years being balloted towards Israel and 7 more years of that prophecy remaining to be fullfilled. Whether your pre-trib, mid-trib or post-trib, that’s the basis for there being any tribulation. In light of that, it makes perfect sense that Israel would be on earth to suffer the judgements that are described in Revelation, just as they were on earth to suffer previous judgements in the Old Testament, the end of it being that they will finally, as a nation, come to belief in their Messiah. That the Church, being distinguished as a seperate entity from Israel, would not be here on the earth during that 7 year period only makes logical sense, as that 7 year period doesn’t take place for the Churches sake, but for Israel’s sake. That there’s no mention of the Church after the first few chapters of Revelation would seem to indicate that the Church is no longer in view at that point.

      But related to that is, I believe, a flawed take you have on the passage in Thessalonians, chapter 5. in verse 3, where it says the people on earth will be saying “peace and safety” and then sudden destruction comes upon them would clearly indicate, if you believe in any kind of tribulation period, that they wouldn’t be saying that during the day that Christ comes back to earth to destroy the wicked, as the people on earth will up to that point have experienced the 7 seal judgements, 7 trumpet judgements and the 7 bowl judgements! Not much “peace and safety” going on around that time, eh? No, they clearly are saying “peace and safety” at the begining of the Day of the Lord, which isn’t a single day event as it seems you suggest it is, but a Day that covers the entire 7 year tribulation.

      There’s more to be said here, but that’s all for now! Thanks!

    12. Ted Malone
      June 25th, 2013 @ 11:49 pm

      Meant to say “alloted to Israel”, not balloted. Should’ve proof read, LOL!

    13. Brian R.
      June 25th, 2013 @ 11:57 pm

      Peter,

      Just wanted to respond to a few of your points that you made. You said,

      “One point that scholars make concerning the pre trib rapture is that the early church did not teach this clearly anywhere.”

      This is indeed an important point of evidence to take to heart, in that the early Church Fathers actually did speak of the Second coming of the Lord and tribulation, and they “never” put it in the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint. They actually placed both of the events at the same time, and they have come to this conclusion based upon the reading of Scripture itself. This is also the same view as held by the Reformers, Methodist and Puritans alike. In point of fact this was the consistent message throughout all of church history.

      It must also be noted that the Second coming has been spoken about throughout the entire N.T. and not just the book of Revelation. However, in regarding the book of Revelation, I do appreciate your acknowledgement that the rapture of the church is suggestive and is not explicitly stated, hence this must be understood in that context. However, there is something that is explicitly stated that must be taken in consideration. This is found in the first chapter from which John states “who” he is specifically addressing,

      “John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:” (Rev 1:4)

      Why is this important? Because of his following statement that follows in, vs.7

      “Behold, He is coming with clouds, AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”

      This statement qualifies the entire book, hence a secret rapture taking place after chapter 4 would be a bit contradictory to this statement above. The message was written “to” the Church, stating that everyone, to include “the Church”, will see Him upon His glorious return.

      You also said, “There is no discussion of the church being protected from the judgments of God that are falling on the earth.”

      I would differ with this statement, because the opposite is actually true. What is very noticeable regarding God’s judgments to come is that they are not poured on random people but were specifically pointed only to the ungodly.

      “Then out of the smoke locust came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth…but only those men who DO NOT have the seal of God on their foreheads” (Rev 9:3-4).

      “Then the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God” (Rev 14:9-10).

      “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth. So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth…upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image” (Rev 16:1-2).

      There are many more scriptures that declare the same consistent message throughout, but I don’t want to multiply additional passages for the sake of space and time. Those saints who did die were killed by the devil and not God.

      More importantly, there is document history as to how God has operated in the past when He poured out is wrath on the earth, and this is revealed with the flood. God did not rapture Noah and his sons out of the flood, but He kept them in the midst of it through preserving him in the ark. Again, this is seen when God poured out His wrath in Goshen, wherein all who had the blood on their doorposts and windows were kept in the midst of God’s judgment on the land.

      Just out of curiosity, please give me your interpretation of the following passage that explicitly places the Lord’s Second coming to receive the Saints along with His coming to judge the wicked – all at that same time.

      “and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe…” (1 Thess 1:7-10).

      Shalom

    14. Peter Pellerin
      June 26th, 2013 @ 1:10 am

      Brian R,

      Thanks for your comments.

      It is late :) … but I can’t resist a couple of quick points…

      “This is indeed an important point of evidence to take to heart, in that the early Church Fathers actually did speak of the Second coming of the Lord and tribulation, and they “never” put it in the pre-tribulation rapture viewpoint.”

      It is very important to understand when making these sorts of statements that the early church Father’s did not really make a detailed study of eschatology. You will not really find any evidence in the early church Father’s that God still had a plan for literal Israel in the land of Israel? Do you believe this is the case.

      As a side note, the best book I have seen on the church Father’s view of the future role of Israel is the book “Has the Church Replaced Israel” by Michael Vlach.

      Another thing to note is that the book of Revelation came after all the other apostles were dead and it does not seems that it was slow to gain acceptance in much of the church.

      “You also said, “There is no discussion of the church being protected from the judgments of God that are falling on the earth.”
      I would differ with this statement, because the opposite is actually true. What is very noticeable regarding God’s judgments to come is that they are not poured on random people but were specifically pointed only to the ungodly.”

      None of the verses you quoted after these statements clearly place the church on earth during this period. Those who have the seal of God on their forehead are the Israelites who were sealed in Rev 7:3-4. They are being protected from these judgments.

      Dr Brown quoted often Isa 26:19-21. The book of Revelation talks about those who are going to be protected in the wilderness (Rev 12:6). I believe this woman who flees to the wilderness and is protected is Israel and not the church. The church did not give birth to Jesus (read all of Rev 12).

      As far as your comments on Rev 1:7. Who are the people groups addressed specifically in that verse? Is the church mentioned?

      As far as your last question is concerned, I would say that 1 Thess 1:7-10 is speaking of events that are going to happen in “that Day”. They may not all be on the same 24 hour day. Paul fills in more details on these events in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2. There is much debate on how much time should be included in the “day of the Lord”. Is it just a 24 hour period? Is it 7 years? Is it 3.5 years? Is it 7 years plus the 1000 year millennium?

      Blessings,
      Peter

    15. Peter Pellerin
      June 26th, 2013 @ 1:15 am

      Dan1el,

      I am curious if you believe that the beasts that continue on for a season and a time are believers when they enter the Kingdom?

      The question I have for Dr. Brown is this. Is the kingdom initially made up with people who come to faith only after the 2nd coming? If they were believers prior, then they would have been raptured right?

      I fully expect people from all over the world to enter into the Kingdom. Zech 14 makes this very clear.

      Zech 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    16. Joe
      June 26th, 2013 @ 6:38 am

      My comment is to Peter and his last paragraph in which he states that a pre-trib rapture is the “fabrication of dispensationalists.” I am not sure why you think this, but I have been through a Bible Institute, and Bible College, and in ministry for over a generation. Every dispensationalist that I’ve been associated with, (of which I am one), holds to a pre-trib rapture. Am I missing something here? Joe.

    17. Peter Pellerin
      June 26th, 2013 @ 8:33 am

      Joe,

      My only point was that it is asserted by many post tribulationists that you cannot find the pre trib rapture in the Bible. They believe it has it’s origin’s elsewhere.

      I agree that most dipsensationalists believe in a pre trib rapture. This is the case because of how dispensationalists view the church and Israel.

      There are some dispensationalists who are post trib, but this is not common.

      I believe the pre trib rapture is hinted at in the Bible. However, if the distinction between the church and God’s future plans for Israel are blurred, then it is harder to maintain a case for the pre trib rapture.

      In the end, the debate comes down to a question of how you define the church.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    18. Sheila
      June 26th, 2013 @ 10:14 am

      Benjamin and Peter,

      I might as well move our discussion and answer to your question about who populates the earth in the millennium over to this thread.

      Because Scripture says that Messiah will “reign over His enemies” until “all enemies are put under His feet” It also says that Israel will have those who come bowing down to them after the time of Jacob’s trouble is over, that being the last part of the tribulation. I’ve assumed that those who weren’t directly aligned with the antichrist and yet were not part of the Church at the beginning of the millennial reign of Messiah will be those who populate the Kingdom for 1000 years. They and the children who were not yet of an accountable age and who still have the sin in the flesh that they’re born with.

      Scripture also says that we will reign with Messiah and because of those Scriptures I have to accept that there will be people to reign over.

      I’m thinking if any have heard the Gospel and rejected it, they will stay in hades for the 1000 year reign. If, and I don’t think all will have heard by then, they’ve not had a chance to accept, they will live out their days in the millennium. The problem for me arises because of Messiah’s sacrifice and how will that truth be handled (or disseminated) in the millennium?

      Also, there must still be enemies of Israel and of God because satan is able to gather some after he’s released from the pit, which is after the millennial reign of Messiah, Jesus. At which time fire comes down from heaven and consumes them.

      I admit I’ve not been able to work out the Blood of Messiah’s sacrifice and how that will factor in. Ezekiel seems to say that the sacrificial system will be re-instated and Isaiah says the nations will all come up to Jerusalem to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles so…need some help with that part.

    19. Sheila
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:50 am

      As far as I can gather from Scripture, some are neither raptured nor destroyed.

      Supporting Scripture:

      Hbr 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

      Hbr 10:13 — From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

      Psa 2:10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Psa 2:11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.

      Psa 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

      Mat 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

      Mar 12:36 For David himself said by the Holy Ghost, The LORD said to my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

      Luk 1:30 And the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor with God. Luk 1:31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. Luk 1:32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, Luk 1:33 and he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and of his kingdom there will be no end.”

      Luk 20:43 Till I make thine enemies thy footstool.

      Act 2:35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

      1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

      ***

      Promises to the Church:

      2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2Ti 2:11 The saying is trustworthy, for: If we have died with him, we will also live with him; 2Ti 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us;

      Rev 5:9 And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation, Rev 5:10 and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

      Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

      Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

      Israel’s Promises:

      Isa 49:23
      Kings shall be your foster fathers, and their queens your nursing mothers. With their faces to the ground they shall bow down to you, and lick the dust of your feet. Then you will know that I am the LORD; those who wait for me shall not be put to shame.”

      sa 60:1 Arise, shine, for your light has come, and the glory of the LORD has risen upon you.

      Isa 60:2 For behold, darkness shall cover the earth, and thick darkness the peoples; but the LORD will arise upon you, and his glory will be seen upon you.

      Isa 60:3 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising.

      Isa 60:4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip.

      Isa 60:5 Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, [fn] because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you.

      Isa 60:6 A multitude of camels shall cover you, the young camels of Midian and Ephah; all those from Sheba shall come. They shall bring gold and frankincense, and shall bring good news, the praises of the LORD.

      Isa 60:7 All the flocks of Kedar shall be gathered to you; the rams of Nebaioth shall minister to you; they shall come up with acceptance on my altar, and I will beautify my beautiful house.

      Isa 60:8 Who are these that fly like a cloud, and like doves to their windows?

      Isa 60:9 For the coastlands shall hope for me, the ships of Tarshish first, to bring your children from afar, their silver and gold with them, for the name of the LORD your God, and for the Holy One of Israel, because he has made you beautiful.

      Isa 60:10 Foreigners shall build up your walls, and their kings shall minister to you; for in my wrath I struck you, but in my favor I have had mercy on you.

      Isa 60:11 Your gates shall be open continually; day and night they shall not be shut, that people may bring to you the wealth of the nations, with their kings led in procession.

      Isa 60:12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; those nations shall be utterly laid waste.

      Isa 60:13 The glory of Lebanon shall come to you, the cypress, the plane, and the pine, to beautify the place of my sanctuary, and I will make the place of my feet glorious.

      Isa 60:14 The sons of those who afflicted you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall bow down at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

      Isa 60:15 Whereas you have been forsaken and hated, with no one passing through, I will make you majestic forever, a joy from age to age.

      Isa 60:16 You shall suck the milk of nations; you shall nurse at the breast of kings; and you shall know that I, the LORD, am your Savior and your Redeemer, the Mighty One of Jacob.

      Isa 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; instead of wood, bronze, instead of stones, iron. I will make your overseers peace and your taskmasters righteousness.

      Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.

      Isa 60:19 The sun shall be no more your light by day, nor for brightness shall the moon give you light; but the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your God will be your glory.

      Isa 60:20 Your sun shall no more go down, nor your moon withdraw itself; for the LORD will be your everlasting light, and your days of mourning shall be ended.

      Isa 60:21 Your people shall all be righteous; they shall possess the land forever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I might be glorified.

      Isa 60:22 The least one shall become a clan, and the smallest one a mighty nation; I am the LORD; in its time I will hasten it.

      Isa 62:2 The nations shall see your righteousness, and all the kings your glory, and you shall be called by a new name that the mouth of the LORD will give you.

      All of Isaiah 62.

    20. Sheila
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:52 am

      etc., etc..

    21. Benjamin Warkentin
      June 26th, 2013 @ 12:22 pm

      While listening to the first hour I wished I could have called in but I’m in a silent condition at work and am unable to call during show hours.

      But I thought I might respond to a few of the responses during the first hour. Primarily in response to Dr. Brown’s responses. I loved this pre-trib show!

      ‘Secret’ Pre-Trib Rapture

      Dr. Brown said “We are not looking for a secret event where Jesus stealthily takes us out; rather we are waiting for his… appearing! We will be changed when he appears. We will receive final deliverance when he appears!”

      - Dr. Brown’s emphasis was on His ‘appearing’ which is the point pre-trib emphasizes as well. I was getting excited. According to Hebrews 9:28 he ‘appears’ only to believers. He brings salvation from the Tribulational wrath of God since believers are already saved from God’s general wrath against sin/hell.

      28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

      When He ‘Comes’ for the second time, every eye shall see Him.

      1st Caller
      ‘Not appointed to wrath’ Thessalonians. Dr. Brown asked how was it relevant to them in the first century?:

      2 Thessalonians 2 is the reason why this was relevant to them I the 1st century. Verse 2 introduces why he brings up the rapture (our gathering). The Thessalonians had been shaken and troubled concerning false teachers which had proclaimed that the Day of the Lord had come and was happening now. So now we have to ask ourselves why the Thessalonians would be disturbed and shaken that the Day of the Lord had come. If Paul had taught them about a Post-Trib rapture (or Mid-Trib) then you would think the Thessalonians would be Joyful in expectancy of being gathered together to Christ in just a couple years, three and a half to seven years. I would be excited if I knew he was coming in the next few years, not shaken or troubled.

      You would be shaken or troubled if an apostle (Paul) had told you Jesus was going to gather us to him before the day of the Lord arrived (pre-trib) but were being told by false teachers that the day of the Lord was at hand. They were shaken because they ‘had not been gathered’ (“Did we miss it?”), Paul was writing to comfort them that the Day had not come and the evidence was twofold, 1. they had not been gathered yet (pre-trib). And 2. The falling away and revealing of the man of sin had not happened, which takes place at the beginning or just before the Tribulation which was more evidence that the Day of the Lord had not come yet. This was very relevant to them because they were very shaken and troubled.

      Jesus coming in Flaming Fire with His Angels (Second Coming):

      In verse 7 of 2 Thes. 1, Paul invites the Thessalonians to rest with him and other believers who have lived godly lives and suffered tribulation. They will be resting with him (pre-trib) when the Second Coming of Jesus commences.

      Caller 3: Dr. Brown focused on pre-requisites for the Second Coming, the restoration of Israel to the Land in particular.

      - For the Second Coming, yes, Israel had to be restored to the Land. For the Rapture, no, there is no pre-requisite. It could happen at any moment, being imminent. But the Second Coming is at least seven years away since we can determine when the seven years of Tribulation starts by the signing of the seven year covenant.

      Caller 4: Why should the Thessalonians be waiting for His appearing if it isn’t for at least 2,000 years?

      - Dr. Brown responded that Paul was not telling them that they would see His appearing, which really gives credence to the ladies question, but that they were not appointed to wrath. And that they were delivered from Hell. But the context of the wrath spoken of is not God’s general wrath against sin (leading to hell), because believers are already saved from this wrath from the cross. He was speaking of God’s wrath during the Day of the Lord, the Tribulation. That is the wrath they are not appointed to in this context.

      Dr. Brown then said that it would only be relevant to them back then if it was indeed speaking of Hell and final judgment, but that does not fit the context of Paul’s letter, which was dealing with the Day of the Lord. The Thessalonians were terrified that they were in the Days of God’s wrath contained within the Day of the Lord. That is why it is relevant to them, to assure them that they were not in the Day of the Lord.

      Dr. Brown brought up Isaiah 26:20 as evidence that the Church is present during the Day of the Lord.

      20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

      - In short, this is descriptive of Israel’s refuge in the Great Tribulation. A call is issued to Israel in verse 20. The call is to go into hiding ‘until the indignation be overpast’. The term ‘the indignation’ is one of the many Old Testament names for the Tribulation. The believing Jewish remnant is told to hide until the indignation is past. This is also seen in Matthew 24:15-16, as the Jewish people flee into the mountains and in Revelation 12:6, 12-13, as the Jewish people flee into the wilderness. In Micah 2:12, the specific place where the Jewish Remnant flees is the city of Bozrah, which is better known by its modern name Petra. It is not the Church that He is protecting, but the Jewish Remnant.

      Amen to the next comment by Dr. Brown that according to Dispensationalists there will be a massive revival during the Tribulation, in response to the caller claiming there will be no converts during the Tribulation. There will be great multitudes coming to the Lord during those Days.

      Caller 5: Origin of the Pre-Trib Rapture
      The Catholic Caller claimed it originated with a Catholic priest. But we now know that in Church history it had been taught down through the current Church age. Here is one example:

      Ephraem of Nisibis (306-373 AD)
      Ephraem wrote an important sermon “On the Last Times, the Antichrist and the End of the World.” As a prominent theologian and prolific writer of the Eastern Byzantine church, he advocated for a pretribulational rapture position for the church.

      “Why therefore are we ovvupied with wordly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that He may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms the world? Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it it the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see it with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the Day of the Lord!” Because all saints and the Elect of the Lord are gathered together before the tribulation which is to about to come and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins.”

      There are other 2nd and 3rd Century examples as well, such as Victorinus (Well known by 270 and died in 303 A.D.) who expressed a pre-trib rapture.

      Dr. Brown said that it is very clear to him that the Rapture and the Second Coming are the same event. It is also very clear to me that they are two distinct events. To me Scripture clearly teaches the pre-trib rapture. Even so we can walk together in anticipation of the Lord’s Coming.

      I will end this post here. It’s much longer than I wanted or anticipated and I do not want to clutter this thread. Thank you Dr. Brown for hosting this pre-trib call-in day.

    22. Ty
      June 26th, 2013 @ 12:54 pm

      We may need to do like twitter and have a character limit.

      lol. You guys be writing dissertations on these post boards.

      Just kiddng (kind of), your guy’s novels are interesting

    23. Sheila
      June 26th, 2013 @ 1:24 pm

      That’s why I gave up on Twitter. Apologetics in three sentences or less?!

      : > )

      This generation has gotten too used to ingesting only soundbites.

    24. Brian R.
      June 26th, 2013 @ 1:39 pm

      Greetings Peter, (Re #14)

      You said, “It is very important to understand when making these sorts of statements that the early church Father’s did not really make a detailed study of eschatology. You will not really find any evidence in the early church Father’s that God still had a plan for literal Israel in the land of Israel? Do you believe this is the case.”

      What we are really dealing with is exegesis of the Scriptures. For example, I made it a point to note, not just the Early Church Fathers, but I also noted that the Reformers, Methodists, Puritans, etc… all looked at the fundamental key passages of Scripture regarding the Second Coming and gathering of the Saints and did not place it as separate events. Paul had plainly demonstrated that the Jew and Gentile would be “one new man” in Christ Jesus. Keep in mind that the Lord does not have two separate brides, but only one, and the bride that He will return to greet will be made up of both the Jew and Gentile church of the redeemed – one bride, one celebration, one return.

      You also said, “As far as your comments on Rev 1:7. Who are the people groups addressed specifically in that verse? Is the church mentioned?”

      Actually, I qualified this in my previous note in quoting the audience that Jesus declared He was addressing from vs.4, “John, to the seven churches which are in Asia:”

      Hence, He follows in vs.7 stating, “Behold, He is coming with clouds, AND EVERY EYE WILL SEE HIM, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.”

      My approach to reading the Scripture comes in applying the “rule of logic,” through understanding that the writer means what he says. If I were to write a letter to your church and then declare that when I come everyone in the city will see me, it would not be logical at all to imply that your church (the one that I am specifically writing to) will not included to witness my return appearance – especially when I never stated that at all.

      I referenced several verses that show that the wrath of God is poured out only on the ungodly, and you said, “None of the verses you quoted after these statements clearly place the church on earth during this period.”

      Where I differ with you in my line of thinking is that there is no need to have to mention the word ‘church’ in the passages, because that is who John is writing to. I noted Rev 14:9-10, which states:

      “Then the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God” (Rev 14:9-10).

      This follows with, vs.12 stating, “Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.” This indeed, is a wonderful description of the church.

      Regarding the passage of which I asked your exegesis you said, “As far as your last question is concerned, I would say that 1 Thess 1:7-10 is speaking of events that are going to happen in “that Day”. They may not all be on the same 24 hour day. Paul fills in more details on these events in 2 Thessalonians chapter 2.

      In my opinion, that is a far stretch from the specific context of the passage. The subject is in vs.7, with the Lord Jesus being revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, vs.8-9 explain what is going to happen when He comes as the judge, and vs.10 qualifies the previous passages with the statement “when He comes in that Day.”

      Again, it would be a far stretch to attempt to make this something more than what is explicitly stated. There is no inference here, as Paul specifically explained that when the Lord is revealed from heaven He will come as a judge to the wicked, and redeemer to the saints. Thus, I do not see the Scripture pointing to a separate, secret, rapture as distinct from the Second Coming. It just appears to me that it takes a lot more implying and reading into the text to make it fit that viewpoint. However, I leave myself open to what I believe to be true based upon the plain reading that is before me. Thanks.

      Shalom,
      Brian

    25. Ken
      June 26th, 2013 @ 2:01 pm

      I’m not a pretrib guy. By bible ONLY, the scriptures support believers being on the earth during the tribulation. I would much rather keep this view and be prepared spiritually and be wrong, than to be a pretrib believer and be wrong and offended that I’m here when tribulation comes. I think that will be the time when many fall away as stated in Matthew 24:10. That pretrib believer’s faith would take a big hit and turn away from God at that time because of offense.

      Thanks
      Ken

    26. Peter Pellerin
      June 26th, 2013 @ 2:20 pm

      Brian,

      Thanks again for your interaction.

      There are competent exegetes of scripture who make very good arguments from both sides of this. I do not believe that either side should be as confident in their views as they are. I believe that Dr. Brown himself comes accross too confident in his view. I wish I had time to call in. Many of us just can’t participate in these call in shows due to work constraints. It is just not as clear as you think it is. The post trib view also has many difficulties. I am hoping for a response from Dr. Brown on one of the main ones… the question I asked above.

      The thing I want to emphasize again is that very few in all of church history (until the 1800′s) understood that God still had a plan for literal Israel in the land and that Israel would be regathered prior to the 2nd coming. Dr. Brown himself pointed this out. This is taught very clearly in scripture in almost too many places to count, yet for some reason the church was blind to this.

      The tribulation passages in the NT and in the OT have an Israel/ judegment focus.

      Even the Olivet discourse is focused on Israel up until the 2nd coming. Paul focuses on the antichrist coming into a literal rebuilt temple in 2 Thess 2.

      The mention of the 3.5 years in 3 different units of time compared with Dan 7:25 and Dan 9:27 is very strong evidence that there is going to be a literal time period for Israel prior to the 2nd coming. As far as we can tell, very few understood this in all of church history until the 1800′s! A careful reading of all of Dan 12 is very intriguing in light of that fact. Read the description of the time of the end when the wise would begin to understand the prophecies of Daniel (many will be running too and fro… knowledge will be increasing… ect…)

      The very same understanding that led to the discovery that God still has a plan to Israel also logically leads to the possibility of a pre trib rapture.

      All indications are that the Jews who are believers when Christ returns will go on into the Kingdom in their mortal bodies and have children. Israel will be repopulated. There are still so many promises for Israel in the OT that remain to be fulfilled.

      A pre trib rapture explains how all these promises for Isreal can be fulfilled on earth. If the rapture happens at the same moment as the 2nd coming, there are no believing Jews left on earth to go on into the kingdom (or people from the nations for that matter).

      These difficulties at least should have an answer if one is going to be confident in their view.

      I see major differences in Mat 24:31 as compared with 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1Co 15:51-58.

      The last trump can be interpreted as the last trump for the church.

      Mat 24:31 speaks of the elect be gathered together by angels. There is no translation mentioned at all of people on earth in this passage.

      I could go on and on with the differences in the descriptions of the 2 events.

      I admit the possibility that they are one and the same event. However, I believe it is an error to call the pre trib theory and error. Different language should be used. I am purposely trying to avoid that kind of language.

      It does not bother me at all if a brother/sister believes in a post trib rapture …. as long as they are not putting all their energy into building a bunker in preparation!

      The important thing is that we are ready and that we do not divide over this. The way post tribulationists assert their views is often not helpful to that end.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    27. Brian R.
      June 26th, 2013 @ 7:48 pm

      Peter,

      Thank you for your interaction as well, as I appreciate your respectful spirit and exchange. I am from VA, but I am currently out West, therefore I do not have access to my library to look up any specific church history references.

      I just want to note that I have not come to the conclusion of a post-tribulationist view because I am seeking to stand on this position alone, but my view has come from an open look at various text of Scripture without inserting any preconceived opinions as best as possible. This is why I dialogued with you regarding Revelation 1 and the audience Jesus addressed, and 2 Thessalonians 1, to see how you exegeted the passages of which I could consider. I seek to believe what Scripture is saying in its most basic meaning, as opposed to forcing an interpretation, theological or eschatological doctrine based upon inferences. In my opinion, I just don’t believe this to be a good way to establish doctrine at all.

      Notwithstanding, I stand with you in agreeing that this should not come between fellow believers of Jesus, hence we must continue to stand together and pray for the Church, Israel, our land, and the kingdom of God – that His will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

      Grace and Peace,
      Brian

    28. Joe
      June 27th, 2013 @ 4:26 am

      Peter,

      Thanks for the comment and helping me to understand a bit better where you are coming from. By the way, there’s no doubt or “blurred” vision in my mind as far as God having a future for Israel! The older I get, the more I realize that there are not as many “mountains to fight on” as I thought there were when I was younger. By that mean that I realize there are far more unanswered questions than I thought there were, and I don’t know nearly as much as I thought I did. (I learned that through child rearing. :-) But I will never back down from “dying that mountain” of believing that God loves Israel–always has, and that Jerusalem is His most beloved city. Anyone can take a Strong’s concordance and follow the word “Zion” throughout the Psalms and see how much the Lord loves that mount. I believe with all my heart that God has a literally has a future for Israel.

    29. Mark
      June 27th, 2013 @ 5:36 am

      Why is it that no one stated the obvious, unless I missed it?

      1 Thess 4 the Lord comes FOR his Saints.

      At the end of Revelations the Lord comes WITH his Saints.

      Two separate events.

    30. Mark
      June 27th, 2013 @ 5:41 am

      If these are the same event it seems silly to mention them separately in different books with neither one giving the “whole picture”. The truth is this is because they are separate events.

      We just have to face facts that Dr. Brown has blinders on when it comes to Bible Prophecy. No shame in that. Leave prophecy to others.

      I am part of the way through ‘The Real Kosher Jesus’. It is required reading I think that cuts through the fog and shows how Jews who accepted the fact that the Messiah had come, remained Jews not creating anything new, could then morph into all of the anti-Semitic, nonsensical, fake Christian churches we have today. Clearly this is Dr. Brown’s gift. Leave the prophecy to others.

    31. Benjamin Warkentin
      June 27th, 2013 @ 12:15 pm

      I think there is a conspiracy going on. I was just relistening to the 2nd hour of this show and a man who got saved in the army called in and said he had something to bring up to refute the post-trib position. He was about to get to it when Dr. Brown came in and took it to commercial and didn’t bring the man back after the commercials. Hmmm. That might have been the proof!

      ( jesting ;) )

    32. Mark
      June 27th, 2013 @ 6:02 pm

      The “proof” is 1 Thess 4 the Lord comes FOR his Saints. At the end of Revelations the lord comes WITH his Saints. Two separate events. There is not the slightest hint at the end of Revelations that the Lord came for his Saints then.

    33. Peter Pellerin
      June 27th, 2013 @ 10:21 pm

      Sheila,

      Thanks for answering the question concerning who enters the kingdom.

      If post trib turns out to be correct, then it seems that people have to enter the kingdom who do not yet believe the gospel.

      This may make some sense when you read the basis on which Jesus makes a separation in the sheep/goats judgement at the end of Mat 25.

      However, I lean in the direction that those who may be deceived at the end of the 1000 years are those who have been born into the kingdom. These people will have never had to make a choice. The release of Satan will give them an opportunity to make a choice where there is an alternative. Why anyone would reject the King at this point is beyond me.

      Some speculate that the animal sacrifices in the millennium are done as an object lesson of what Jesus accomplished…. as a reminder to people that someone had to die to make the kingdom possible.

      There are passages that suggest is even more than that.

      There are two many passages that speak of these sacrifices for me to think they are just symbolic.

      The really confusing part about this is that Jeremiah seems to suggest that these sacrifices will continue forever…

      ISV

      Jer 33:16 At that time Judah will be delivered and Jerusalem will dwell in safety. And this is the name people will call it, “The Lord is Our Righteousness.”‘
      Jer 33:17 For this is what the Lord says: ‘David will never be without a man sitting on the throne of the house of Israel,
      Jer 33:18 nor will the Levitical priests be without a man offering up burnt offerings, bringing in grain offerings, and offering sacrifices continually before me.’”

      This Levitical preisthood is going to continue forever in some way. The scriptures must be fulfilled.

      There is an OT covenant that is often overlooked:

      Num 25:13 and it shall be to him and his descendants after him a covenant of an everlasting priesthood, because he was zealous for his God, and made atonement for the children of Israel.’ ”

      The descendants of Phinehas were promised an everlasting priesthood.

      Zadok was from the line of Phenehas (Ezr 7:2-5). In Ezekiel, we see that it is the Zadokites who will fulfill the Levitical ministry in the millennium:

      Ezek 43:19 You shall give a young bull for a sin offering to the priests, the Levites, who are of the seed of Zadok, who approach Me to minister to Me,’ says the Lord GOD.

      We serve a God who keeps His promises. There is very detailed desriptions of actual blood sacrifices that follow in Ezekiel. It is hard for me to try to explain this all away as symbolic, but it is also hard to understand why they continue.

      I lean in the direction of believing it is going to happen as described even if I do not understand the reason for it.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    34. Peter Pellerin
      June 27th, 2013 @ 11:19 pm

      From his lack of interaction, it seems that Dr. Brown has other issues that he is occupied with :) . I could sense in this show that this is an issue that Dr. Brown did not even really want to be spending time on.

      Mark,

      I agree with you that the rapture and 2nd coming are not clearly mentioned together in any passages. This seems intentional to me. If the rapture was to occur at the 2nd coming, it is hard to explain why this event is not mentioned in Revelation 19, Mat 24:31 ect…

      One other point I would like to make is that the promise in Revelation 3:10 does not just say that the church will be kept from the testing, but from the time of the testing. How can you be kept from the time of the testing without being removed from it entirely?

      Rev 3:10 Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

      Rev 3:11 Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

      This is clearly language that goes beyond the local church of Philadelphia. These “earth dwellers” are very prominent in the rest of the book of Revelation. This time of testing is for the “earth dwellers” who have rejected the gospel.

      Paul makes this clear:

      2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
      2 Thess 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
      2 Thess 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

      This time of testing is coming on the world who has rejected the gospel. It is not intended for the church. The true church will be kept from the “hour of trial”. This trial is going to be a world wide testing.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    35. Sheila
      June 28th, 2013 @ 8:32 am

      Thanks Peter,

      I’ll pick it up this evening.

    36. Mark
      June 28th, 2013 @ 1:42 pm

      There will always be a remnant to suffer what may come. After the Rapture comes there will be some that will only wake up to the truth of the Lord’s word then and only then. For coming to the truth late in the game they will pay dearly.

      There really isn’t a valid explanation as to why the rapture and second coming are mentioned separately other than the fact they are separate events.

      My main beef in all of this are the people that bring up this ‘The rapture was an 1830s invention’. This is intellectually lazy nonsense. Those that repeat this show themselves to be not very interested in the truth.

    37. Sheila
      June 28th, 2013 @ 3:44 pm

      Peter,

      Just some quick thoughts. You asked, “How can you be kept from the time of the testing without being removed from it entirely?”

      It’s like the Israelites in the land of Goshen. They were separated from the plagues that fell on Egypt. The most awesome and fearful was that of the Passover. The children of Israel were still there only they have the blood of the lamb on their doorposts, so too, we have the blood of the Lamb on our hearts. God knows those who are His.

      They were kept from “the hour of testing” by obeying the Lord. They were saved through obedience to the Word of the Lord.

    38. Sheila
      June 28th, 2013 @ 4:01 pm

      I was thinking of this:

      Exd 11:6 There shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there has never been, nor ever will be again.

      Exd 11:7 But not a dog shall growl against any of the people of Israel, either man or beast, that you may know that the LORD makes a distinction between Egypt and Israel.’

    39. Sheila
      June 28th, 2013 @ 4:10 pm

      Sorry, I was going back up the page when I just now saw that you were actually writing to Mark.

    40. Benjamin Warkentin
      June 28th, 2013 @ 6:20 pm

      The point of what Peter was getting at is being missed.

      “One other point I would like to make is that the promise in Revelation 3:10 does not just say that the church will be kept from the testing, but from the time of the testing. How can you be kept from the time of the testing without being removed from it entirely?”

      You cannot say that the Israelites were ‘kept from the time of the testing’ since they were indeed there in time during the plagues. Yes, they were ‘kept through’ or even ‘kept from’ the plagues/trials. But they were not kept from the ‘time’ of them.

      Revelation 3 says the Church is kept from the very hour of trial. Not from trial, or through trial, but from the very time of it. That is what Peter is driving at.

    41. Peter Pellerin
      June 29th, 2013 @ 2:20 pm

      Benjamin,

      Thanks for clarifying Rev 3:10. I am engineer and not a gifted communicator. Maybe I should stop trying to communicate :) .

      The 7 letters to the seven churches collectively speak to all all churches throughout all history. Each letter is meant for all churches as the phrase “He who has an ear let Him hear what the Spirit says to the churches” indicates.

      The prophetic view of these letters is debated (even by dispensational scholars). However, what is clear to me is that these letters represent the church age. Just like the OT prophets used the historical context as a springboard to speak of things that were going to happen far in the future… Jesus does so here as well.

      Jesus warns churches with the characteristics of Thyatiria to repent or He will cast them into “great tribulation”.

      Jesus warns Sardis that if they will not watch He will come upon them as a theif.

      Jesus exhorts Philadelphia by promising to keep them from the very time of testing that is coming on the earth.

      In the context of the book of Revelation, it seems at least possible (and even probable if you study the phrase “earth dwellers”) that Rev chapters 6-18 lay out the details of that time that He is promising to keep them from the time of.

      The book of Revelation is paints a very clear picture if you follow the outline given in Rev 1:19.

      The things which thou hast seen – Rev chapter 1
      The things which are – Rev 2 -3 (church history).
      The things which shall be here after I(Rev 4-22).

      As we have discussed before in a previous thread, the third state of the book clearly begins in Revelation 4, as the same Greek phase is used for “after these things” as in Rev 1:19.

      Rev 4:1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

      Not only does this verse tell us that we are now in the future part of this book. Interestingly enough, it also paints a picture for us with rapture like language.

      The 7 letters to the 7 churches in the context of the rest of the book of Revelation are powerful evidence that Dr. Brown is simply wrong when he states that there is no hint of a “secret” pre trib rapture in the Bible. There is a reason why the book shifts to Israel language and does not mention the church. God has a another purpose for this period. He is waking up the nation of Israel and protecting them through this time (Rev 12) and He is pooring out judgements on the “earth dwellers”.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    42. Irv
      July 1st, 2013 @ 12:49 am

      [The following was seen on the web. Any reactions?]

      Pretrib Rapture Pride

      Pretrib rapture promoters like Thomas Ice give the impression they know more than the early Church Fathers, the Reformers, the greatest Greek New Testament scholars including those who produced the KJV Bible, the founders of their favorite Bible schools, and even their own mentors!
      Ice’s mentor, Dallas Sem. president John Walvoord, couldn’t find anyone holding to pretrib before 1830 – and Walvoord called John Darby and his Brethren followers “the early pretribulationists” (RQ, pp. 160-62). Ice belittles Walvoord and claims that several pre-1830 persons, including “Pseudo-Ephraem” and a “Rev. Morgan Edwards,” taught a pretrib rapture. Even though the first one viewed Antichrist’s arrival as the only “imminent” event, Ice (and Grant Jeffrey) audaciously claim he expected an “imminent” pretrib rapture! And Ice (and John Bray) have covered up Edwards’ historicism which made a pretrib rapture impossible! Google “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View” and journalist/historian Dave MacPherson’s “Deceiving and Being Deceived” for documentation on these and similar historical distortions.
      The same pretrib defenders, when combing ancient books, deviously read “pretrib” into phrases like “before Armageddon,” “before the final conflagration,” and “escape all these things”!
      BTW, the KJV translators’ other writings found in London’s famed British Library (where MacPherson has researched) don’t have even a hint of pretrib rapturism. Is it possible that Ice etc. have found pretrib “proof” in the KJV that its translators never found?
      Pretrib merchandisers like Ice claim that nothing is better pretrib proof than Rev. 3:10. They also cover up “Famous Rapture Watchers” (on Google) which shows how the greatest Greek NT scholars of all time interpreted it.
      Pretrib didn’t flourish in America much before the 1909 Scofield Bible which has pretribby “explanatory notes” in its margins. Not seen in the margins was jailed forger Scofield’s criminal record throughout his life that David Lutzweiler has documented in his recent book “The Praise of Folly” which is available online.
      Biola University’s doctrinal statement says Christ’s return is “premillennial” and “before the Tribulation.” Although universities stand for “academic freedom,” Biola has added these narrow, restrictive phrases – non-essentials the founders purposely didn’t include in their original doctrinal statement when Biola was just a small Bible institute! And other Christian schools have also belittled their founders.
      Ice, BTW, has a “Ph.D” issued by a tiny Texas school that wasn’t authorized to issue degrees! Ice now says that he’s working on another “Ph.D” via the University of Wales in Britain. For light on the degrees of Ice’s scholarliness, Google “Bogus degree scandal prompts calls to wind up University of Wales,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “be careful in polemics – Peripatetic Learning,” and “Walvoord Melts Ice.” Also Google “Thomas Ice (Hired Gun)” – featured by media luminary Joe Ortiz on his Jan. 30, 2013 “End Times Passover” blog.
      Other fascinating Google articles include “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “X-raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrets,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” and “Roots of Warlike Christian Zionism” – most from the author of “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate documentation on pretrib rapture history) which can be obtained by calling 800.643.4645.
      Can anyone guess who the last proud pretrib rapture holdout will be?
      (Postscript: For another jolt or two Google “The Background Obama Can’t Cover Up.”)

    43. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 1st, 2013 @ 12:17 pm

      lol Peter. I enjoy your posts and am glad for them. And thanks for the great articles and things to consider. Sometimes I will post something, then afterwards when I re-read it I will wish I had clarified even more since when I re-read it I see how I might not have conveyed what I wanted to say in the best way.

      Irv:
      - I have not read Walvoord, Pentecost, Ice or the others except recently in articles. I have read a bit of John Nelson Darby in a book written by a friend of mine, Paul Wilkenson, titled ‘For Zion’s Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby’: http://www.amazon.com/For-Zions-Sake-Christian-Evangelical/dp/1556358075/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372697661&sr=8-1&keywords=paul+wilkinson

      If something hasn’t been taught in over 1800 years, that’s not going to keep me from studying and seeing it’s truth now. Think of the Reformers back in the 1500′s and 1600′s. They were reclaiming scripture and finding out that what they had been taught for the last 1,000 years was not accurate, and true doctrine needed to be re-claimed and re-learned. Such is the case with the pre-trib rapture. It was a much neglected view, specially as the years progressed beyond the resurrection of Christ and peoples hope’s of being gathered to Heaven shifted toward ushering in the Kingdom for God, rather than waiting for His return to inaugurate it.

      With the rise of anti-semetism in the Church and Replacement Theology becoming it’s doctrine (all of Israels blessing are now for the Church, etc), the Church no longer saw the distinctions in Scripture between Israel and the Church. Great men such as John Nelson Darby and those of the 1800′s, free from anti-semetism were now free to see the distinctions between the two. And that shed a whole new light on prophecy and also led the the reclamation of the Pre-Trib Rapture and a great love for the Jewish people.

      Now I want to re-read the book I linked above. It’s a good read.

    44. Brian
      July 1st, 2013 @ 7:25 pm

      Benjamin,

      If the church is supposedly going to be raptured seven years before the Second Coming….

      Who are the “watchmen on the walls of Jerusalem who shall never hold their peace day or night?”

      And who are the “you who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent, and give Him no rest until he establishes and until He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth?”

    45. Brian
      July 1st, 2013 @ 7:26 pm

      Isaiah 62:6-7

    46. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 1st, 2013 @ 8:26 pm

      Hello Brian,

      To answer your question: Jews.

      Context is always key. Who is being spoken of in the Isaiah passage?

      Zion (a physical location)
      Jerusalem (a physical location)
      Forsaken v4.(when was the Church ever forsaken?)
      Land Desolate (physical land)

      The Church was/is never any of the above things. It is not Zion, Jerusalem, Forsaken, Desolate, etc. This is speaking of the restoration of Israel.

      Isaiah 62:1-7

      1 For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Jerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof go forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that burneth.

      2 And the Gentiles shall see thy righteousness, and all kings thy glory: and thou shalt be called by a new name, which the mouth of the Lord shall name.

      3 Thou shalt also be a crown of glory in the hand of the Lord, and a royal diadem in the hand of thy God.

      4 Thou shalt no more be termed Forsaken; neither shall thy land any more be termed Desolate: but thou shalt be called Hephzibah, and thy land Beulah: for the Lord delighteth in thee, and thy land shall be married.

      5 For as a young man marrieth a virgin, so shall thy sons marry thee: and as the bridegroom rejoiceth over the bride, so shall thy God rejoice over thee.

      6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,

      7 And give him no rest, till he establish, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth.

    47. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 1st, 2013 @ 8:29 pm

      More specifically the 144,000 virgin males sealed for ministry during the Tribulation and those who receive the message.

    48. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 1st, 2013 @ 8:46 pm

      Actually I miss spoke. I was focusing on the first part about the description of Zion and Jerusalem, and didn’t take into account the latter portion of the passage. This passage actually describes the Millennial Jerusalem.

      It shall be characterized by brightness and righteousness (v. 1). Her righteousness will be recognized by all the nations of the earth (v. 2a). At that time Jerusalem will be given a new name (v. 2b), the one mentioned in Ezekiel 48:35: Jehovah Shammah. Jerusalem will be further characterized by beauty (v. 3), never again to be forsaken or desolated by God (v. 4a), for the city itself will be God’s joy and delight (vv. 4b-5). To make sure that these promises will be fulfilled, angelic messengers have been placed upon the walls of Jerusalem who entire ministry consists of reminding God of His promises to make Jerusalem the joy and praise of the whole earth (vv. 6-7). The inhabitants of the Millennial Jerusalem are promised that they will enjoy the fruit of their labors, for the results of their labor will never again be taken away by their enemies (vv. 8-9). The declaration is made that the redemption and salvation of Jerusalem is assured, because God is One Who keeps His promises (vv. 10-12).

      8 The Lord hath sworn by his right hand, and by the arm of his strength, Surely I will no more give thy corn to be meat for thine enemies; and the sons of the stranger shall not drink thy wine, for the which thou hast laboured:

      9 But they that have gathered it shall eat it, and praise the Lord; and they that have brought it together shall drink it in the courts of my holiness.

      10 Go through, go through the gates; prepare ye the way of the people; cast up, cast up the highway; gather out the stones; lift up a standard for the people.

      11 Behold, the Lord hath proclaimed unto the end of the world, Say ye to the daughter of Zion, Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him.

      12 And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the Lord: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken.

    49. Brian
      July 2nd, 2013 @ 5:53 am

      Benjamin,

      So the watchmen on the wall, and those who make mention of the LORD, who will continously make intercession, and give Him no rest for the restoration of Jerusalem are:

      “More specifically the 144,000 virgin males sealed for ministry during the Tribulation and those who receive the message.”

      Okay, thanks….

    50. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 2nd, 2013 @ 7:20 am

      Good morning Brian. I added a third post to make mention that I had made a mistake: “Actually I miss spoke. I was focusing on the first part about the description of Zion and Jerusalem, and didn’t take into account the latter portion of the passage. This passage actually describes the Millennial Jerusalem.”

      I apologize for the wrong info in post# 47 and 46. In post# 48 I clarified and retracted the 144,000 comment and stated that they are angelic messengers in the verse by verse look.

      “Okay, thanks….” You’re welcome. I’d love to hear your thoughts on who it is in reference too. Thanks Brian.

    51. Brian
      July 2nd, 2013 @ 8:03 pm

      Greetings Benjamin,

      We would both agree that Zion and Jerusalem do not have peace and her righteousness has not yet shined forth as brightness; hence G-d will not rest until she is restored to the fullness of blessing and glory, and we know that this will not happen until the blessed return of the Messiah and the beginning of the Millennial reign.

      Verse 6 mentions two peoples that have been called to make continual intercession until G-d establishes and makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth. One is the watchmen on her walls, and the second is “you who make mention of the Lord.” They will stand in the gap, crying out day and night until this is accomplished – those physically in Jerusalem, and those of the body of Christ around the world. This coincides with the universal call of Psalm 122:

      Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: “May they prosper who love you. Peace be within your walls, prosperity within your palaces.” For the sake of my brethren and companions, I will now say, “Peace be within you.” Because of the house of the LORD our God I will seek your good. (vs.6-9)

      Hence, in my view, the only reasonable answer to who these watchmen and persons are who make mention of the LORD until the Jerusalem is made a praise of the earth is – the Church.

      Shalom

    52. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 3rd, 2013 @ 7:13 am

      Thanks Brian,

      I will look into this and get back to you next week, I am heading out of town for a week or so and will check back in when I return.

    53. Loris
      July 3rd, 2013 @ 8:42 pm

      1 Corinthians 15:51-52 “Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the LAST TRUMPET. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”

      Matthew 24:19-31 ““IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And He will send His angels with a great sound of a TRUMPET, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

      1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 “For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the TRUMPET of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.”

      Matthew tells us that immediately after the tribulation the church will be gathered with the sound of a trumpet. 1 Thessalonians 4 also tells us that there will be a trumpet while 1 Corinthians 15 tells us that the church will be gathered at the final trumpet. If the church is gathered at the final trumpet (1 Cor 15) and there is also a trumpet at the gathering in Matthew 24 it would mean Matthew 24 is the same event as 1 Corinthians 15 which means that the gathering in 1 Corinthians 15 would be after the tribulation.

    54. Irv
      July 12th, 2013 @ 12:10 am

      [Read the following - and weep - while you still have freedom to do so.]

      PRETRIB RAPTURE DISHONESTY

      by

      DAVE MACPHERSON

      When I began my research in 1970 into the exact beginnings of the pretribulation rapture belief still held by many evangelicals, I assumed that the rapture debate involved only “godly scholars with honest differences.” The paper you are now reading reveals why I gave up that assumption many years ago. With this introduction-of-sorts in mind, let’s take a long look at the pervasive dishonesty throughout the history of the 183-year-old pretrib rapture theory:

      German scholar Max Weremchuk’s work “John Nelson Darby” (1992) included what Benjamin Newton revealed about John Darby in the mid-1820′s during his pre-Brethren days as an Anglican clergyman:
      “J. N. Darby was a very subtle man. He had been a lawyer, or at least educated for the law. Once he wanted his Archbishop to pursue a certain course, when he (J.N.D.) was a curate in his diocese. He wrote a letter, therefore, saying he had been educated for the law, knew what the legal course would properly be; and then having written that clearly, he mystified the remainder of the letter both in word and in handwriting, and ended up by saying: You see, my Lord, such being the legal aspect of the case it would unquestionably be the best course for you to pursue, etc. And the Archbishop couldn’t make out the legal part, but rested on Darby’s word and did as he advised. Darby afterwards laughed over it, and indeed he showed a copy of the letter to Tregelles. This is not mentioned in the Archbishop’s biography, but in it is the fact that he spoke of Darby as ‘the most subtle man in my diocese.’”
      This reminds me of an 1834 letter by Darby which spoke of the “Lord’s coming.” Darby added, concerning this coming, that “the thoughts are new” and that during any teaching of it “it would not be well to have it so clear.” Darby’s deviousness here was his usage of a centuries-old term – “Lord’s coming” – to cover up his desire to sneak the new pretrib idea into existing posttrib groups in very low-profile ways!

      In the spring of 1830 a young Scottish lassie, Margaret Macdonald, came up with the novel notion of a catching up [rapture] of Spirit-filled “church” members before Antichrist’s “trial” [tribulation] of non-Spirit-filled “church” members – the first instance I’ve found of clear “pretrib” teaching (which was part of a partial rapture scheme). In Sep. 1830 “The Morning Watch” (a journal produced by London preacher Edward Irving and his “Irvingite” followers, some of whom had visited Margaret a few weeks earlier) began repeating her original thoughts and even her wording but gave her no credit – the first plagiarism I’ve found in pretrib history. Darby was still defending posttrib in Dec. 1830.
      Pretrib promoters have long known the significance of her main point: a rapture of “church” members BEFORE the revealing of Antichrist. Which is why John Walvoord quoted nothing in her revelation, why Thomas Ice habitually skips over her main point but quotes lines BEFORE and AFTER it, and why Hal Lindsey muddies up her main point so he can (falsely) assert that she was NOT a pretribber! (Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines” and “Edward Irving is Unnerving.)
      NOTE: The development of the 1800′s is thoroughly documented in my book “The Rapture Plot.” You’ll learn that Darby wasn’t original on any chief aspect of dispensationalism (but plagiarized the Irvingites); that pretrib was initially based on only OT and NT symbols and not clear Scripture; that the symbols included the Jewish feasts, the two witnesses, and the man child – symbols adopted by Darby during most of his career; that Darby’s later reminiscences exaggerated his earliest pretrib development, and that today’s defenders such as Thomas Ice have further overstated what Darby overstated; that Irvingism didn’t need later reminiscences to “clarify” its own early pretrib development; that ancient hymns and even the writings of the Reformers were subtly revised to make it appear they had taught pretrib; and that after Darby’s death a clever revisionist quietly made many changes in early Irvingite and Brethren documents in order to steal credit for pretrib away from the Irvingites (and their female inspiration!) and give it dishonestly to Darby! (Before continuing, Google the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site and read “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers” – a sample of the current exciting internetism!)

      Charles Trumbull’s book “The Life Story of C. I. Scofield” told only the dispensationally-correct side of his life. Two recent books, Joseph Canfield’s “The Incredible Scofield and His Book” (1988) and David Lutzweiler’s “The Praise of Folly” (2006), reveal the other side including his being jailed as a forger, dishonestly giving himself a non-conferred “D.D.” etc. etc.!

      Brethren scholar Harold Rowdon’s “The Origins of the Brethren” quoted Darby associate Lord Congleton who was “disgusted with…the falseness” of Darby’s accounts of things. Rowdon also quoted historian William Neatby who said that others felt that “the time-honoured method of single combat” was as good as anything “to elicit the truth” from Darby. (In other words, knock it out of him!)

      Tim LaHaye’s “The Beginning of the End” (1972) plagiarized Hal Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).

      Charles Ryrie”s “The Living End” (1976) plagiarized Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970) and “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).

      After John Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976) brutally twisted Robert Gundry’s “The Church and the Tribulation” (1973), Gundry composed and circulated a 35-page open letter to Walvoord which repeatedly charged the Dallas Seminary president with “misrepresentation,” “misrepresentations” (and variations)!

      “The Fundamentalist Phenomenon” (1981) by Jerry Falwell, Ed Dobson, and Ed Hindson heavily plagiarized George Dollar’s 1973 book “A History of Fundamentalism in America.”

      After a prof at Southeastern College of the Assemblies of God in Florida told me that the No. 2 man at the AG world headquarters in Missouri – Joseph Flower – had the label of posttrib, my wife and I had two hour-long chats with him. He verified what I had been told. But we were dumbstruck when he told us that although AG ministers are required to promote pretrib, privately they can believe any other rapture view! Flower said that his father, an AG co-founder, was also posttrib. We also learned while in Springfield that when the AG’s were organized in 1914, the initial group was divided between posttribs and pretribs – but that the pretribs shouted louder which resulted in that denomination officially adopting pretrib! (For details on this and other pretrib double-mindedness, Google “Pretrib Hypocrisy.”)

      Since 1989 Thomas Ice has referred to the “Mac-theory” (his reference to my research), giving the impression there’s no solid evidence that Macdonald was the real pretrib originator. But Ice carefully conceals the fact that no eminent church historian of the 1800′s – whether Plymouth Brethren or Irvingite – credited Darby with pretrib. Instead, they uniformly credited leading Irvingite sources, all of which upheld the Scottish lassie’s contribution! Moreover, I’m hardly the only modern scholar seeing significance in Irvingism’s territory. Others in recent years who have noted it, but who haven’t mined it as deeply as I have, include Fuller, Ladd, Bass, Rowdon, Sandeen, and Gundry.

      Greg Bahnsen and Kenneth Gentry produced evidence in 1989 that Lindsey’s book “The Road to Holocaust” (1989) plagiarized “Dominion Theology” (1988) by H. Wayne House and Thomas Ice.

      David Jeremiah’s and C. C. Carlson’s “Escape the Coming Night” (1990) massively plagiarized Lindsey’s 1973 book “There’s A New World Coming.” (For more info, type in “Thieves’ Marketing” on MSN or Google.)

      Paul Lee Tan’s “A Pictorial Guide to Bible Prophecy” (1991) plagiarized large amounts of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970).

      Militant Darby defender R. A. Huebner claimed in 1991 to have found new evidence that Darby was pretrib as early as 1827 – three years before Macdonald. Halfway through his book Huebner suddenly admitted that his evidence could refer to something completely un-rapturesque. Even though Thomas Ice admitted to me that he knew that Huebner had “blown” his so-called evidence, prevaricator Ice continues to tell the world that Huebner has “positive evidence” that Darby was pretrib in 1827! Ice also conceals the fact that Darby, in his own 1827 paper, was looking for only “the restitution of all things” and “the times of refreshing” (Acts 3:19,21) – which Scofield doesn’t see fulfilled until AFTER a future tribulation!

      Tim LaHaye’s “No Fear of the Storm” (1992) plagiarized Walvoord’s “The Blessed Hope and the Tribulation” (1976).

      This was when the Los Angeles Times revealed that “The Magog Factor” (1992) by Hal Lindsey and Chuck Missler was a monstrous plagiarism of Prof. Edwin Yamauchi’s scholarly 1982 work “Foes from the Northern Frontier.” Four months after this exposure, Lindsey and Missler stated they had stopped publishing and promoting their book. But in 1996 Dr. Yamauchi learned that the dishonest duo had issued a 1995 book called “The Magog Invasion” which still had a substantial amount of the same plagiarism! (If Lindsey and Missler ever need hernia operations, I predict that the doctors will tell them not to lift anything for a long time!)

      In 1996 it was revealed that Lindsey’s “Planet Earth – 2000 A.D.” (1994) had an embarrassing amount of plagiarism of a Texe Marrs book titled “Mystery Mark of the New Age” (1988).

      My book “The Rapture Plot” reveals the dishonesty in Darby’s reprinted works. It’s often hard to tell who wrote the footnotes and when. It’s easy to believe that the notes, and also unsigned phrases inside brackets within the text, were a devious attempt by someone (Darby? his editor?) to portray a Darby far more developed in pretrib thinking than he actually had been at the time. I found that some of the “additives” had been taken from Darby’s much later works, when he was more developed, and placed next to or inside his earliest works! One footnote by Darby’s editor, attached to Darby’s 1830 paper, actually stated that “it was not worth while either suppressing or changing” anything in this work! If his editor wasn’t open to such dishonesty, how can we explain such a statement?

      Post-1995 – Thomas Ice’s article “Inventor of False Pre-Trib Rapture History” states that my book “The Rapture Plot” is “only one of the latest in a series of revisions of his original discourse….” And David Reagan in his article “The Origin of the Concept of a Pre-Tribulation Rapture” repeats Ice’s falsehood by claiming that I have republished my first book “over the years under several different titles.”
      Although my book repeats a bit of the Macdonald origin of pretrib (for new readers), all of my books are packed with new material not found in my other works. For some clarification, “The Incredible Cover-Up” has photos of pertinent places in Ireland, Scotland, and England not found in my later books plus several chapters dealing with theological arguments; “The Great Rapture Hoax” quotes scholars throughout the Church Age, covers Scofield’s hidden side, a section on Powerscourt, the 1980 election, the Jupiter Effect, Gundry’s change, and more theological arguments; “The Rapture Plot” reveals for the first time the Great Evangelical Revisionism/Robbery and includes appendices on miscopying, plagiarism, etc.; and “The Three R’s” shows hypocritical evangelicals employing occultic beliefs they say they have long opposed!
      So Thomas Ice etc. are twisting truth when they claim I am only a revisionist. Do they really think that my publishers DON’T know what I’ve previously written?
      Re arguments, Google “Pretrib Rapture Secrets” and also obtain “The End Times Passover” and “Why Christians Will Suffer ‘Great Tribulation’ ” (AuthorHouse, 2006) by media personality Joe Ortiz.

      For years Harvest House Publishers has owned and been republishing Lindsey’s book “There’s A New World Coming.” During the same time Lindsey has been peddling his reportedly “new” book “Apocalyse Code” (1997), much of which is word-for-word the same as the Harvest House book – and there’s no notice of “simultaneous publishing” in either book! Talk about pretrib greed!

      This is the year I discovered that more than 50 pages of Dallas Seminary professor Merrill Unger’s book “Beyond the Crystal Ball” (Moody Press, 1973) constituted a colossal plagiarism of Lindsey’s “The Late Great Planet Earth” (1970). After Lindsey’s book came out, Unger had complained that Lindsey’s book had plagiarized his classroom lecture notes. It was evident that Unger felt that he too should cash in on his own lectures! (The detailed account of this Dallas Seminary dishonesty is revealed in my 1998 book “The Three R’s.”)

      Tim LaHaye’s “Understanding the Last Days” (1998) plagiarized Lindsey’s “There’s A New World Coming” (1973).

      More than 200 pages (out of 396 pages) in Lindsey’s 1999 book “Vanished Into Thin Air” are virtually carbon copies of pages in his 1983 book “The Rapture” – with no “updated” or “revised” notice included! Lindsey has done the same nervy thing with several of his books, something that has allowed him to live in million-dollar-plus homes and drive cars like Ferraris! (See my Google articles “Deceiving and Being Deceived” and “Thieves’ Marketing” for further evidence of this notably pretrib vice.)

      A Jack Van Impe article “The Moment After” (2000) plagiarized Grant Jeffrey’s book “Final Warning” (1995).

      Since 2001 my web article “Walvoord’s Posttrib ‘Varieties’ – Plus” has been exposing his devious muddying up of posttrib waters. In some of his books he invented four “distinct” and “contradictory” posttrib divisions, claiming that they are either “classic” or “semiclassic” or “futurist” or “dispensational” – distinctions that disappear when analyzed! His “futurist” group holds to a literal future tribulation and a literal millennium but doesn’t embrace “any day” imminency. But his “dispensational” group has the same non-imminency! Moreover, tribulational futurism is found in every group except the first one, and he somehow admitted that a literal millennium is in all four groups! On the other hand, it’s the pretribs who consistently disagree with each other over their chief points and subpoints – but somehow end up agreeing that there will be a pretrib rapture! (See my chapter “A House Divided” in my book “The Incredible Cover-Up.”)

      Since my “Deceiving and Being Deceived” web item which exposed the claims for Pseudo-Ephraem” and “Morgan Edwards” as teachers of pretrib, there has been a piranha-like frenzy on the part of pretrib bodyguards and their duped groupies to “discover” almost anything before 1830 walking upright on two legs that seemed to have at least a remote hint of pretrib! (An exemplary poster boy for such pretrib practice is Grant Jeffrey. To get your money’s worth, Google “Wily Jeffrey,” also “Morgan Edwards’ Rapture View.”)

      FINALLY: Don’t take my word for any of the above. Read my 300-page book “The Rapture Plot” (available by calling 800.643.4645) which has a jillion more documented details on the long-hidden but now-revealed history of the dishonest, 183-year-old, fringe-British-invented,American-merchandised-until-the-real-bad-stuff-happens pretribulation rapture fad. If this book of mine doesn’t “move” you, I will personally refund what you paid for it.

    55. Irv
      July 12th, 2013 @ 2:24 pm

      [Just ran into this new web article. Reactions?]

      PRETRIB RAPTURE SCHOLARSHIP !

      How can the “rapture” be “imminent”? Acts 2:34,35 reveal that Jesus stays at the Father’s right hand in heaven until He leaves to destroy His foes at the second coming to earth. Acts 3:21 says that Jesus “must” stay in heaven with the Father “until the times of restitution of all things” which includes, says Scofield, “the restoration of the theocracy under David’s Son” which obviously can’t begin before or during Antichrist’s reign. (“The Rapture Question,” by the long time No. 1 pretrib authority John Walvoord, didn’t dare to even list, in its scripture index, the above verses! The same Acts verses were also too hot for John Darby – the so-called “father of dispensationalism” – to list in the scripture index in his “Letters”!)
      Paul explains the “times and the seasons” (I Thess. 5:1) of the catching up (I Thess. 4:17) as the “day of the Lord” (5:2) which FOLLOWS the posttrib sun/moon darkening (Matt. 24:29; Acts 2:20) WHEN “sudden destruction” (5:3) of the wicked occurs! The “rest” for “all them that believe” is also tied to such destruction in II Thess. 1:6-10! (If the wicked are destroyed before or during the trib, who’d be left alive to serve the Antichrist?) Paul also ties the change-into-immortality “rapture” (I Cor. 15:52) to the end of trib “death” (15:54). (Will death be ended before or during the trib? Of course not! And vs. 54 is also tied to Isa. 25:8 which Scofield views as Israel’s posttrib resurrection!) It’s amazing that the Olivet Discourse contains the “great commission” for the church but not even a hint of a pretrib rapture for the church!
      Many are unaware that before 1830 all Christians had always viewed I Thess. 4’s “catching up” as an integral part of the final second coming to earth. In 1830 this “rapture” was stretched forward and turned into a separate coming of Christ. To further strengthen their novel view, which the mass of evangelical scholars rejected throughout the 1800s, pretrib teachers in the early 1900s began to stretch forward the “day of the Lord” (what Darby and Scofield never dared to do) and hook it up with their already-stretched-forward “rapture.” Many leading evangelical scholars still weren’t convinced of pretrib, so pretrib teachers then began teaching that the “falling away” of II Thess. 2:3 is really a pretrib rapture (the same as saying that the “rapture” in 2:3 must happen before the “rapture” ["gathering"] in 2:1 can happen – the height of desperation!). Google “Walvoord Melts Ice.”
      Other Google articles on the 183-year-old pretrib rapture view include “Pretrib Rapture Politics,” “Famous Rapture Watchers,” “Pretrib Rapture Diehards,” “X-Raying Margaret,” “Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” “Wily Jeffrey,” “The Rapture Index (Mad Theology),” “America’s Pretrib Rapture Traffickers,” “Roots of (Warlike) Christian Zionism,” “Scholars Weigh My Research,” “Pretrib Hypocrisy,” “Appendix F: Thou Shalt Not Steal,” “Pretrib Rapture Secrecy,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived,” and “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” – most by the author of the bestselling book “The Rapture Plot” (the most accurate and documented book on pretrib rapture history which is obtainable by calling 800.643.4645).

    56. Peter Pellerin
      July 13th, 2013 @ 5:18 pm

      I just read Margaret Macdonald’s visison at this site:

      http://www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/1975_macpherson_incredible-coverup.html

      I cannot see anything pre trib in this. This is an absurd myth that many will just not let go of.

      Show me one pre trib statement in this vision.

      One more note, long lists of accusations against brothers and sisters in Christ add no value to this discussion.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    57. David Roberts
      July 13th, 2013 @ 9:03 pm

      Being left behind, what the Hebrew scriptures say about it.

      “For the upright will inhabit the land, and those with integrity will be left behind in it.” Proverbs 2:21

      “And he who is left behind in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy, everyone who has been recorded for life in Jerusalem.” Isaiah 4:3

      “because of the abundance of milk that they give, he will eat curds, for everyone who is left behind in the land will eat curds and honey.” Isaiah 7:22

      “In the whole land, declares the LORD, two thirds shall be cut off and perish, and one third shall be left behind.” Zechariah 13:8

      “Then everyone who is left behind of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.” Zechariah 14:16

    58. David Roberts
      July 13th, 2013 @ 9:09 pm

      While in the Matthew 13 we learn that the wicked are taken and thrown in the fire, while the righteous are left behind, as Yeshua said, the meek will (left behind to) inherit the earth, but the wicked will be taken out in judgement.

    59. David Roberts
      July 13th, 2013 @ 9:12 pm

      p.s. I’m not saying Yeshua said, “the wicked will be taken out in judgement,” that was just a final thought I wrote, but Yeshua definitely taught the concept.

    60. Peter Pellerin
      July 15th, 2013 @ 4:13 pm

      I would like to take another look at 2 Thess 2 as it is mentioned above.

      The word “apostosia” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. There are many possible interpretations of this, and I am not dogmatic about any of them. However, in many of the earliest English translations it was translated as “departing” or “departure”.

      This word was not used very much in the Bible. It appears in 2 Thess 2:3 and in the LXX of Josh 22:22. It does not appear often in other ancient Greek writings either. According to the Liddle-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek the word was also used to indicate a “departure” or a “disappearance” in the classic work “Olympiodorus Philosophus”.

      I am not sure if this is what Paul had in mind, but I believe it is possible and that it fits the context well.

      2Thess 2:3 could be translated this way:

      “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the disappearance comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,”

      Contrary to what post tribulationists assert, this makes perfect sense of the context. Paul does not want the Thessalonians to be troubled (2 Thess 2:2). The events that will occur prior the 2nd coming have not happened yet and there is going to be a departure or a disappearence prior to those events. Both 2Thess 2:3 and 2Thess 2:6-7 are talking about things that must happen prior to the antichrist being revealed. Both this “departure” in 2Thess 2:3 and the removal of the restraining force must from the midst must occur. Paul mentions to them that he had taught them these things already? Could the removal of the restraining force be connected with the “falling away” or “departure” of verse 3?

      Many of the options that commentators give for this restraining force do not fit the language that is used here.

      It is interesting to remember what Jesus said in Joh 16:

      John16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. John16:8 And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John16:9 of sin, because they do not believe in Me; John16:10 of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; John16:11 of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged.

      This “helper” came into the world is a sense that He was not in the world prior to the beginning of the church. Jesus said to His disciples that “ye are the light of the world” and “ye are the salt of the earth”. The activity of the Holy Spirit in the church could be the “restraining force” that has to be removed prior to the revealing of the man of sin.

      I like this translation of of 2 Thess 2:7 from the WPNT (Wilbur Pickering New Translation):

      2Thess2:7 For the mystery of the lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He removes Himself.

      It is possible then that Paul is reminding them of the departure or disappearance that he taught them in 1Thess 4. He is also reminding them of events that would be happening on earth following the departure. The lawless one cannot be revealed until the restraining force is removed. The events associated with the lawless (2Thess 2:9-12) are not intended as a testing for true believers, but they are for those who have rejected the gospel.

      Paul is not giving a detailed chronology of events in 2Thess 1:7-10, teaching them generally of things that are going to happen in the time period when Christ returns. He gives them the chronological details in 2Thess 2. Check out the comments in the Expositor’s Bible Commentary (the older one) on 2Thess 1:7. I love Dr. Brown, but I think he is reading too much into 2Thess 1:7-10.

      All of the above may be incorrect, but it is very misleading for post tribulationists to suggest that a pre tribulational rapture cannot be seen in this passage. A pre tribulational reading of this passage is very straightforward.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    61. Benjamin Warkentin
      July 24th, 2013 @ 5:32 pm

      Sorry for the time in responding, I am back from being out of town and my Mother also had a minor heart-attack which has kept me busy, but she is doing much better now so I have some free time.

      Just to look at Isaiah 62:6 being linked to the Church as evidence that the Church will go through the tribulation, the passage argues against this notion. The argument is that the Church is the “watchman”.

      Isaiah 62:6

      6 I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,

      God tells Isaiah and the nation of Israel that he “has” set watchmen on the walls. When this passage was written, the watchmen were present and on the walls continually reminding God of His promise. This disqualifies the Church since the Church does not come into existence for another 700+ years. Also the Church has not always been the friend of Israel. Though in the last couple hundred years Israel has become loved and cherished by a growing number of believers.

    62. Chad Harvey
      July 27th, 2013 @ 12:21 am

      Before we discuss tribulational views in pertinence to the rapture we need to discuss millennial views. I was raised in a background that adamantly taught the pre-trub rapture of the church. While I had a humble and very good pastor, the first time I ever read through the scriptures I was puzzled as to where the scripture was found. I then switched from pre-trib to mid-trib and then from mid-trib to post-trib. That was before I discovered that the discussion needed to go further than just views on tribulation and be extended to views of the millennium. In essence the concept of a pre-trib rapture is something I view as the same escape mentality that 2000 years ago led the Jews to reject Jesus as their Messiah. A clear reading of 2 Thessalonians 1:4-10 completely disproves a pre-trib rapture once and for all. In truth, there need not even be a II Thessalonians to refute the pre-trib rapture idea. A study of the verses I Thessalonians 4:16-17 (which are commonly used in defense of the rapture) in the Greek reveals that when Christ returns we who have believed on him meet him in the air to usher in his kingdom.

    63. Irv
      July 30th, 2013 @ 11:17 pm

      [Bro. Pellerin's July 13 comments will enjoy this web piece I found on Macdonald. They will also enjoy a Google piece titled "Walvoord Melts Ice."]

      Margaret Macdonald’s Rapture Chart !

      “church” RAPTURE “church”
      (present age) (tribulation)

      In early 1830 Margaret was the very first one to see a pre-Antichrist (pretribulation) rapture in the Bible – and John Walvoord and Hal Lindsey lend support for this claim!
      Walvoord’s “Rapture Question” (1979) says her view resembles the “partial-rapture view” and Lindsey’s “The Rapture” (1983) admits that “she definitely teaches a partial rapture.”
      But there’s more. Lindsey (p. 26) says that partial rapturists see only “spiritual” Christians in the rapture and “unspiritual” ones left behind to endure Antichrist’s trial. And Walvoord (p. 97) calls partial rapturists “pretribulationists”!
      Margaret’s pretrib view was a partial rapture form of it since only those “filled with the Spirit” would be raptured before the revealing of the Antichrist. A few critics, who’ve been repeating more than researching, have noted “Church” in the tribulation section of her account. Since they haven’t known that all partial rapturists see “Church” on earth after their pretrib rapture (see the “church-splitting” chart above), they’ve wrongly assumed that Margaret was a posttrib!
      In Sep. 1830 Edward Irving’s journal “The Morning Watch” (hereafter: TMW) was the first to publicly reflect her novel view when it saw spiritual “Philadelphia” raptured before “the great tribulation” and unspiritual “Laodicea” left on earth.
      In Dec. 1830 John Darby (the so-called “father of dispensationalism” even though he wasn’t first on any crucial aspect of it!) was still defending the historic posttrib rapture view in the “Christian Herald.”
      Pretrib didn’t spring from a “church/Israel” dichotomy, as many have assumed, but sprang from a “church/church” one, as we’ve seen, and was based only on symbols!
      But innate anti-Jewishness soon appeared. (As noted, TMW in Sep. 1830 saw only less worthy church members left behind.) In Sep. 1832 TMW said that less worthy church members and “Jews” would be left behind. But by Mar. 1833 TMW was sure that only “Jews” would face the Antichrist!
      As late as 1837 the non-dichotomous Darby saw the church “going in with Him to the marriage, to wit, with Jerusalem and the Jews.” And he didn’t clearly teach pretrib until 1839. His basis then was the Rev. 12:5 “man child…caught up” symbol he’d “borrowed” (without giving credit) from Irving who had been the first to use it for the same purpose in 1831!
      For related articles Google “X-Raying Margaret,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Pretrib Rapture’s Missing Lines,” “The Unoriginal John Darby,” “Open Letter to Todd Strandberg,” “Deceiving and Being Deceived” by D.M., “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” and “Scholars Weigh My Research.” The most documented and accurate book on pretrib rapture history is “The Rapture Plot” – a 300-pager that has hundreds of disarming facts (like the ones above) not found in any other source. To get your copy of this bestselling book, call 800.643.4645.

    64. Benjamin Warkentin
      August 1st, 2013 @ 7:51 am

      Good Morning Irv,

      For an in-depth look at John Nelson Darby and his connection to Margaret check out Paul Wilkinson’s book titled, ‘For Zion’s Sake: Christian Zionism and the Role of John Nelson Darby’:

      http://www.amazon.com/For-Zions-Sake-Christian-Evangelical/dp/1556358075/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372697661&sr=8-1&keywords=paul+wilkinson

    65. Peter Pellerin
      August 1st, 2013 @ 5:59 pm

      Irv,

      Please read M. Macdonalds entire vision for yourself in context. Right at the beginning she connects the “sign of the son of man” to the “Lord descending with a shout”.

      The “sign of the son of man” is clearly a reference to the Mat 24:30 and the Lrod descending with a shout” is a reference to 1 Thess 4:16-18. She is connecting the 2nd coming with the rapture.

      I am not interested in what all the books you list have to say. Show me from the vision itself how it teaches a “partial pre tribulational rapture”. I have read through this vision about 10 times now and I just don’t see it. What I see clearly is that she is equating 1Thess 4:16-18 with Mat 24:30.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    66. Peter Pellerin
      August 1st, 2013 @ 6:28 pm

      Line of Fire staff,

      I am dissapointed that posts #57 and #58 above have been allowed to stay on this site. I am hoping that it has not been read by you.

      In that post many Christian broters and sisters are charged with being dishonest or with plagarism. This is not ok.

      Blessings,
      Peter

    67. Brian R.
      August 1st, 2013 @ 8:52 pm

      Benjamin,

      I pray that G-d will bring healing and strength back to your mother…

      Regarding Isaiah 62, I’d first say that your interpretation of angelic messengers being the watchmen spoken of is indeed a far stretch from the passage altogether.

      You say the church is disqualified, of which I would totally disagree, and that for a number of reasons. First, you must keep in mind that this is spoken in prophetic utterance regarding the last days and the restoration of Israel, and to declare that this not talking about the Church makes no sense at all. After all, is it not the prayers of the Saints that reach the throne of G-d?

      Second, it clearly states, “you who make mention of the Lord,” thus identifying His elect. Actually, the church is the only possible candidate to fulfill this passage. The Jew and the Gentile are the One New Man, through the blood of the cross; hence, it will be a blood bought people who bring ongoing intercession up to G-d until the coming of the Lord and the restoration of Israel.

    68. Irv
      August 2nd, 2013 @ 2:52 pm

      Peter, I’m sorry you’re “dissapointed” with “posts #57 and #58.” (You may have meant to say you were “disappointed” with “posts #54 and #55.”) Not a single pretrib teacher exposed in “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” (found on Google, etc.) has ever claimed that the writer of it lied about or slandered any of the pretrib teachers he focused on. Which means that Peter Pellerin may have evidence that his favorite pretrib teachers (Ice, Strandberg, Jeffrey etc.) have never come up with! It’s interesting that MacPherson’s research repeatedly gets endorsements from top scholars who have no axe to grind either for or against a pretrib rapture, while pretrib “hired guns” like Ice, Strandberg and Jeffrey (where have I seen these names before?) count on only fellow pretribbers for endorsements! Re Wilkinson’s book on Darby (and Margaret) which I haven’t read yet, maybe you can tell me if he includes the part in “The Origins of the Brethren” (by Dr. Harold Rowdon, a top British scholar who’s even a member of the Darby-adoring Brethren!) quoting historian William Neatby who revealed that Darby’s friends had been saying that the only way to get the truth out of Darby was the “time-honoured method of single-handed combat” – that is, knock it out of him! Peter, I recommend that you adopt the “spare tire” rapture view which is the safest one; for info about it, Google “Letter from Mrs. Billy Graham.”

    69. MOISES MONTANEZ
      January 20th, 2014 @ 11:48 pm

      ON Pre-trib Rapture Call-in Day YOU ARE A BIG HELP THANK YOU GOD BLESS

    70. MOISES MONTANEZ
      January 20th, 2014 @ 11:49 pm

      The Line of Fire with Dr. Michael Brown Pre-trib Rapture Call-in Day YOU WAS A BIG HELP THANK YOU GOD BLESS

    71. Jake
      January 31st, 2014 @ 1:37 am

      [Just spied this on the net. Reactions, anyone?]

      Pretrib Rapture History’s Stages

      If a young woman in Scotland hadn’t dreamed up the “pre-tribulation fly-away” in 1830; if a British clergyman hadn’t hijacked her dream and sneakily planted it around the world in the 1800s; if a crooked, jailed-for-forgery lawyer with no theological background hadn’t come out with a reference Bible in 1909 with the same fly-away escapism in marginal notes; and if modern-day rapture robber barons and tribulational tycoons hadn’t found numerous ways (and gimmicks like four “blood moons”) to widely mass-market the same delicious delusion for the masses while breaking sales records, no one could now be into the moonshine, looking up at the moon and saying “Moon, you mush be drunk becaush I shee four of you!” LOL (If none of this had ever happened, no one would have written anti-pretrib articles that are on Google etc., articles like “Evangelicals Use Occult Deception,” “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” “Pretrib Rapture Pride,” and “Pretrib Rapture Stealth.” And no one would have written “The Rapture Plot” – the most accurate, most detailed, and most highly endorsed nonfiction history of the 184-year-old pretrib rapture theory, available by calling 800.643.4645; the author of it will give $1000 to anyone proving there is any deliberate dishonesty in it.)

    72. Irv Spielberg
      February 12th, 2014 @ 12:40 am

      [Below are comments I just sent to the "Hip and Thigh" blog of Feb. 3, 2014 which focused on Dr. Brown:]

      Irv Spielberg on February 11, 2014 at 9:24 pm said:
      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      Sandeen points out in his “Roots of Fundamentalism” that it was the pretribs who, after dwelling in relative harmony at the Niagara Bible Conference alongside posttribs, were the ones who withdrew and formed their own exclusively pretrib conferences and effectively shut out posttrib scholars like Nathaniel West, SRB consulting editor William Erdman, etc. And this cantankerousness and pride is still going on. Whereas posttrib blogs welcome pretribs and their arguments, pretrib blogs overwhelmingly ban honestly questioning posttribs and their arguments – but is “truth” afraid of “untruth”? MacPherson (included above) has stated that if any one word can summarize the history of pretrib interpretation, it is the word “dishonesty” (as in “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty,” one of his many web articles). Thomas Ice seems to be the foremost pretrib defender, but have you truly “vetted” his background and qualifications? I invite you to Google “Be careful in polemics (Peripatetic Learning),” “Walvoord Melts Ice,” “Edward Irving is Unnerving,” “Thomas Ice (Bloopers),” and “Pretrib Rapture Pride.” The PhD that Ice flaunts, BTW, came from a non-accredited school, and the school in Wales from which he desires another “doctorate” has been involved in its own degree-granting scandal! Ice’s unscholarliness and effrontery are two main reasons why posttribs and prewrathers are now strongly opposing pretrib arguments and airing pretrib history’s long hidden dirty linen!

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