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    June 21, 2013 | 88 Comments

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    Have I ever convinced an atheist to reconsider his or her position? How do we respond to the apparent contradictions in the Synoptic Gospels? Are Mormons right about the identity of Yahweh in the Old Testament? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

     

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let’s remember that God pours out His Spirit so that Jesus will be glorified and the world and His people touched.  Why not embrace everything the Holy Spirit is doing?

     

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    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God is a merciful and faithful God who restores when we fall.  How much better though that we do not fall!

     

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    Comments

    88 Responses to “You’ve Got Questions We’ve Got Answers!”

    1. Ty
      June 21st, 2013 @ 4:08 pm

      Thank for your answer regarding Prophet & prohpecy.

      You explained the difference in great & clear way.

      Thanks & God bless you

    2. Greg Allen
      June 21st, 2013 @ 6:05 pm

      I just read Dr. Brown’s article on John MacArthur. This reminds me of my youth.

      I was raised in a fundamentalist church who were very afraid of being “taken over by the Pentecostals” This had happened in several churches in our little town.

      I don’t remember anyone saying it explicitly but I suspect that some people thought that tongues, slaying the spirit, faith healing, etc were demonic.

      It took me a few years but I eventually came around to appreciating the more showy parts of charismatic religious expression, even if I never do it myself.

      Besides it being biblical, I met way too many good Charismatic Christians who were clearly good, sincere people.

    3. S. Johnson
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 10:41 am

      Dr. Brown,

      I have a Jewish related question. My understanding is that the fall separated us relationally from God (as emphasized by the veil in the Holy of Holies). But Jesus has torn the veil such that we have direct access to the Father (Heb. 10:20). Does this mean that devoted Jewish people who do not believe in Jesus, are barred from the intimacy that believers in Jesus have?

    4. Greg Allen
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 10:54 am

      S. Johnson,

      I’ve been doing my personal bible reading in the Samuel books lately and had a question about the ark.

      In the temple, the ark was carefully segregated away from all but the high priest, right? With the utmost care and seclusion.

      But not too much earlier, they were carrying it around to win battles, sometimes even a little recklessly.

      What changed? The building of Solomon’s temple, obviously. Also the change from prophetic leadership to kingship.

      Did a shift also happen in Israel’s relationship to or understanding of God and the arc during those decades?

    5. S. Johnson
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 11:14 am

      Greg,

      Dr. Brown would be a better resource than I am. But in regards to your question, recall that the Ark was covered when transported and carried by means of long poles. So those who carried the Ark were never in direct contact with it; they were separated physically by the poles and visually by the covering. Recall also the incident where the Ark was being transported and appeared to be about to fall and someone reached for it and died on the spot.

    6. Dr. Michael L Brown
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

      S. Johnson, yes, for sure. Please see the chapter “No Near and Yet So Far” in my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

      There are countless thousands of religious Jews with a tremendous passion for God and a deep devotion to His Law — but do they enjoy the intimacy with God we have through Yeshua? Sadly, no.

    7. Dan1el
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 2:08 pm

      Re: Torah-Enforcers

      Those who attempt to use 1 John 5:3 to enforce Torah must begin to realize the context (therefore “definition”) of John’s “commandments”.

      1 John 3
      21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
      ***22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
      ***23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
      ***24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

      These are the same ones which Christ gave:
      i. Love God – Faith in God’s Son is the only way you can love God – “we love God because He loved us FIRST”; “the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave His life for me”
      ii. Love your neighbor as yourself – as Christ loved you.

    8. Greg Allen
      June 23rd, 2013 @ 8:54 pm

      S. Johnson,

      You make a good point — but it still seems like the Hebrews changed their view about the ark over the decades.

      It’s hard for me to imagine, in the post-Solomonic era, the Hebrews running into battle with the ark.

      … but I certainly don’t know and am not an expert.

    9. Bo
      June 24th, 2013 @ 11:27 am

      Dan1el,

      You wrote:

      Re: Torah-Enforcers

      Those who attempt to use 1 John 5:3 to enforce Torah must begin to realize the context (therefore “definition”) of John’s “commandments”.

      1 John 3
      21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God;
      ***22 and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him.
      ***23 And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us.
      ***24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in him, and he in them. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

      These are the same ones which Christ gave:
      i. Love God – Faith in God’s Son is the only way you can love God – “we love God because He loved us FIRST”; “the life I live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, Who loved me and gave His life for me”
      ii. Love your neighbor as yourself – as Christ loved you.”

      The problem with your interpretation is that you fail to realize that love can not be the only commandments in view here, because John is speaking of YHWH’s commandments (plural) and the commandment (singular) of Yahshua to love one another. There is no need to list loving our brother, attached by an “and”, if it is the only thing in view.

      The two great commandments that Messiah cited from YHWH’s law as the motivation behind keeping the other commandments do not abrogate the others. The others still hang on the two and are thus the details of what real love looks like. The commandments in Torah are the definition or real love. We will fail to love correctly if we are ignorant YHWH’s teachings/Torah on what love is.

      For example: There are many unmarried people that do not think that fornication is a sin since they are in love. The problem is that they are not doing love correctly by the teachings of YHWH. There needs to be a covenant in place before cohabiting.

      If we do not know the truth, we will continue to walk opposition to YHWH’s revealed truth in the whole of scripture. Loving YHWH with our whole being cannot be done correctly without obedience to His every word. Loving our neighbor cannot be done correctly without loving YHWH correctly.

      Besides all this, most everybody that calls themselves believers keep 9 out of the 10 commandments and probably about 90% of the rest of Torah. Hopefully they are doing so out of love for YHWH and their neighbor. They have been instructed correctly in about 9/10ths of YHWH’s word…why not step up to speed on the last tenth?

      It is Keeping YHWH’s commandments and the testimony of Yahshua that is in view in John’s writings, and not one without the other.

      Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

      Shalom

    10. Dan1el
      June 24th, 2013 @ 11:38 am

      Bo,
      Never once does it mention Torah; the fact that he switches from using “commandments” to “commandment” just shows how you cannot have one without the other – thus,

      1 John 4:21
      “And this commandment we have from him: whoever loves God must also love his brother.”

      Thanks

    11. Dan1el
      June 24th, 2013 @ 11:54 am

      Bo,
      As far as the people who keep the faith in Jesus AND the Commandments of YHVH – I totally agree!

      Jer 31
      31“Behold, the days are coming, declares the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
      32not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, my covenant that they broke, though I was their husband, declares the LORD.
      33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the LORD: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

      And here is the fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:
      Ro 2
      13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
      14For when Gentiles, *who do not have the law*, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
      15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
      16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

      NOTE: the Gentiles did not have the Law of God – were ignorant of it – yet the Laws of God were written in their heart by the Spirit, and they (though ignorant of God’s Law in terms of knowledge) were called “doers of the Law”.

      What about Christian believers who are still trying to walk by the old Covenant God made with the forefathers? It leads to failure to keep YHVH’s Laws, and hypocrisy.

      Ro 2
      17But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the law and boast in God
      18and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law;
      19and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
      20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—
      21you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal?
      22You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples?
      23You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law.
      24For, as it is written, “The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.”
      25For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision.
      26So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regardedb as circumcision?
      27Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written codec and circumcision but break the law.

      It is for these reasons (i. the New Covenant is the Spirit writing on the heart – i.e.: “faith working by love”, not the oldness of the letter, ii. the Gentiles being ignorant of God’s Law were yet called doers of the Law because they obeyed the Spirit’s writing on their heart, iii. the believers who tried to walk by the written code and not by the Spirit were condemned as prideful hypocrites – failures at keeping YHVH’s Commandments because they were not walking by the New Covenant of “faith working by love” but the oldness of the letter even though God said the New Covenant wouldn’t be like the old) that Apostle Paul says we are to serve not in the oldness of the letter but in newness of the Spirit

      Ro 7:6
      …so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code.

      The righteous requirement of the Law is fulfilled in us who serve God by the Spirit
      not the written code [Ro 7:6]:

      Ro 8
      3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
      4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

      Please consider – and reconsider. You could mislead some of the flock.

    12. Bo
      June 24th, 2013 @ 9:56 pm

      Dan1el,

      I do not like your translation that says “righteous requirement” instead of “righteousness.” It causes people to misunderstand what is being said. But, for sake of argument, I will use your translation anyway.

      The righteous requirement of the law is only met when we obey it. It is fulfilled in us by us doing what it says by virtue of the power of the Spirit. This is made obvious by the next few verses of Romans 8.

      Romans 8
      5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      Succinctly…those that continue to refuse to be subject to YHWH’s law are considered to have carnal minds by Paul. Those that obey are considered to be walking in the Spirit by him.

      In Matthew 4 and 5, Messiah not only spoke of the two greatest commandments, but also keeping and teaching the entirety of YHWH’s Torah. We certainly are not living by every word if we are not doing and teaching it, since it is commanded for us to teach it diligently.

      Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

      Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      To take Messiah or John or Paul to mean that we are not to pay attention to the details of YHWH’s instructions is not being true to the whole message of the Bible, but picking and choosing which parts we think are applicable. This is equal to making ourselves into our own elohim/god and eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of from the tree of life.

      The tree of life was taken away from mankind because of disobedience and choosing our own ideas. The tree of life will once again be partaken of by those that keep YHWH’s commandments.

      Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Shalom

    13. Bo
      June 24th, 2013 @ 10:04 pm

      Dan1el,

      Also…Jeremiah 31 indicates the YHWH’s law will be written on our hearts. It does not say that there will be a new law or that only some of it will be written on our hearts. The very same Torah of YHWH that Jeremiah accepted and spoke of elsewhere is what is intended by him in chapter 31.

      Idiomatically, YHWH’s law being written on our heats means that we love it…that we want to do it. This squares perfectly with what Messiah, Paul and John wrote.

      1 John 5
      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      If we do not keep YHWH’s commandments, we cannot love His children properly. If we find it grievous to keep YHWH’s commandments, we prove that we are lacking in both love for YHWH and our brothers. Commandment keeping is the proof of our love.

      Shalom

    14. Dan1el
      June 24th, 2013 @ 10:22 pm

      Bo,
      Romans 2 calls the Gentiles under the New Covenant – who did not know the list of the Commandments of God’s Old Covenant – “doers of the Law” because the Spirit wrote the Laws of God on their hearts and they obeyed (did “by instinct” the things contained in the Law”).

      Jer 31 says under the New Covenant (different than under the Old Covenant) the Spirit puts laws in my heart and mind to do – that is the definition of being a “doer of the Law” under the New Covenant.

      This is a distinction that is important for Paul, who says we must walk in the new way of the Spirit – not the old way of the letter.

      Paul didn’t want the righteousness from the Law, either – he counted it as a loss because he would boast and lose Christ [Pp 3:1-9].

      Thanks

    15. Bo
      June 25th, 2013 @ 9:49 am

      Dan1el,

      If you would just read a little further…Romans chapter three answers your wrong assumption that YHWH want’s us to somehow absorb His commandments by the Spirit without ever being instructed by His written word.

      Pretty much every culture has come to the conclusion, without YHWH’s written law, that it is wrong to murder or steal or commit adultery, etc. This is the “natural” outworking of YHWH’s revelation “through the things that are made” to humankind and is not the New Covenant. The new covenant causes us to want to do YHWH’s law. That is what the Hebrew idiom “write the laws upon their hearts” means. If we continue to not subject ourselves to YHWH’s law, we are carnal minded. The spiritual minded man agrees with YHWH’s law and loves it and does it. Now on to Romans 3.

      Romans 3
      1 ¶ What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
      3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
      4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
      5 But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
      6 God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
      7 For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?
      8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.

      There is much advantage to having the “oracles” of YHWH to instruct us. Paul considered the law and the prophets to be those “oracles.” If we all go by what the supposed spirit is supposedly teaching each one of us, there is no absolute guide to check to see if you or I is being led by a false spirit…except the “oracles” of YHWH. The sword of the Spirit is the word of YHWH. Yahshua used it against the enemy of our souls. Yashua had it memorized…written on His mind. He loved YHWH’s law…written on His heart.

      If we go by our inclinations and those inclinations cause us to not keep Sabbath and YHWH’s appointed times, those inclinations are not from the Spirit that revealed YHWH’s teachings to men that were led by the Spirit. We cannot have the same Spirit teach us contrary to them. It is a different spirit that would teach us differently. When we refuse the sword of the spirit as a guide to what is and is not of YHWH, we end up breaking YHWH’s commandments.

      Paul states, in verse 5 throug 7 above, that those that would break any of YHWH’s commandments with the idea that they are furthering YHWH’s kingdom will be judged by YHWH. YHWH still takes vengeance upon those that rebel against His written word…especially if they know what it says and still refuse to obey. Torah calls that presumptuous sin. John calls it the sin unto death. The only way for YHWH to be true and every man a liar is for the written word to take precedence over our individual and supposed leadings of the Spirit.

      In John Messiah said the Spirit would help us remember his words. We cannot remember something we have not read or heard. The Spirit is subject to the word, and not the other way around. Yahshua is YHWH. The pre-incarnate Yahshua is the one that Moses spoke to face to face. His word to Moses as well as to the apostles stands forever.

      Ex 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

      Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

      Mt 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

      And incidentally Paul continued to keep the law and even considered himself a Pharisee after coming to Messiah. What he counted as loss was the idea of working for righteousness.

      Ac 23:6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

      Ac 25:8 While he answered for himself, Neither against the law of the Jews, neither against the temple, nor yet against Caesar, have I offended any thing at all.

      We are not saved by works but we are save unto the good works that were before ordained that we should walk in them. Those before ordained works “ordinances” are detailed in the Torah and the Prophets.

      Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
      9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      Shalom

    16. Dan1el
      June 25th, 2013 @ 12:04 pm

      Bo,
      I don’t think it is right to turn this into another year-long debate; suffice to say, I disagree with you (mis)interpretations of Scripture.

      Paul didn’t even want his own righteousness from the Law that you want; he counted righteousness from the Law as a “loss” – it was something he could have confidence in and boast about and lose Christ over.

      Pp 3
      2Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh.
      3For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of Godb and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh—
      4though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more:
      5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee;
      6as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,c blameless.
      7But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
      8Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ
      9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith—

      v2Be on the look out for Torah-enforcers
      v3Though they boast about being circumcised, WE are the truly ‘circumcised’ – WE are the ‘worshippers of God’ – who glory in Jesus alone and put no trust or confidence or boast in our flesh (as Torah-enforcers do)
      v4Even though I have a ‘reason’ for boasting and being confident in the flesh – more than any of those Torah-enforcers – and this is what I could be confident about:
      v5 Circumcised on the 8th day (entered Covenant with God)
      An Israelite (God’s specially-treasured Covenant people),
      A Benjaminite (born of the wife Jacob loved [Rachel])
      I was a Jew among Jews.
      You want to talk about ‘Torah’? I was a Pharisee.
      v6You want to talk about ‘zeal’? I persecuted the church!
      You want to talk about ***righteousness by the Law***?
      Blameless.
      7But all these things (YES RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM THE LAW INCLUDED) I count as loss for the sake of Christ.
      v8In fact, I consider everything as loss because it is so much better to know the Messiah for whom I’ve lost all things in order to know Him
      v9and be found in Christ – NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN THAT COMES FROM THE LAW, but that which comes through faith in Christ: the righteousness FROM GOD that depends on faith

      Indeed, this is nothing other than his teaching in Romans 3: the sin of boasting cannot be defeated as long as you are under the Law of Works (Old Covenant); it can only be done away with by a Law of Faith (New Covenant).

      Romans 3:27
      Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded.
      By what kind of law?
      By a law of works?
      No, but by the Law of Faith.

      So why is it that you want something Paul did NOT want – that he considered a “loss” in terms of knowing Christ?

    17. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:04 am

      Dan1el,

      You are misrepresenting me.

      I have always maintained that righteousness is by faith in Yahshua Messiah. If we expect to gain salvation by keeping the law we are in error. Paul continued to keep the law after he was saved by faith.

      Keeping YHWH’s every word is not negated by faith or grace.

      Romans 6
      15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      Romans 3
      31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Breaking the law is still sin according to Paul and John.

      Romans 7
      7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law:

      1 John 3
      4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      It is only a carnal minded man that does not want to keep YHWH’s law.

      Ro 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      One more time for the road!

      I DO NOT KEEP THE LAW FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOR DO I TEACH OTHERS TO KEEP THE LAW TO GAIN RIGHTEOUSNESS. I KEEP IT, BY THE POWER OF YHWH”S SPIRIT, BECAUSE YHWH HAS MADE ME RIGHTEOUS AND BECAUSE I ENDEAVOR TO PRESENT MY BODY AS A LIVING SACRIFICE THAT IS ACCEPTABLE TO YHWH ACCORDING TO HIS EVERY WORD.

      If you do not love YHWH’s law…it is not written on your heart; you will not want to keep it and you will not be able to keep it because you have a carnal mind. Paul kept it. John kept it. Messiah kept it and told us that if we were to be great in YHWH’s kingdom that we would need to keep all of YHWH and teach others to do the same.

      Matthew 5
      18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Messiah said that it was our duty to obey every word of YHWH. So did Solomon. The two wisest men of all time agree. Why do you disagree?

      Mt 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

      Ec 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

      Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

      If we refuse to even do our basic duty, are we his servants at all? Or are we just deceiving ourselves?

      Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

      1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      Shalom

    18. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:32 am

      Bo,
      Paul said we do not “serve” God (speaking of after being made righteous by faith) after the old way of serving God by the letter (as you are espousing) but the new way of serving God by the Spirit in Ro 7:6.
      How do you not contradict that doctrine?
      You are saying “serve God now by the written code-Torah”; Paul says “no, that is wrong”.

    19. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:33 am

      Bo,
      The proof that you are wrong is that the Roman Gentiles were called “doers of the Law” and were yet ignorant of the Law.

    20. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 11:43 am

      Bo,
      The fact that the Romans, who were *ignorant of the Law were called “doers of the Law” – *because they obeyed “the Law of Life in the Spirit” [Ro 8:1,2] which Spirit put God’s Laws into their hearts [Ro 2:14+] as a fulfillment of the prophecy of how the New Covenant would work [Jer 31:31-34] is the proof that Paul’s doctrine that “the righteous requirement of the Law may be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit” [Ro 8:3,4] is true.

      You are manifestly in error.

    21. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 12:26 pm

      Bo,
      The Law is intended ONLY for people who “walk after the flesh” [Ro 8:4], because it is a minister of condemnation

      1 Ti 1:9
      understanding this, that THE LAW IS NOT LAID DOWN FOR THE JUST but for the Lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers,

      2 Cor 3:9
      For if there was glory in the MINISTRY OF CONDEMNATION the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

      (it was never intended to bring about righteousness, but to cause the transgression to abound [Ro 5:20]; it is able to make sin abound because it is the “strength of sin” [1 Cor 15:56], and “the sinful passions are aroused by the Law” [Ro 7:5]).

      The Law finds people who are in the flesh – therefore, inexorably sinners (since the flesh has the Law of Sin [Ro 7]) – and condemns them for their own good so they will cry out for a Savior [Ro 7:24]; after it fulfills this, its role/function, people die to it (as a means of serving God [Ro 7:6]) by its own mandate/decree [Gal 4:19]. It has dispensed its role of “condemning”. Its letters are not an exact manual for serving God for righteous people (though the Spirit secretly encoded instructions in there – which can be revealed by the Spirit – on how the Christian life should be led [1 Cor 9:9+]). The Law is the “glove of condemnation” that fits the “living hand of the living flesh” perfectly – but once the hand of the flesh dies [Ro 6:6; 7:1,4], the “glove of condemnation” no longer is worn.

      The Law *is not for righteous people*; Christians *are* righteous through faith in Christ (they are declared righteous as a Gift): how do you justify your claims in the light of such things!?

      I think, with all due respect, that you are misunderstanding the function of the Law.

    22. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 2:58 pm

      Dan1el,

      You are still misrepresenting me.

      You are right about the law never being able to bring about righteousness, but righteousness does bring about obedience to YHWH’s law.

      You wrote:

      “The proof that you are wrong is that the Roman Gentiles were called “doers of the Law” and were yet ignorant of the Law.”

      The Romans knew the law.

      Ro 7:1a Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,…

      Obeying the law by the Spirit is still obeying the law of YHWH. The law has not changed. Obeying in the flesh to be justified is futile. Once we are justified, the Spirit empowers us to keep the law. Breaking the law is still sin. I already quoted the passages in Romans and John that prove that in post 17. The carnal mind does not want to keep the law.(Rom 8:7) It just cannot subject itself to YHWH’s instructions.

      Serving in the newness of the Spirit does not change the law of YHWH. It is still the same law that the Spirit informed Moses and the prophets of. It is still YHWH’s instructions on what is and isn’t sin and holiness. If the spirit that informs you, tells you something different about YHWH’s law than what YHWH told Moses face to face, it is a false spirit.

      Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

      Serving in oldness of the letter is doing the law to be saved and it attempts to put YHWH under obligation to save us because of our supposed righteous actions. Serving in the newness of the Spirit keeps the law because the new creature is created in righteousness and thus wants to keep YHWH’s law.

      Romans 7
      6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
      7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
      12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
      13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
      14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
      Romans 8
      4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
      5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      The law still tells us what things are sin. Serving in the Spirit does not lead us to break the law.

      It is not grievous to the new man.

      1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      The old carnal man fights every way possible against keeping YHWH’s law. The old man even tries to use scripture to justify disobedience. It is the doers of the law that are righteous. Those that cannot bring themselves to keep the law prove that they are not righteous.

      Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

      1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      The law is of the Spirit.

      Romans 7
      14 For we know that the law is spiritual…

      1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

      The natural, carnal man thinks that it is foolishness to obey YHWH’s law, he cannot subject himself to it.

      Romans 8
      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      The ministry of condemnation is us trying to be righteous by keeping the law. It is the outward imposition of the law upon an unregenerate heart.

      The ministry of righteousness is us being obedient children, now that we have been made righteous. It is us wanting to obey YHWH and loving Him by keeping His commandments.

      The law is for the unjust. If you still murder or covet or break YHWH’s Sabbath, it stands in testimony against you that you are unjust/unrighteous. If you obey YHWH’s commandments and thus fullfill the law by the Spirit there is no condemnation. The ministry of condemnation is still in effect for those that are carnal minded and natural men that refuse to keep YHWH’s law. The ministry of righteousness is available to any that accept Yahshua’s sacrife calling upon YHWH with a true heart and keep His Torah out of love for Him by His Spirit that also inspired the Torah. The testimony of Yahshua must be coupled with obedience.

      Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

      Ex 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

      De 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

      De 11:1 Therefore thou shalt love the LORD thy God, and keep his charge, and his statutes, and his judgments, and his commandments, alway.

      Shalom

    23. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 3:02 pm

      That should have been:

      The ministry of righteousness is available to any that accept Yahshua’s sacrifice calling upon YHWH with a true heart and keep His Torah out of love for Him by His Spirit that also inspired the Torah. The testimony of Yahshua must be coupled with obedience.

    24. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 3:56 pm

      Bo,
      1. “The Romans knew the law.
      Ro 7:1a Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,…”
      -At that point [Ro 7], Paul had been speaking to *physical brothers (Jews)*; but, there were two peoples in the Assembly of Rome:

      i. Jewish Saints
      Ro 2:17,18
      “But if you call yourself a _Jew_ 18 and know his will and approve what is excellent, **because you are instructed from the Law**”
      ii. Gentile Saints
      Ro 2:14,15
      “14For when _Gentiles_, who **do not have the law**, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though **they do not have the law.** 15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts,”
      Ro 11:13
      “*Now* I am speaking to you _Gentiles_” – before he wasn’t speaking to them.

      Romans 2-11 is aimed mainly at the Jewish saints; when he reaches 7:1, he is speaking with his brothers (Jews who know the Law) because he is in the middle of his discussion with them on how the Gospel is supposed to work – how they were living it the wrong way (by the Law) and not the way God intended (by the Spirit) [Jer 31:33].

      2. “the carnal mind does not want to keep the law.(Rom 8:7) It just cannot subject itself to YHWH’s instructions.”
      -The instructions of YHVH under the New Covenant are not the Written Code; they are dictated by the Spirit – this is the only possible way the Gentile believers at Rome could be called “doers of the Law” while also being ignorant of the Written Code [Ro 2:14].
      You keep accusing anyone who does not read and follow the Written Torah of being “carnally-minded”; your assertion is NOT supported in Scripture. You are bringing charges against God’s elect; but it is God Who justifies. Why are you accusing them together with satan?
      I wonder if you will acknowledge you are wrong.

      3. “Serving in oldness of the letter is [defined in] doing the law to be saved”
      -”Serving” means “doing what my employer wants me to do.”
      We are not to “do what our master wants” in the old way of the old covenant (finding out what our Master wants us to do by the written code), but in the new way of the new covenant (finding out what our Master wants us to do by His Spirit).
      There is an exhibition of serving God by the Spirit in Ro 2:14: the Gentile believers at Rome were *ignorant of the Law*, yet “doers of the Law” because the Spirit was telling them what to do and they were obeying and keeping their consciences clean (because their consciences would bear witness).

      4. “The ministry of condemnation is us trying to be righteous by keeping the law. It is the outward imposition of the law upon an unregenerate heart.”
      -Paul says the Law was not made for righteous people, but to condemn the unrighteous; you say it WAS made for righteous people.
      I wonder if you will acknowledge this is wrong.

    25. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:18 pm

      Dan1el,

      You are not paying attention to what I write nor what scripture says.

      You have not answered the scriptures I have posted, but just little snippets that can be misconstrued to make your point.

      The law condemns those that do not keep it. Those that do not keep it are the unrighteous. It was made to reveal what sin is and isn’t. If you have marital relations with your wife while she is set apart for uncleanness, you are participating in fornication. If you work on Sabbath you are a Sabbath breaker. If you take someones money, you have stolen. It does not matter which commandment you break. The law condemns transgressors. You are not immune to being guilty of sin just because you claim to believe in Messiah or think that you are under grace.

      Romans 6
      15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      Romans 3
      31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Paul and James and John say that transgressing the law is still sin and that it is completely wrong to continue to sin once we have come to faith.

      Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Ro 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

      1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      Abraham was justified by faith and it is YHWH’s testimony of him that he kept His law…not to get saved or be justified, but because he had real faith and real justification. If you do not have real faith and justification, you will not be able subject yourself to YHWH’s law. Romans 8 is speaking of the very same law that YHWH gave to Moses…not some subjective, ushy, gushy spirit led law.

      Ge 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

      Since you do not have YHWH’s law written on your heart, you do not want to keep it and you do not keep it, so it testifies against you that you are not righteous. That is what the law does…condemns the unrighteous,carnal, natural man that continues to transgress it. You can try to justify yourself, but faith and grace do not make YHWH’s law void.

      If you were a child of Abraham, you would do the works of Abraham. Real faith produces faithfulness/obedience.

      Ga 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

      Joh 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

      Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

      Children of disobedience refuse to keep YHWH’s Torah.

      Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

      Col 3:6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

      Shalom

    26. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:27 pm

      Bo,
      You are accusing me of something you are guilty of (hypocrisy) – you still haven’t answered the question I’ve been asking for a long time:

      How could the Gentile Roman believers qualify to be deemed “hearers and doers of the Law” if they were ignorant of the Law AND what you are saying is true? Both you and this text cannot be true.

      Let me help you out: the Spirit of God wrote the Laws on their hearts and minds AND THEY OBEYED; this qualifies them for being both “hearers” and “doers of the Law”.

      Do you disagree?

    27. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:33 pm

      Dan1el,

      Ephesians 5
      3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

      (Fornication and uncleanness and coveteousness are still what Torah says they are. There is not a new definition. Marital relations during the uncleanness period is fornication. Staying in a habitual state of uncleanness by eating unclean animals and fornication is still wrong. Coveting forbidden animal flesh and sexual pleasure is still sin.)

      4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
      5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

      (When we do not care about what YHWH calls uncleanness and desire something that YHWH has forbidden, it is covetousness and idolatry. If this is our lifestyle we do not have any inheritance in Messiah’s kingdom.)

      6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

      (Many are deceived by vain words that say that YHWH’s Torah does not apply or that has been made void. The wrath of YHWH is not something to take lightly.)

      7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
      8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

      (Walking in the light has to do with being doers of the word that we have read, heard or know. Walking in darkness is refusing to obey.)

      Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

      Shalom

    28. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:38 pm

      Dan1el,

      Did Messiah teach that we would be, at best, least in the kingdom if we continued to break (and teach men to break) even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments and that we would be called great in the kingdom if we kept and taught all of YHWH’s commandments? Is Messiah the greatest in the kingdom? What did He do and what did He teach then?

      Shalom

    29. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:40 pm

      Dan1el,

      Hint:

      Matthew 5
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Shalom

    30. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:55 pm

      Dan1el,

      You wrote in post 7:

      “Re: Torah-Enforcers”

      Looks like Yahshua was “Torah-Enforcer” by your definition, and the greatest in the kingdom because of it, according to Matthew 5.

      Shalom

    31. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 5:57 pm

      Bo,
      1. I will ask the question you are running away from again.

      “You are accusing me of something you are guilty of (hypocrisy) – you still haven’t answered the question I’ve been asking for a long time:
      How could the Gentile Roman believers qualify to be deemed ‘hearers and doers of the Law’ if they were ignorant of the Law AND what you are saying is true? Both you and this text cannot be true.
      Let me help you out: the Spirit of God wrote the Laws on their hearts and minds AND THEY OBEYED; this qualifies them for being both ‘hearers’ and ‘doers of the Law’.
      Do you disagree?”

      2i. Yes, Jesus was teaching the Ministry of Condemnation to “shut” everyone’s “mouths” – so they would not justify themselves but stand condemned:

      Romans 3:19
      Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God.

      Or do you really think Jesus expected the man [Lk 10] to keep the Commandments (even though Jesus had to have known that he could not – the Law was givn to shut every mouth and condemn people; Jesus was not unaware of the condition of men [Ro 7]) in order to gain eternal life?

      Luke 10:26-28
      25And behold, a lawyer stood up to put him to the test, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
      26He said to him, “What is written in the Law? How do you read it?”
      27And he answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
      28And he said to him, “You have answered correctly – ‘do’ this, and ‘you will live’.”
      29But he, DESIRING TO JUSTIFY HIMSELF, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

      Why did the man “desire to justify himself”? The Words which Jesus spoke were breathed upon by the Spirit of God, and the Law’s Ministry of Condemnation [Ro 3:19; 2 Cor 3:9] was at work – he’d been convicted that he had fallen short.

      2ii. Jesus said the Law would not pass away “until” – this means the Law, according to Jesus, was only standing until a certain threshold in time: the Law would (without question) pass away. According to Paul, we have entered/are entering into that time. Your interpretation (either intentionally or unintentionally) makes it seem as though Paul is wrong – I choose to believe Paul.

      2iii. The Law still contains many hidden messages recorded for those whom the Spirit would reveal them at a time – e.g.: 1 Cor 9:9; in this way, every jot and tittle is still standing and being kept (whether or not people who do know it but are being led by the Spirit).

    32. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 6:00 pm

      2ii. You’re avoiding the lynchpin which would disprove every incorrect interpretation you’ve given of Paul’s writings.

    33. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 7:33 pm

      Dan1el,

      Three simple answers please.

      Did Messiah tell us that we would be called great in the kingdom if we kept and taught for others to keep all of YHWH’s commandments? Yes or No?

      Did He practice what He preached? Yes or No?

      Is He great in the kingdom? Yes of No?

      Shalom

    34. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 10:10 pm

      Bo,
      Did Paul say the Gentile believers in Rome were “doers of the Law” even without knowing it?

    35. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 10:21 pm

      Bo,
      I’ve already answered your questions; now you must answer mine. I asked you first, and yet I answered your question first.

      I think you know which of the two of us is right – that’s why you don’t want to answer lol

    36. Dan1el
      June 26th, 2013 @ 10:25 pm

      Bo,
      You don’t have to answer me – anyone who reads this will not be confused about what the answer is.
      It’s obvious.

      Thanks for the discussion. Good night

    37. Bo
      June 26th, 2013 @ 10:34 pm

      Dan1el,

      You evaded answering my questions with simple answers…probably because you do not want to face the truth.

      Having something written on our hearts is an idiom. There is no physical pen and ink in view. There is nothing actually spelled out in words. “Written on the heart” means that we have the inward desire to do something. It means that we love and cling to an idea and base our lives upon it. It does not mean that there are actual rules and laws printed on our blood pump. If a gentile, that does not have the written law, is kind to those he meets, it proves that he desires to be kind to his neighbor. It is on his heart to be kind. If a gentile, or a Jew for that matter, is mean spirited, it proves that the he does not have the desire to be kind to others. When we know and disobey YHWH’s Torah, it proves that we do not love His law. It also proves that we do not love Him correctly or our neighbor correctly. It proves that we do not have His law, which has not changed, on our hearts. It proves that we love our own ideas and have them written on our hearts. It proves that we are still desiring to eat from tree of the knowledge of good and evil instead of from the tree of life.

      I already answered you that the Roman believers knew the law and that the category of people Paul speaks of in Romans 2 are aware of some truth by virtue of “nature” by the witness of “things that are made.” Romans 1 flows right into Romans 2.

      Romans 1
      18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
      19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
      20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

      Romans 2
      5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
      6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
      7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
      8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
      9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
      10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
      11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
      12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
      13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
      14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

      These in Romans 2 are not partakers of the New Covenant, but are honest-hearted men compared to the men of Romans 1. There are countless examples in every culture that have come to believe in basic morality without the knowledge of the revelation of the written Torah. Their societies’ laws reflect this. In Romans 3 we find that those that have the written law are much advantaged over the men of Romans 1 and 2 unless they are hearers and not doers. We also find that YHWH takes vengeance upon those that break His law in supposedly advancing the truth. Enter Churchianity and Judaism.

      If the written code of law is wrong to obey then you should toss out the last third of your Bible. It contains more laws per page than the front 2/3rds. The written word is a mirror that tells us whether we are walking in the faith or not. It tells us whether we are living out true righteousness or if we have been deceived.

      If we look into the mirror and find that we have spots and stains, we should not throw the mirror in the trash can…we should adjust our appearance by repenting so that we line up with the truth of what we are called to be.

      The sword of the spirit (the written word) divides between the thoughts and intents of the heart. If we really have intended to obey YHWH fully, then, when our sin/transgression of the law is revealed, we change. If we only have had thoughts of obeying, we come up with excuses and justifications about why we do not need to do that part of scripture. Living by every word of YHWH is required of us. It is our duty. Faith and grace do not change this duty. Faith in Messiah’s sacrifice atones for our past sin and grace gives us a new start and the power to obey fully.

      Shalom

    38. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 11:45 am

      Dan1el,

      Just so you know, most commentaries agree with me about Romans 2 concerning the law written on peoples hearts. They consider Paul to be speaking in general or hypothetical terms and not about the Roman believers. Here is an a small sample from Barnes:

      “Verse 15. “Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)”

      Ver. 15…

      ‘The work of the law.’-The design, purpose, or object which is contemplated by the revealed law; that is, to make known to man his duty, and to enforce the obligation to perform it. This does not mean, by any means, that they had all the knowledge which the law would impart, for then there would have been no need of a revelation; but that, as far as it went, as far as they had a knowledge of right and wrong, they coincided with the revealed will of God. In other words, the will of God, whether made known by reason or revelation, will be the same so far as reason goes. The difference is, that revelation goes farther than reason; sheds light on new duties and doctrines; as the information given by the naked eye and the telescope is the same, except that the telescope carries the sight forward, and reveals new worlds to the sight of man.

      ‘Written in their hearts.’-The revealed law of God was written on tables of stone, and then recorded in the books of the Old Testament. This law the Gentiles did not possess, but, to a certain extent, the same requirements were written on their hearts. Though not revealed to them as to the Jews, yet they had obtained the knowledge of them by the light of nature…”

      From Eclectic notes on the Bible:

      “‘the work of the law written{1} in their hearts’-It is well to remark that there is no law written in the heart of the Gentile — [for]that is the new covenant — but the WORK which the law requires, the conscience recognises as right or wrong. Conscience knows it is wrong to murder or steal, when no law is given. Man got the knowledge of good and evil by the fall and it is of all importance to recognise the difference of this and law. Law imposes a rule by authority — here God’s authority; conscience on the contrary takes notice of right and wrong in itself, as God does. “The man is become as one of us, knowing good and evil.” Gen 3. That is, conscience takes notice of good and evil in itself, as good and as evil, without any law which prescribes or forbids it; and so far as a man is a law to himself, that is, not having the thing prescribed to him, or forbidden as law does.

      (1)”Written” agrees with work, not law; the Greek leaves no question as to this.”

      Geneva Bible:

      2:15 Which shew the work of the law {l} written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

      (l) This knowledge is a natural knowledge.”

      Gill:

      “Ver. 15. Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, &c.] Though the Gentiles had not the law in form, written on tables, or in a book, yet they had “the work,” the matter, the sum and substance of it in their minds; as appears by the practices of many of them, in their external conversation. The moral law, in its purity and perfection, was written on the heart of Adam in his first creation; was sadly obliterated by his sin and fall; upon several accounts, and to answer various purposes, a system of laws was written on tables of stone for the use of the Israelites; and in regeneration the law is reinscribed on the hearts of God’s people; and even among the Gentiles, and in their hearts, there are some remains of the old law and light of nature, which as by their outward conduct appears, so by the inward motions of their minds…”

      Etc.

      Shalom

    39. Dan1el
      June 27th, 2013 @ 12:58 pm

      Bo,
      1. I evaded nothing; I believe all Scripture is true and that all Scripture must be upheld – if I understood it your way, I couldn’t uphold all Scripture.

      2. Concerning the “Gentiles” who have the Law of God written on their hearts [Ro 2]: are you really trying to deny that these are believers?

      Romans 2
      12For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law.
      13For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified.
      14For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
      15They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them
      16on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

      12 Paul moves to shut down Roman Jewish believers’ “confidence in the flesh” [Pp 3] (in their merely being Jewish) rather than being “doers of the Law”:
      “Do you really think you’re so much better than Gentiles, merely because you are circumcised and have knowledge of the Written Law? Sure, the Gentiles will be condemned for the evil they’ve done, but so will you die for the evil you have done, no different – even having the Law! Having knowledge will not help you:
      v13 being a “doer of the Law” is what justifies you.
      v14 There are Gentiles who don’t have such knowledge from writings as you have and boast in, but who are “doers of the Law”, out of their new nature; they are justified for being “doers of God’s Law”;
      v15 Their obedience to God’s Law proves that there has been a work in their hearts where God’s Law has been written in them. They don’t have a physical copy of the Law written out, but the Spirit guides them into all Truth and writes God’s Laws on their hearts, and because they obey they are “doers of the Law”.

      I. I disagree that the Gentiles in Romans 2 are unbelievers, since NO person who is not born again (be they Jew OR Gentile) keeps God’s Law.
      Paul said, even knowing and delighting in God’s Law, he did not have the ability [Ro 7:18] to be a “doer of the Law” due the Law of Sin in his flesh/bodily members took him captive to do what he hated: it was impossible (according to Paul) for someone who was not liberated from the sinful flesh (affected only through its dying – which death is gifted through faith in Christ) to be a “doer of God’s Law” – let alone to be justified by his being a “doer of God’s Law”. Are you really insisting unregenerate, unbelieving, ignorant-of-God’s-Law, ignoble Gentiles are Romans 2:14′s “doers of God’s Law”?
      If an unregenerate Jew (as Paul of Romans 7), who has explicit knowledge of God’s Will in written form, cannot be a “doer of the Law”, how much more impossible must it have been for an unregenerate Gentile who hasn’t such knowledge – and how could he keep it to that extremity whereby he might even be “justified” in God’s sight by virtue of that keeping of it (something even YOU said you don’t believe is possible)? How would these not, then, boast [Ro 4:2] – is Paul allowing in Romans 2 what he even disallows for father Abraham in Romans 4:2?
      Nonsense!
      That the Gentile kept even the smallest Commandment (as you believe Christ will judge by even the most obscure Law)?
      Nonsense!
      “The carnal mind is enmity with God, and cannot submit to God’s Law; those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”! How do you know you’re in the flesh? You don’t have Christ’s Spirit. How do you know you’re in the Spirit? You have the Spirit of Christ. If you are not in the Spirit through faith in Christ, you are a sinner. Based upon what do you assert that unregenerate Gentiles, who do not have Christ’s Spirit, could submit to God’s Law and be justified [Ro 2:13] by its works – something Paul says is not within the realm of possibility (“…by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” [Ro 3:20])? Are there ANY men who are not dead in sins and trespasses”? If not, aren’t they all breakers of God’s Law? If not, are you contradicting your own interpretation of 1 John 3:4,5:3, “All sin is breaking of God’s Law” “keep God’s Commandments”? If they are “dead in sins and trespasses”, how are they “keepers of God’s Law”?

      IIa. Even if your interpretations were true (they aren’t), how could even they not work against you Bo?
      You would still be allowing, “Ignorant-of-God’s-Law Gentiles can be qualified to be called ‘doers of the Law’”.
      Isn’t this the very thing you are denying – even in two different ways?
      i. You say no one can be justified by the works of the Law.
      ii. You say believers cannot live righteous without reading and doing the Law – they don’t qualify to be ‘doers of the Law’.
      In other words: if a Gentile who is neither regenerate nor knowledgeable of God’s Law can be qualified to be deemed a “doer of the Law” (even to the point of being justified by their keeping God’s Law – a thing which you’ve denied is possible [you said you held that faith in Jesus is necessary for justification]), how much more must you allow the same thing for “ignorant-of-God’s-Law *believing* Gentiles”?
      Why disallow as “impossible” for believers what you allow as “possible” for unbelievers – are unbelievers are of a purer nature than believers? Of course not! Believers have a new nature – they are new creations – and this is why it says they do “by nature” the things contained in the Law. Galatians 6:15 “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a *new creation*.” A new creation doing what? Things that please God – God’s Laws – “by [their new] nature”.
      IIb. Let’s pretend, for a moment, that your interpretations are true (of course, they aren’t): even then, how could it be that this entailed Gentile obedience to “even the smallest commandment” (aren’t they justified by keeping the *whole* Law – not failing in any point, becoming breakers of the Law)?
      Do you really think (and do you have actual proof) there were Gentiles who loved YHVH with all their heart mind and soul without failure? Where are the Gentiles of history wearing tzit-tzits and single-fabric clothing, resting on Shabbat in honor of YHVH, observing Pesach (in Jerusalem, because they must go to Jerusalem), circumcising their boys on the 8th day, bringing tithes to priests, etc., etc., etc.,?
      If it is not speaking of keeping even the smallest Commandment, then don’t you allow that a person can be justified without keeping the smallest Commandment? Wouldn’t you, then, be contradicting your own dogma that men ought not teach men even the smallest Laws were nullified?
      Which is it:
      i. Were there Gentiles keeping every single Law in order to be called “doers of the Law” OR
      ii. Are you nullifying your argument by saying they were justified without keeping every single Law?

      III. In denying the Gentiles of Romans 2:14 were believers, are you also denying “the work of the Law written on their hearts” was/is in reference to and/or a fulfillment of Jer 31:32,33 – denying that it is about how we are to come to know what God wants us to do as service to Him – i.e.: “come to know the Laws of God”? That those hear and who do this Law (written on their heart) qualify to be considered “doers of the Law”? Again, strange how you allow it for unbelievers, but not believers.
      Yet, Romans 7:6 undeniably refers to the same method of coming to know “God’s Law”/”what God wants us to do in service of Him”, and of becoming qualified to be “doers of the Law” when it says “serve in the newness of the Spirit”.
      What is “new”, except in view of what is “old”?
      What would the old” be, except “the old way of finding out what God wants us to do in service to Him” – of “the written code”?
      Isn’t this exactly what is in view in Jer 31:31-33?
      How aren’t these exactly what are in view in Romans 2:14 – how is Romans 2:14 not a picture of Gentile partakers of the New Covenant [Jer 31:32,33; Ro 7:6] ?

      How AREN’T the Gentiles of Romans 2 regenerate believers?
      How DON’T believers qualify as “doers of the Law” without reading the Law?

    40. Dan1el
      June 27th, 2013 @ 1:04 pm

      Bo,
      1. All of those commentaries – no matter who wrote them – are in error.
      2. And since when does the belief of the majority (rather than facts/evidence) prove Truth?

    41. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 1:40 pm

      Dan1el,

      You wrote:
      “1. All of those commentaries – no matter who wrote them – are in error.”

      I think that your pride is showing. The majority does not determine truth, but I thought that maybe the mouth of two or three witnesses would help you get past your offense toward me.

      I guess it just goes to show you that you will not listen to those that have studied the scripture more than you and that are Greek and Hebrew scholars. If you would pay attention to what is actually written in scripture or in my posts you would gain much insight into what Yahshua taught and what I teach. But you jump to conclusions and insist on having it your own way. You are grasping at straws to find some way to justify your view, instead of accepting what said and meant in the scriptures.

      It is the WORK of the law that is written on the gentiles hearts, not the law. That is what the Greek and English say. The argument that Paul is laying out is showing that all men are without excuse and will be judged by what they knew. All societies have some light and by virtue of conscience know something of good and evil.

      Yahshua did and taught us to do YHWH’s law. This is quite obvious to the unbiased reader. Yahshua is the greatest in the kingdom. When you take Paul out of context and then force Messiah’s words into your false mold, you deceive yourself. Paul is meant to be understood in light of Messiah, not Messiah’s words in the lessor light of Paul. You go about your faulty logic in a backwards fashion.

      Yahshua said and meant exactly this:

      Matthew 5
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Paul wrote and meant exactly this:

      Romans 3
      31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Romans 7
      Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…

      Romans 6
      15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      What part of “God forbid” do you not understand?

      Romans 2
      13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
      14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, DO BY NATURE the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
      15 Which shew the WORK of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

      The DO BY NATURE , not the Spirit, the show the WORK of the the law written in their hearts, not the law written in their hearts. And you still do not get the idiom.

      How about Matthew Henry on Romans 2:

      “1. The LIGHT OF NATURE. This the Gentiles have, and by this they shall be judged: As many as have sinned without law shall perish without law; that is, the unbelieving Gentiles, who had no other guide but natural conscience, no other motive but common mercies, and had not the law of Moses nor any supernatural revelation, shall not be reckoned with for the transgression of the law they never had, nor come under the aggravation of the Jews’ sin against and judgment by the written law; but they shall be judged by, as they sin against, the law of nature, not only as it is in their hearts, corrupted, defaced, and imprisoned in unrighteousness, but as in the uncorrupt original the Judge keeps by him. Further to clear this #Ro 2:14-15, in a parenthesis, he evinces that the LIGHT OF NATURE was to the Gentiles instead of a written law. He had said #Ro 2:12 they had sinned without law, which looks like a contradiction; for where there is no law there is no transgression. But, says he, though they had not the written law #Ps 147:20, they had that which was equivalent, not to the ceremonial, but to the moral law. They had the work of the law. He does not mean that work which the law commands, as if they could produce a perfect obedience; but that work which the law does. The work of the law is to direct us what to do, and to examine us what we have done. Now,

      (1.) They had that which directed them what to do by the light of nature: by the force and tendency of their natural notions and dictates they apprehended a clear and vast difference between good and evil. They did by nature the things contained in the law. They had a sense of justice and equity, honour and purity, love and charity; the light of nature taught obedience to parents, pity to the miserable, conservation of public peace and order, forbade murder, stealing, lying, perjury, &c. Thus they were a law unto themselves.

      (2.) They had that which examined them as to what they had done: Their conscience also bearing witness. They had that within them which approved and commended what was well done and which reproached them for what was done amiss. Conscience is a witness, and first or last will bear witness, though for a time it may be bribed or brow beaten. It is instead of a thousand witnesses, testifying of that which is most secret; and their thoughts accusing or excusing, passing a judgment upon the testimony of conscience by applying the law to the fact. Conscience is that candle of the Lord which was not quite put out, no, not in the Gentile world. The heathen have witnessed to the comfort of a good conscience…

      Their thoughts the meanwhile, μεταξυ αλληλων — among themselves, or one with another. The same light and law of nature that witnesses against sin in them, and witnessed against it in others, accused or excused one another. Vicissim, so some read it, by turns; according as they observed or broke these natural laws and dictates, their consciences did either acquit or condemn them. All this did evince that they had that which was to them instead of a law, which they might have been governed by, and which will condemn them, because they were not so guided and governed by it. So that the guilty Gentiles are left without excuse. God is justified in condemning them. They cannot plead ignorance, and therefore are likely to perish if they have not something else to plead.”

      Shalom

    42. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 1:43 pm

      That should have been:

      They DO BY NATURE, not the Spirit, they show the WORK of the the law written in their hearts, not the law written in their hearts.

    43. Dan1el
      June 27th, 2013 @ 1:52 pm

      Bo,
      1. “It is the WORK of the law that is written on the gentiles hearts, not the law. That is what the Greek and English say. The argument that Paul is laying out is showing that all men are without excuse and will be judged by what they knew. All societies have some light and by virtue of conscience know something of good and evil.”

      Incorrect, since “knowing” does not equal “doing” – yet, the Gentiles are called “doers of the Law”.

      The work of the Law is talking about God working in them to will and do for His good pleasure – God is working by writing His Law in their heart.

      2. Will wait for response to #39.

    44. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 2:00 pm

      Dan1el,

      You are not paying close attention to what I posted. Read what I wrote in the posts above more closely…you have been thoroughly answered. If you would like some clarification, please ask short questions to which I can give concise answers.

      Shalom

    45. Dan1el
      June 27th, 2013 @ 2:03 pm

      Bo,
      No, you will give reply to #39 or this discussion will not move forward.

    46. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 2:06 pm

      Dan1el,

      I have given it. What have I not answered?

      Shalom

    47. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 2:08 pm

      Since when has this discussion moved forward anyway?

    48. Dan1el
      June 27th, 2013 @ 2:13 pm

      Bo,
      Please provide a point-for-point response, so that it will be clear which objections you are replying to.

      From what I see, you haven’t responded to AT LEAST #39′s number 2 (either I, IIa, IIb or III).

    49. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 6:41 pm

      Dan1el,

      You wrote:
      “Yet, Romans 7:6 undeniably refers to the same method of coming to know “God’s Law”/”what God wants us to do in service of Him”, and of becoming qualified to be “doers of the Law” when it says “serve in the newness of the Spirit”.
      What is “new”, except in view of what is “old”?
      What would the old” be, except “the old way of finding out what God wants us to do in service to Him” – of “the written code”?”

      The old way and new way are not differentiated by the way we find out what YHWH wants us to do. The old way is outward imposition of law on an unregenerate people that refused to hear YHWH’s further commandments after hearing the ten words. The new way is allowing YHWH to change our hearts so that no one has to make us learn and do His commandments.

      It is not old or new to read YHWH’s word to know what He desires. The words that people were inspired to write, that are now contained in the Bible, cannot be contradicted by the Spirit. Those commandments are the Spirit’s words as much as they are the Father’s and the Son’s and vice’ versa.

      You are using written words to try to teach us what you think is right. You are reading written words of men that you are using to understand what YHWH wants. Paul used the written Torah to teach believers. So you are using written words based upon written words to produce more written words.

      If we did it your way no one would listen to or read anyone’s words, because we would expect them all to just enter our minds by the Spirit.

      You are contradicting your very premise by using Paul’s written words to be taught or to teach. Why should we listen to a man that goes against his own teaching. Why should we listen to a man that speaks self-contradictory statements?

      You did not learn the things you say by only listening to a Spirit. You read them or heard others say them. And you evidently do not believe that the Spirit can teach us without the written word or you would stop producing so many written words. Your argument defeats itself.

      Deuteronomy 30
      10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
      11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
      12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
      15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

      Romans 10
      6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
      7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach…
      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

      The Spirit does not generally just drop in on people and impart the gospel to them. Someone has to teach and preach the truth. The men that wrote the scripture are just preachers and teachers.

      The word is supposed to be in our mouths and in our hearts. This is another idiom. I hope you can get it. “In our mouths” means that we can recite it…that we have it memorized…or at least know what it says. “In our hearts” means that we want to do it. YHWH’s torah, that Paul quotes is not too difficult for us if we know it and want to do it.

      The word of faith has not changed. It must be preached…if only by reading the reading of scripture. They cannot hear without a preacher. the Spirit of YHWH is not a preacher. He inspires them though to write and to teach.

      The torah is the word of faith. It is all about the difference between life and good, death and evil. When we do not know it and desire to do it we are not walking in the word of faith…the word that we can trust. When we ignore YHWH’s torah to supposedly listen to YHWH’s Spirit, we hear a different spirit and we get deceived.

      The new way of the Spirit is about listening to those that the Spirit speaks through by writing and by mouth with the desire to know and do YHWH’s every word. The old way of the letter is being forced into hearing and doing.

      I will be posting more responses to your post 39 shortly.

      Shalom

    50. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 6:58 pm

      Continued from above:

      You wrote:
      “Isn’t this exactly what is in view in Jer 31:31-33?
      How aren’t these exactly what are in view in Romans 2:14 – how is Romans 2:14 not a picture of Gentile partakers of the New Covenant [Jer 31:32,33; Ro 7:6] ?
      How AREN’T the Gentiles of Romans 2 regenerate believers?
      How DON’T believers qualify as “doers of the Law” without reading the Law?”

      I already answered these questions many times above. It is not about not reading the law.

      1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine.

      Evidently Paul would disagree with your analysis of his doctrine.
      2 Timothy 3
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      Evidently Timothy was made wise about salvation thorough reading Torah. Evidently Paul wanted His to learn how to live correctly and teach correctly by reading it too.

      Why can you not see this? Eyes wide shut, maybe?

      They (the Gentiles of Romans 2) aren’t Jeremiah 31ers because that is not what Paul is addressing. The context shows what Paul is speaking about. Just because you see a similar phrase somewhere does not mean that the subject matter is the same in two different books. Context is always the first and main way to know the meaning of a passage. You are importing ideas instead of reading what is there. This will not likely produce truth in the end.

      Shalom

    51. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:36 pm

      Continued from above:

      You Wrote:
      “1. I evaded nothing; I believe all Scripture is true and that all Scripture must be upheld – if I understood it your way, I couldn’t uphold all Scripture.”

      Not so! I uphold all scripture to the point of believing that man is supposes to live by every word of YHWH including the Torah. You do not uphold that part of scripture.

      “2. Concerning the “Gentiles” who have the Law of God written on their hearts [Ro 2]: are you really trying to deny that these are believers?”
      They do no have the law written on their hearts. The Greek, the English, and the commentaries all say that they have the WORK of the law written on their hearts. The context of Romans 2 is speaking of unregenerate Gentiles that live by their consciences and that they do this by NATURE not by the Spirit. At this point in Paul’s argument he is not addressing the subject of believers but natural man that can know by the things that are made, and the way things are, what things are and are not moral.

      “v12 Paul moves to shut down Roman Jewish believers’ “confidence in the flesh” [Pp 3] (in their merely being Jewish) rather than being “doers of the Law”:

      No, not Jewish believers…Jews.

      “v15 Their obedience to God’s Law proves that there has been a work in their hearts where God’s Law has been written in them. They don’t have a physical copy of the Law written out, but the Spirit guides them into all Truth and writes God’s Laws on their hearts, and because they obey they are “doers of the Law”.”

      There is nothing in the context that shows these people to be believers. It directly states that they do some of the things contained in the law by NATURE and conscience, not the Spirit.

      “I. I disagree that the Gentiles in Romans 2 are unbelievers, since NO person who is not born again (be they Jew OR Gentile) keeps God’s Law.”

      Many unbelievers do not murder or commit adultery or steal…esp. of the older generation that was taught to life uprightly. They show the work of the law written upon their hearts. The commentaries and I agree.

      Shalom

    52. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:39 pm

      I am redoing the previous post for better clarity.

      Continued from above:

      You Wrote:
      “1. I evaded nothing; I believe all Scripture is true and that all Scripture must be upheld – if I understood it your way, I couldn’t uphold all Scripture.”

      Not so! I uphold all scripture to the point of believing that man is supposes to live by every word of YHWH including the Torah. You do not uphold that part of scripture.

      You Wrote:
      “2. Concerning the “Gentiles” who have the Law of God written on their hearts [Ro 2]: are you really trying to deny that these are believers?”
      They do no have the law written on their hearts. The Greek, the English, and the commentaries all say that they have the WORK of the law written on their hearts. The context of Romans 2 is speaking of unregenerate Gentiles that live by their consciences and that they do this by NATURE not by the Spirit. At this point in Paul’s argument he is not addressing the subject of believers but natural man that can know by the things that are made, and the way things are, what things are and are not moral.

      You Wrote:
      “v12 Paul moves to shut down Roman Jewish believers’ “confidence in the flesh” [Pp 3] (in their merely being Jewish) rather than being “doers of the Law”:”

      No, not Jewish believers…Jews.

      You Wrote:
      “v15 Their obedience to God’s Law proves that there has been a work in their hearts where God’s Law has been written in them. They don’t have a physical copy of the Law written out, but the Spirit guides them into all Truth and writes God’s Laws on their hearts, and because they obey they are “doers of the Law”.”

      There is nothing in the context that shows these people to be believers. It directly states that they do some of the things contained in the law by NATURE and conscience, not the Spirit.

      You Wrote:
      “I. I disagree that the Gentiles in Romans 2 are unbelievers, since NO person who is not born again (be they Jew OR Gentile) keeps God’s Law.”

      Many unbelievers do not murder or commit adultery or steal…esp. of the older generation that was taught to life uprightly. They show the work of the law written upon their hearts. The commentaries and I agree.

      Shalom

    53. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:42 pm

      Continued form above

      You wrote:
      “Paul said, even knowing and delighting in God’s Law, he did not have the ability [Ro 7:18] to be a “doer of the Law” due the Law of Sin in his flesh/bodily members took him captive to do what he hated: it was impossible (according to Paul) for someone who was not liberated from the sinful flesh (affected only through its dying – which death is gifted through faith in Christ) to be a “doer of God’s Law” – let alone to be justified by his being a “doer of God’s Law”. Are you really insisting unregenerate, unbelieving, ignorant-of-God’s-Law, ignoble Gentiles are Romans 2:14′s “doers of God’s Law”?”

      No. Paul is insisting that those unregenerate Gentiles that live according to conscience put to shame and judge Jews that are hearers only.
      If an unregenerate Jew (as Paul of Romans 7), who has explicit knowledge of God’s Will in written form, cannot be a “doer of the Law”, how much more impossible must it have been for an unregenerate Gentile who hasn’t such knowledge – and how could he keep it to that extremity whereby he might even be “justified” in God’s sight by virtue of that keeping of it (something even YOU said you don’t believe is possible)? How would these not, then, boast [Ro 4:2] – is Paul allowing in Romans 2 what he even disallows for father Abraham in Romans 4:2?”
      I fully believe that Romans 2 is not speaking of Gentiles being justified by keeping the law. It is speaking of Gentiles that live by conscience judgeing/condemning those that have heard the law and do not do it.

      You wrote:
      “That the Gentile kept even the smallest Commandment (as you believe Christ will judge by even the most obscure Law)?
      Nonsense!”

      Such rhetoric! I simply quote Yahshua’s words. If you do not believe them, so be it.

      Mt 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      You wrote:
      “The carnal mind is enmity with God, and cannot submit to God’s Law; those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

      I have quoted that very passage to you over and over and you still do not get it. There is no blindness so bad as covering one’s own eyes. The verses above state without a doubt that a carnal man cannot agree to keep YHWH’s law. You do not agree that we should keep YHWH’s law. Therefore you must have a carnal mind.

      You wrote:
      “! How do you know you’re in the flesh? You don’t have Christ’s Spirit. How do you know you’re in the Spirit? You have the Spirit of Christ. If you are not in the Spirit through faith in Christ, you are a sinner.”

      A sinner is one that breaks YWHW’s law. If we continue to break YHWH’s law we are not walking in the Spirit. You may say you have the spirit, but your works must prove that out.

      Shalom

    54. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:46 pm

      Continued form above

      You wrote:
      “Based upon what do you assert that unregenerate Gentiles, who do not have Christ’s Spirit, could submit to God’s Law and be justified [Ro 2:13] by its works – something Paul says is not within the realm of possibility (“…by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.” [Ro 3:20])?”

      I have never said that anyone can be justified by works. Paul says that unregenerate Gentiles keep some of the law by NATURE. That does not justify them, it testifies of the wrongdoing by those that know the law.

      You wrote:
      “Are there ANY men who are not dead in sins and trespasses”? If not, aren’t they all breakers of God’s Law? If not, are you contradicting your own interpretation of 1 John 3:4,5:3, “All sin is breaking of God’s Law” “keep God’s Commandments”? If they are “dead in sins and trespasses”, how are they “keepers of God’s Law”?”

      The Gentiles in Romans 2 are honest hearted men that show the WORK of the law, by NATURE some of the things that are contained in the law. They are still dead in their trespasses and sins if they have not been born again.

      You wrote:
      “IIa. Even if your interpretations were true (they aren’t), how could even they not work against you Bo?
      You would still be allowing, “Ignorant-of-God’s-Law Gentiles can be qualified to be called ‘doers of the Law’”.”

      Nope! You are quite confused. Read the commentaries again.

      You wrote:
      “Isn’t this the very thing you are denying – even in two different ways?
      i. You say no one can be justified by the works of the Law.
      ii. You say believers cannot live righteous without reading and doing the Law – they don’t qualify to be ‘doers of the Law’.
      In other words: if a Gentile who is neither regenerate nor knowledgeable of God’s Law can be qualified to be deemed a “doer of the Law” (even to the point of being justified by their keeping God’s Law – a thing which you’ve denied is possible [you said you held that faith in Jesus is necessary for justification]), how much more must you allow the same thing for “ignorant-of-God’s-Law *believing* Gentiles”?”

      Faith Justifies. Works prove that the faith is real. The law tells us what is good/right to do. To him that knows to do good/right and does not do it, it is sin to him. We are not allowed to continue to sin because of grace. We are not allowed to continue to do what the law says is wrong. Real faith wants to do YHWH’s law. Real grace gives us the power to do it.

      You wrote:
      “Why disallow as “impossible” for believers what you allow as “possible” for unbelievers – are unbelievers are of a purer nature than believers? Of course not! Believers have a new nature – they are new creations – and this is why it says they do “by nature” the things contained in the Law.”

      You are mixing contexts and deceiving yourself. Paul in Romans 2 is not speaking of new creation nature. The context in the first part of Romans is the natural way of things.

      Shalom

    55. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:54 pm

      Continued from above:

      You wrote:
      “Galatians 6:15 “For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a *new creation*.” A new creation doing what? Things that please God – God’s Laws – “by [their new] nature”.”

      Yep. 1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God. If we really have this new nature we want to keep the torah/YHWH’s commandments. You do not think that we are to keep torah.

      You wrote:
      “IIb. Let’s pretend, for a moment, that your interpretations are true (of course, they aren’t): even then, how could it be that this entailed Gentile obedience to “even the smallest commandment” (aren’t they justified by keeping the *whole* Law – not failing in any point, becoming breakers of the Law)?
      Do you really think (and do you have actual proof) there were Gentiles who loved YHVH with all their heart mind and soul without failure? Where are the Gentiles of history wearing tzit-tzits and single-fabric clothing, resting on Shabbat in honor of YHVH, observing Pesach (in Jerusalem, because they must go to Jerusalem), circumcising their boys on the 8th day, bringing tithes to priests, etc., etc., etc.,?
      If it is not speaking of keeping even the smallest Commandment, then don’t you allow that a person can be justified without keeping the smallest Commandment? Wouldn’t you, then, be contradicting your own dogma that men ought not teach men even the smallest Laws were nullified?”

      You see contradictions where there are none. There are no unregenerate gentiles that know by NATURE to keep the Sabbath and such. There are some gentiles that keep the Sabbath because it has been passed down to them by culture. There are even some that are unregenerate that read the Bible and have decided to keep the Sabbath. Their testimony will stand against believers that refuse to obey YHWH in this matter. Of course I allow that we will be justified without keeping the smallest or any commandment at all. We just are not allowed to continue to break YHWH’s commandments once we are justified. We will be either great or least in the kingdom by virtue of our commandment keeping and teaching. Messiah is the greatest. He did and taught for us to do them all.

      You wrote:
      “Which is it:
      i. Were there Gentiles keeping every single Law in order to be called “doers of the Law” OR
      ii. Are you nullifying your argument by saying they were justified without keeping every single Law?”

      Which is it: Are you confusing yourself by putting words in my mouth again or are you still beating little children with big sticks? The gentiles in Romans 2 were not justified, neither did they keep every single law. I have already answered this question multiple times.

      You wrote:
      “III. In denying the Gentiles of Romans 2:14 were believers, are you also denying “the work of the Law written on their hearts” was/is in reference to and/or a fulfillment of Jer 31:32,33 – denying that it is about how we are to come to know what God wants us to do as service to Him – i.e.: “come to know the Laws of God”? That those hear and who do this Law (written on their heart) qualify to be considered “doers of the Law”? Again, strange how you allow it for unbelievers, but not believers.”

      I deny that the Romans 2 Gentiles were Jeremiah 31 believers. They simply lived according to naturally imparted morality. The law that YHWH writes on our hearts by the Spirit is the exact same law that He wrote on stone and in the Torah. YHWH’s law is YHWH’s law.

      The idiom of “written on the heart” does not mean that we hear YHWH’s commandments in our spirit without knowing the law. It simply means that He will put the desire to do His commandments in us. We still need the written word to reveal to us YHWH’s righteousness and holiness standards. Keeping Sabbath is one of YHWH’s commandments. The real Spirit deals with our hearts so that we want to keep YHWH’s Sabbath.

      If we do not want to keep YHWH’s every word including zit zits and dietary laws, we are not walking in the spirit in those areas…probably because of false teaching. If we cannot agree with YHWH’s law in these little things we will not be great in the kingdom according to Messiah’s words. If we cannot subject ourselves in these little areas, we prove our carnal mindedness, for the carnal mind cannot be subject to YHWH’s law.

      Shalom

    56. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 8:59 pm

      Continued from above:

      You wrote:
      “Isn’t this exactly what is in view in Jer 31:31-33?
      How aren’t these exactly what are in view in Romans 2:14 – how is Romans 2:14 not a picture of Gentile partakers of the New Covenant [Jer 31:32,33; Ro 7:6] ?
      How AREN’T the Gentiles of Romans 2 regenerate believers?
      How DON’T believers qualify as “doers of the Law” without reading the Law?”

      I already answered these questions many times above. The new covenant is not about not reading the law. Or else, why would Paul write this:

      1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine.

      Evidently Paul would disagree with your analysis of his doctrine.

      2 Timothy 3
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      Evidently Timothy was made wise about salvation thorough reading Torah. Evidently Paul wanted His son in the faith to learn how to live correctly and teach correctly by reading it too.

      Why can you not see this? Eyes wide shut, maybe?

      They (the Gentiles of Romans 2) aren’t Jeremiah 31ers because that is not what Paul is addressing. The context shows what Paul is speaking about. Just because you see a similar phrase somewhere does not mean that the subject matter is the same in two different books. Context is always the first and main way to know the meaning of a passage. You are importing ideas instead of reading what is there. This will not likely produce truth in the end.

      Shalom

    57. Bo
      June 27th, 2013 @ 9:09 pm

      Continued from above:

      You wrote:
      “Yet, Romans 7:6 undeniably refers to the same method of coming to know “God’s Law”/”what God wants us to do in service of Him”, and of becoming qualified to be “doers of the Law” when it says “serve in the newness of the Spirit”.
      What is “new”, except in view of what is “old”?
      What would the old” be, except “the old way of finding out what God wants us to do in service to Him” – of “the written code”?”

      The old way and new way are not differentiated by the way we find out what YHWH wants us to do. The old way is outward imposition of law on an unregenerate people that refused to hear YHWH’s further commandments after only hearing the ten words. The new way is allowing YHWH to change our hearts so that no one has to make us learn and do His commandments.

      It is not old or new to read YHWH’s word to know what He desires. The words that people were inspired to write, that are now contained in the Bible, cannot be contradicted by the Spirit. Those commandments are the Spirit’s words as much as they are the Father’s and the Son’s and vice’ versa.

      You are using written words to try to teach us what you think is right. You are reading written words of men that you are using to understand what YHWH wants. Paul used the written Torah to teach believers. So, in actuality, you are using written words based upon written words of Torah to produce more written words.

      If we did it your way no one would listen to or read anyone’s words, because we would expect them all to just enter our minds by the Spirit.

      You are contradicting your very premise by using Paul’s written words to be taught and to teach. Why should we listen to a man that goes against his own teaching. Why should we listen to a man that speaks self-contradictory statements?

      You did not learn the things you say by only listening to a Spirit. You read them or heard others say them. And you evidently do not believe that the Spirit can teach us without the written word or you would stop producing so many written words. Your argument defeats itself.

      Deuteronomy 30
      10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
      11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
      12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
      15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

      Romans 10
      6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
      7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach…
      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

      The Spirit does not generally just drop in on people and impart the gospel to them. Someone has to teach and preach the truth. The men that wrote the scripture are preachers and teachers.

      The word is supposed to be in our mouths and in our hearts. This is another idiom. I hope you can get it. “In our mouths” means that we can recite it…that we have it memorized…or at least know what it says. “In our hearts” means that we want to do it. YHWH’s torah, that Paul quotes, is not too difficult for us if we know it and want to do it.

      The word of faith has not changed. It must be preached…if only by reading of the scripture. They cannot hear without a preacher. the Spirit of YHWH is not a preacher. Though He inspired men to write and to teach.

      The torah is the word of faith. It is all about the difference between life and good, death and evil. When we do not know it and desire to do it we are not walking in the word of faith…the word that we can trust. When we ignore YHWH’s torah to supposedly listen to YHWH’s Spirit, we hear a different spirit and we get deceived.

      The new way of the Spirit is about listening to those that the Spirit speaks through by writing and by mouth while having the desire to know and do YHWH’s every word. The old way of the letter is being forced into hearing and doing. The old way of the letter is working for salvation. The new way is working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

      Shalom

    58. Bo
      June 28th, 2013 @ 1:04 pm

      Continued form above:

      Romans 10
      6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
      7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach…
      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
      16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
      17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

      Terms like: “Preach the gospel”, “Preached”, Believed our report”, and “Faith commeth by hearing” all show that we need the words of men to know the truth. The Spirit by Himself, without a human agent, is not in veiw in Paul’s theology.

      Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

      The scripture is the final authority on any revelation from a spirit or message from a man. The Torah is what Paul told Timothy to use to know correct doctrine, the right way to live (instruction in righteousness) and good works. He said to give attention to reading the Torah.

      You teach directly contrary to Paul in this matter and think that the Spirit is the final authority. You think that it does not matter what the Word of YHWH says because only the Spirit has the right to teach us YHWH’s law. It is the Spirit that spoke through men in the writing of scripture. You reject that Spirit to listen to another spirit that does not uphold every word of YHWH.

      The gospel was preached to Israel at Mt Sinai.

      Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were DISOBEDIENT?
      19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
      1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
      2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

      It is the same forever. From the beginning of creation till the end of this heaven and earth.

      Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
      7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

      That everlasting gospel has two parts. Faith/fear of YHWH and obedience/worship.

      Here it is at Sinai:

      Exodus 19
      4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
      5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
      6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
      7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
      8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
      9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever…

      Here it is related to us by Peter:

      1 Peter 2
      5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
      6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
      7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
      8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being DISOBEDIENT: whereunto also they were appointed.
      9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

      We can stumble at the word being disobedient and not mix what we have heard with faithfulness, or we can keep His covenant and believe Moses forever. YHWH’s marvelous light includes the revelation of His Torah/instructions. Though the Israelites proclaimed, “All that YHWH says, that we will do.” they went back on their word. We do the same thing when we ignore YHWH’s Torah.

      We need to fear lest we come short of receiving the promise of entering His rest. The only way to do this is to learn YHWH’s every word and do it. The only way to do it is if we want to do it. It must not be grievous to us. The work of the Spirit is this: to cause us to love YHWH and His word. The power to obey comes from this love. This is what is meant by the Spirit writing YHWH’s law upon our hearts.

      2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

      The new covenant contains the same gospel as the old. It contains the same law. It contains promise of being kings and priests. But we have a part to play in insuring our calling and election, by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Not working for our salvation. Working it out by doing the good works that YHWH laid out before in His Torah, that Paul taught us to use for doctrine, instruction in righteousness and good works. And if we only did this it would make us just unprofitable servants, for this is our duty. We will also want to do those things that are pleasing in His sight that go beyond the letter. We will never truly go beyond the letter without knowing and doing the letter by the power of grace.

      Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

      1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

      Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

      Will we endure like true saints? Will we come short of the grace of YHWH?

      Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

      Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

      What is the root of bitterness that the Hebrew author to the Hebrews speaks of?

      Deuteronomy 29
      14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
      15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day…
      18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
      19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
      20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

      Walking in the imagination of our hearts means that we turn from obeying YHWH’s commandments to doing things like the nations around us. It means doing our own thing instead of keeping YHWH’s commandments. This presumptuous/willingly sinful attitude spreads and defiles many. What spirit would teach us to not obey YHWH’s every word?

      YHWH’s covenant and oath is made with those that were there and those that were not. That includes us all. The jealous wrath of YHWH comes upon those that deserve it. Those that deserve it are those that are the hearers only of the word that refuse to do it. They are children of disobedience.

      Shalom

    59. Bo
      June 28th, 2013 @ 7:18 pm

      Shabbat Shalom

    60. Dan1el
      June 29th, 2013 @ 7:00 pm

      Bo,
      I wanted to stay focused on the one issue of Romans 2:14, as I believe it is pivotal to this discussion.

      1. “I think that your pride is showing.”
      i. Commentaries are mere human opinion, not inspired Scripture; why am I “proud” to reject them?
      I’m sure there are commentaries which will teach the “pre-trib” rapture: would I be “proud” for disagreeing?
      Likewise, I’m sure there are commentaries written by proponents of (the oxymoronic) “Christian homosexuality”, wherein arguments would be made in favor of Christian homosexuality: would it be right to call you “proud” for disagreeing?
      The same reason you and I would disagree with those commentators is the same reason I disagree with you, and the commentators you cited, now: knowing God’s nature, my own experience with God and knowing the evidence, which do not allow me to accept that the Gentiles of Romans 2:14 were unbelievers. Based on the evidence, I am fully convinced (based on evidence) these Gentiles can be nothing other than believers; I am also fully convinced that you have not properly understood the contexts in which Romans 2:14 finds itself (as I will now prove).
      Bearing in mind that it is no uncommon thing for scholars to disagree, is condemning me as “proud” for not agreeing with a commentator – a commentator with whom other commentators disagree (one of whom being N.T. Wright, a leading contemporary New Testament scholar [see: page 11 of http://ntwrightpage.com/wright_Law_Romans2.pdf) a just thing for you to do?

      2. "They do not have the law written on their hearts. The Greek, the English, and the commentaries all say that they have the WORK of the law written on their hearts.
      Honestly, is there any meaningful difference between "the work of the Law written on their hearts" and "the Law written on their hearts"?

      No, there isn't.

      That there is "work" being performed is simply referring to God's ("work" of) "writing" (Jer 31 promise to the partakers in God's New Covenant) the His Law/Will in the believer.
      Does God "work"?
      Jesus seemed to think so:
      i. "My Father is working until now, and I work." [John 5:17]
      ii. “…the Father Who dwells in Me does His works.” [John 14:10]
      Paul also seemed to think so:
      i. “…it is God Who is at work in(side of) them to will and do for His good pleasure.” [Pp 2:13]
      ii. “I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the (Spirit of the) grace of God that is with me.” [1 Cor 15:10].

      3. “The context of Romans 2 is speaking of unregenerate Gentiles that live by their consciences and that they do this by NATURE not by the Spirit”.
      i. I would say the mere fact that they were said to have “by nature” done these things would already necessitate that these Gentiles be believers. How could you say unbelievers were “doers of the Law… justified” – “by” (their “carnal”) “nature”? Scripture never supports such theories. If Paul was not “by nature” a “doer of the Law” [Ro 7], how much less, Gentiles? Some of the things Scripture does say are that they are:
      a. “by nature children of wrath” [Ep 2:3]
      b. “not subject to God’s Law… neither, indeed, can be” [Ro 8:7]
      c. “in the flesh…” [Ro 8:9] by reason of not having “the Spirit of Christ” – thus, they “cannot please God” [Ro 8:8]
      d. “enemies of God” [Ro 5:10; 8:7]
      e. “taken captive to the Law of Sin” [Ro 7:23]
      f. “…sinful Gentiles” [Gal 2:15]
      Where are the verses teaching unregenerate Gentiles are “by nature doers of the Law”, because everything I’ve read (up to this point) says the opposite – thus, I must reject your view of the Romans 2:14 Gentiles: unregenerate men are not “by nature” “doers of the Law… justified”; they are “by nature” (that, without exception) law-breakers.
      ii. Are you not (perhaps unwittingly) teaching that an unbelieving Gentile’s conscience will be God’s “Holy” standard whereby He will judge the unbeliever at his resurrection for judgment? What about unbelieving Gentiles who see nothing wrong with homosexuality (e.g.: the Romans) – will God excuse them because their consciences are not bothered by these things? No. Does God really stoop so low on the Day of Judgment so as to use the conscience of an unregenerate man as His Standard? That is an abominable thought. If that were the case could God be a just Judge? Any sociopath could enter God’s Kingdom.
      If, on the other hand, Romans 2:14′s Gentiles are believers, then God is not lowering His standard in the day of judgment one iota: He put His Standard/Law into their “minds” (thoughts and consciences). Because the mind (thoughts and conscience) of the believer (unlike the mind of the unbeliever) is i. washed, and given new (God’s) life; and ii. informed by the Spirit of the Word (the “ingraft Word” [Ja 1:21] – whereby we are to be apprised of God’s will, and serve Him [Jer 31:33; Ro 7:6]), the believer’s conscience is converted into a “sounding board” (“a Law”) for him in the presence of his Lord, Jesus Christ (“unto themselves”). It is to believers that Paul says, “let each man be fully convinced in his own mind… anything that is not of faith is sin…”: if a believer does something he thinks is wrong (which he, thus, doubts is right [why does he do it, unless his body wants to, indulging in the flesh Col 2:23?]), his thoughts (infused with the Law of God) will condemn him (and his conscience will bear witness that he knew it was wrong); if he does what he is fully convinced is correct (with no doubts), his thoughts will not condemn him (his conscience – kept clear/clean – bearing witness).
      The believer “by nature” seeks to please God, thus is “by nature” a “doer of the Law… justified” in his actions, because his new nature is inherently holy – this is contrasted against those who try to find out God’s will on a piece of paper (which piece of paper was given to people because they were sinful [Gal 3:19; 1 Ti 1:9], and not holy – again, in order to condemn them [2 Cor 3:9] so they would cry out for a savior from themselves [Ro 7:24] – a reality which is not true for the believer).
      iii. What was in view in Ro 2:14 is 2:6-13
      “He will repay each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immorality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the Truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. For it is not the hearers of the Law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. For when the Gentiles, who do not have the Law, by nature do what the Law requires, they are a Law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law.”
      That is, the context Romans 2:14 “doers of the Law… justified” Gentiles is “being repaid by God according to our works” (the result of which will be: i. glory, honor, immortality, eternal life and peace [for patient well-doers], or ii. tribulation, distress, wrath, fury, [for self-seeking, disobeyers of Truth, obeyers of unrighteousness, evildoers]), which would have to be “eternal life”.
      Whether you realize it or not, what you are saying is, “These unregenerate, unbelieving, ignorant-of-the-Law Gentiles are going to escape the wrath of God by their own merits. They will also merit eternal life, since they are ‘justified’ by being ‘doers of the Law’ (well, they do [at least] “some” of the Law – such is God’s low standard), even though Scripture says ‘by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified’ and they are ‘in the flesh’ since they ‘don’t have the Spirit of Christ’.”
      Do you really believe these unbelievers (yet you call them “doers of the Law… justified” – justified doers of the Law cannot simultaneously be “in the flesh” because of not having the Spirit of Christ, “dead in sins and trespasses” [Ep 2:1], since “no flesh will be justified by the works of the Law”) will have merited (“He will repay each one according to his works”) eternal life? That view would not be an Orthodox Christian view.
      iv. The function of the knowledge of the Law of God prior to the New Covenant was to minister condemnation [2 Cor 3:9], and “increase the trespass” [Ro 5:20] (because “the strength of sin is the Law” [1 Cor 15:56]): never did God expect, “I will make men righteous by this Law”, since that was something He knew “…the Law could not do…” in that it was “weakened through the [sinful] flesh” of those under it [Ro 8:3]. “By the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified” [Ro 5:20] stands true – both for Jew and Gentile alike.
      Therefore, even if the unregenerate Gentile had “the work of God’s Law in his conscience” (or however you define it/see it as working), the Law would need to function in the same way: i. ministering condemnation upon any person who was not a partaker of the New Covenant, ii. arousing his sinful desires, iii. strengthening the man to sin, iv. increasing the trespass, v. disallowing him to escape the sin of boasting, and vi. he would never be “justified” by it. By contrast (to point “vi.”), these Gentiles are (according to your view – even unwittingly) a people who are slated to be repaid eternal life for being “doers of [the works of] the Law”. How do you deal with that? My view does not face that conundrum.
      v. Don’t forget that the entire context of Romans 2 is contrary to your contention (that “those [in this case, believers] who do not know the Law cannot be called ‘doers of the Law’”): Paul calls these unbelieving, ignorant-of-God’s-Law Gentiles, “doers of the Law” – but, how much more would a Gentile partaker of the New Covenant (who must have the Law written on his heart) qualify?
      How do you reconcile this with your contention that “believers MUST read Torah and live by its explicit knowledge if they are to be called ‘doers of the Law’”?
      As I stated previously, I believe God’s own righteousness is being revealed apart from the Law [Ro 3:21] – viz: “YHVH our righteousness” [Jer 33:16]. God, Himself is the (only) “Holy One”; His works (based on His knowledge – “call unto Me, and I will show you great and mighty things which you do not know” [Jer 33:3]: if you doubt God can impart knowledge to people, how did He bring His Law to mankind; what is a “word of knowledge”, etc., ?) are being accomplished through people who hear and submit to Him, [Ro 1:17; 3:21]. “By grace through faith” they “establish the Law” [Ro 3:31]. “Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of Christ”: if you think hearing the Spirit does not produce faith, why is the Spirit called ‘the Spirit of Faith’ [Gal 5:5]? How could Abraham qualify as a man of faith (which faith was “counted as righteousness”?) The Word of God is that Word which God’s Spirit speaks – otherwise, the Orthodox Jews would have to be the most faith-filled people on the planet, since they know tons of the Word of God. The written Word of God, itself, doesn’t produce faith towards God; it is the Spirit of Faith Who gives and authors faith which is “counted as righteousness” – whereby the righteousness of God is revealed [Ro 1:17].
      Again, you unjustly employ an self-contradicting double-standard when you allow that unbelievers who do not have explicit knowledge of God’s Law may be called “doers of the Law… justified”, but disallow it (based on what?) when it comes to Gentile believers who do not have explicit knowledge of God’s Law; this seems (to me) to be an injustice.
      vii. Why would Paul be comparing believing and regenerate Jews to the unbelieving and unregenerate – saying that these unbelievers will sit as judge over Jewish saints (and how would that work – would the unbelievers be resurrected to judge the believers at the first resurrection; then return to the dust to await the second resurrection and judgment at the Great White Throne)? He isn’t.
      How do I know, for certain, the Jews of Romans 2 are believers? The letter addresses a church – a church consisting of both Jews and Gentiles. The Romans 2 Jews are the same ones he is addressing in Romans 7, when he says, “you have died to the Law through the Body of Christ” (upon which “death” Paul bases his argument that they are free from the Law [it is binding upon a Jew only so long as he is alive [Ro 7:1]): that the Jews he is addressing have died, and yet Paul expects them to read his epistle (they’re not buried in the ground) proves that the Jews must be believers (not unbelieving Jews, as you later claim).
      Paul is comparing the miserable performance of believing Jews, Who are righteousness-snobs thinking they are better based solely upon their Jewishness, to the acceptable performance of believing Gentiles.

      4. “At this point in Paul’s argument he is not addressing the subject of believers but natural man that can know by the things that are made, and the way things are, what things are and are not moral.”
      I would disagree (see above and Romans 7, which states that even if they knew what was right, they could never do right and be earn the title “doers of the Law… justified”).

      5. “No, not Jewish believers…Jews.”
      I’m sure you don’t believe that. Did Paul write this letter to an assembly of unbelieving Jews (and would those Jews even care what Paul has to say?) with the expectation they would do him the favor of passing it on to the local assembly of believers? Sorry, but that makes no sense.
      Didn’t Paul write the letter to an assembly of believers? If he wrote to an assembly of believers, why wouldn’t he be addressing Jewish believers? Is it such a stretch – too far out in the left field – to believe there are Jewish believers in an assembly of believers?
      As I’ve already laid out, it is this same group which he later states has been freed from the Law by virtue of having died through faith in Christ [Ro 7]: Romans 2 is addressing Jewish saints; not unbelieving Jews.

      6. “It directly states that they do some of the things contained in the law by NATURE and conscience, not the Spirit.”
      Bo, this entire debate is about whether a person could be called a “doer of the Law” even without knowing the Law; now it seems you’re siding with me!
      Again I ask: can the same apply for Gentile saints, or is there a double-standard (and what is it based on?) – can saints be called “doers of the Law” without knowing the Law or do the unregenerate unbelievers who don’t know the Law own a monopoly over this moniker?

      6. “Many unbelievers do not murder or commit adultery or steal…esp. of the older generation that was taught to life uprightly.”
      a. A person who does “some” of the things the Law commands is not a “doer of the Law… justified” (as the Ro 2:14 Gentiles are); partially-obedient people are not given the appellation “doer of the Law” (that was the whole point of the Law: to “shut every mouth” with its “ministry of condemnation” – “by the works of the Law no flesh shall be justified”): “For whoever keeps the whole Law, but fails in ONE point has become accountable for all of it.” [Ja 2:10].
      b. In deed, “by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified” [Ro 5:20] – not even Paul ventured to deem himself “justified” in his efforts striving according to the Law (to think so would be error [Ro 9:32]) [Ro 7]. Are you telling me you think unregenerate Gentiles, who did not even have a copy of God’s Law, were more successful and reached a higher level of righteousness than a Pharisee who delighted in God’s Law like Paul? According to your view (righteousness is not possible without direct knowledge of the Law), this should have been impossible.

    61. Bo
      June 29th, 2013 @ 11:50 pm

      Dan1el,

      Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.

      With your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.

      Romans 3
      1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.

      And it would be good if you addressed the following or recant from the position you hold on rejecting the written word of YHWH for listening to some Spirit that contradicts His word.

      You wrote:
      “Yet, Romans 7:6 undeniably refers to the same method of coming to know “God’s Law”/”what God wants us to do in service of Him”, and of becoming qualified to be “doers of the Law” when it says “serve in the newness of the Spirit”.
      What is “new”, except in view of what is “old”?
      What would the old” be, except “the old way of finding out what God wants us to do in service to Him” – of “the written code”?”

      The old way and new way are not differentiated by the way we find out what YHWH wants us to do. The old way is outward imposition of law on an unregenerate people that refused to hear YHWH’s further commandments after only hearing the ten words. The new way is allowing YHWH to change our hearts so that no one has to make us learn and do His commandments.

      It is not old or new to read YHWH’s word to know what He desires. The words that people were inspired to write, that are now contained in the Bible, cannot be contradicted by the Spirit. Those commandments are the Spirit’s words as much as they are the Father’s and the Son’s and vice’ versa.

      You are using written words to try to teach us what you think is right. You are reading written words of men that you are using to understand what YHWH wants. Paul used the written Torah to teach believers. So, in actuality, you are using written words based upon written words of Torah to produce more written words.

      If we did it your way no one would listen to or read anyone’s words, because we would expect them all to just enter our minds by the Spirit.

      You are contradicting your very premise by using Paul’s written words to be taught and to teach. Why should we listen to a man that goes against his own teaching. Why should we listen to a man that speaks self-contradictory statements?

      You did not learn the things you say by only listening to a Spirit. You read them or heard others say them. And you evidently do not believe that the Spirit can teach us without the written word or you would stop producing so many written words. Your argument defeats itself.

      Deuteronomy 30
      10 If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
      11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not hidden from thee, neither is it far off.
      12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say, Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, that we may hear it, and do it?
      14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
      15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

      Romans 10
      6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
      7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach…
      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

      The Spirit does not generally just drop in on people and impart the gospel to them. Someone has to teach and preach the truth. The men that wrote the scripture are preachers and teachers.

      The word is supposed to be in our mouths and in our hearts. This is another idiom. I hope you can get it. “In our mouths” means that we can recite it…that we have it memorized…or at least know what it says. “In our hearts” means that we want to do it. YHWH’s torah, that Paul quotes, is not too difficult for us if we know it and want to do it.

      The word of faith has not changed. It must be preached…if only by reading of the scripture. They cannot hear without a preacher. the Spirit of YHWH is not a preacher. Though He inspired men to write and to teach.

      The torah is the word of faith. It is all about the difference between life and good, death and evil. When we do not know it and desire to do it we are not walking in the word of faith…the word that we can trust. When we ignore YHWH’s torah to supposedly listen to YHWH’s Spirit, we hear a different spirit and we get deceived.

      The new way of the Spirit is about listening to those that the Spirit speaks through by writing and by mouth while having the desire to know and do YHWH’s every word. The old way of the letter is being forced into hearing and doing. The old way of the letter is working for salvation. The new way is working out our salvation with fear and trembling.

      Romans 10
      6 But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above:)
      7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)
      8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach…
      13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
      14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
      15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
      16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
      17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

      Terms like: “Preach the gospel”, “Preached”, Believed our report”, and “Faith commeth by hearing” all show that we need the words of men to know the truth. The Spirit by Himself, without a human agent, is not in veiw in Paul’s theology.

      Ac 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

      The scripture is the final authority on any revelation from a spirit or message from a man. The Torah is what Paul told Timothy to use to know correct doctrine, the right way to live (instruction in righteousness) and good works. He said to give attention to reading the Torah.

      You teach directly contrary to Paul in this matter and think that the Spirit is the final authority. You think that it does not matter what the Word of YHWH says because only the Spirit has the right to teach us YHWH’s law. It is the Spirit that spoke through men in the writing of scripture. You reject that Spirit to listen to another spirit that does not uphold every word of YHWH.

      The gospel was preached to Israel at Mt Sinai.

      Heb 3:18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were DISOBEDIENT?
      19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief.
      1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
      2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

      It is the same forever. From the beginning of creation till the end of this heaven and earth.

      Re 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
      7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

      That everlasting gospel has two parts. Faith/fear of YHWH and obedience/worship.

      Here it is at Sinai:

      Exodus 19
      4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles’ wings, and brought you unto myself.
      5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
      6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
      7 And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him.
      8 And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD.
      9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever…

      Here it is related to us by Peter:

      1 Peter 2
      5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
      6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
      7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
      8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being DISOBEDIENT: whereunto also they were appointed.
      9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

      We can stumble at the word being disobedient and not mix what we have heard with faithfulness, or we can keep His covenant and believe Moses forever. YHWH’s marvelous light includes the revelation of His Torah/instructions. Though the Israelites proclaimed, “All that YHWH says, that we will do.” they went back on their word. We do the same thing when we ignore YHWH’s Torah.

      We need to fear lest we come short of receiving the promise of entering His rest. The only way to do this is to learn YHWH’s every word and do it. The only way to do it is if we want to do it. It must not be grievous to us. The work of the Spirit is this: to cause us to love YHWH and His word. The power to obey comes from this love. This is what is meant by the Spirit writing YHWH’s law upon our hearts.

      2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

      The new covenant contains the same gospel as the old. It contains the same law. It contains promise of being kings and priests. But we have a part to play in insuring our calling and election, by working out our salvation with fear and trembling. Not working for our salvation. Working it out by doing the good works that YHWH laid out before in His Torah, that Paul taught us to use for doctrine, instruction in righteousness and good works. And if we only did this it would make us just unprofitable servants, for this is our duty. We will also want to do those things that are pleasing in His sight that go beyond the letter. We will never truly go beyond the letter without knowing and doing the letter by the power of grace.

      Lu 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

      1Jo 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

      Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

      Will we endure like true saints? Will we come short of the grace of YHWH?

      Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

      Heb 12:15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

      What is the root of bitterness that the Hebrew author to the Hebrews speaks of?

      Deuteronomy 29
      14 Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath;
      15 But with him that standeth here with us this day before the LORD our God, and also with him that is not here with us this day…
      18 Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the LORD our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood;
      19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst:
      20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.

      Walking in the imagination of our hearts means that we turn from obeying YHWH’s commandments to doing things like the nations around us. It means doing our own thing instead of keeping YHWH’s commandments. This presumptuous/willingly sinful attitude spreads and defiles many. What spirit would teach us to not obey YHWH’s every word?

      YHWH’s covenant and oath is made with those that were there and those that were not. That includes us all. The jealous wrath of YHWH comes upon those that deserve it. Those that deserve it are those that are the hearers only of the word that refuse to do it. They are children of disobedience.

      Shalom

    62. Dan1el
      June 29th, 2013 @ 11:53 pm

      Bo,
      Please give a detailed response to each point. Please also order them sequentially. I need to know your response to each of these (except when they repeat, such as with the question of whether the Jews were believers).

    63. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 10:17 am

      Dan1el,

      I answered your post 39. It is your turn to answer my post 61.

      Shalom

    64. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 11:01 am

      Bo,
      I’d like to focus on Romans 2:14, because there are potentially millions of points we could talk about, but we’ve already begun discussing Romans 2:14 and it is absolutely key.

    65. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 11:34 am

      Dan1el,

      Romans 3 follows Romans 2 and is part of the immediate context. Also the idea of the Spirit imparting YHWH’s law is the central theme that we are discussing Romans 2 in the light of. So, please answer the parts of post that deal with this.

      Thanks,

      Bo

    66. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 12:42 pm

      Bo,
      Any point made in Romans 3 would be moot if it would serve to prove a point which has already been disproven. Why deal with the fruit if I could just deal with the root?
      As I said before, I believe the evidence points to the Gentiles being believers.
      I limited my reply to questions surrounding Romans 2:14, because everything else is just theory and allegations – why bother with that when we have a living example in the Gentiles?
      Why waste time going “all over the map” when we could just stick to one passage until we have reached its conclusion?

    67. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 1:53 pm

      Dan1el,

      You have already brought up passages way out of context to try to apply them to Romans 2. We need to get back to the context to determine what Paul was saying. You brought up the idea of the law being revealed by the Spirit. The line of reasoning that Paul is using is in sequence. He starts with unbelieving Gentiles in Romans 1, continues with that in Romans 2, then he brings the unbelieving Jew into the picture at the end of 2 and going into 3.

      You are the one that has gone all over the map. I am trying to bring the discussion back into context and deal with the ideas that you have erroneously imported into the text.

      I have already addressed the all of your points concerning Romans 2:14 and you just repeat yourself. I would only be repeating myself to answer again.

      Please answer post 61, especially concerning the Jews having much advantage, chiefly because they had the written word of YHWH. How can be an advantage, in your false understanding, over the believing Gentile?

      From post 61:
      “Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.

      With your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.

      Romans 3
      1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.

      And it would be good if you addressed the following or recant from the position you hold on rejecting the written word of YHWH for listening to some Spirit that contradicts His word.”

      Shalom

    68. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 2:37 pm

      Bo,
      With the Gentiles of Romans 2:14: I’d like to stick to a discussion on the facts surrounding their standing before God – how they got to be the way they were (“doers of the Law… justified”); how they stood to inherit eternal life (etc., etc.,). To me, everything else would be throwing around uncertain theories or allegations (“By your reasoning, there was no advantage to being a Jew.”, etc., etc.,).
      Romans 3 does not need to come into the picture; the immediate contexts are enough – the questions wouldn’t end with Romans 3, either, because similar questions are being asked all the way up to chapter 9:6 “It is not as though God’s Word has failed.”

      I am concerned that going into all these other areas will only serve as a distraction which will keep us from ever coming to a conclusion on this matter which was first raised in #11 (50+ posts ago).
      You could raise scores of challenges to my beliefs on the question of whether believers must read Torah and perform the mitzvahs to be deemed “doers of the Law… justified” (of course, I believe Paul would disagree: Romans 10:5-10 “5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “‘Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.” – there is a righteousness from the Law [wherein a person stands condemned] and there is a righteousness from faith [wherein a person stands justified]); but few would be as pivotal to the discussion as this question I raised of the “Romans 2:14″ Gentiles.

      Let’s go back: you made some comments about how you believed my view of the Romans 2:14 Gentiles was in error? I would like to address your objections (and I have). I know you’re saying you believe Romans 3 to be related, but we would just be veering off from the indissoluble truths surrounding Romans 2:14 in its obvious and immediate contexts. There are times when the immediate context is simple enough – e.g.: I don’t need to go a chapter further to understand that Jesus was crucified; I can understand that from the simple truths being expressed in the immediately surrounding words.

    69. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 2:41 pm

      Bo,
      You sure did give answers to my Romans 2:14 points; but since we’re in a discussion, I have raised more points in response to your responses; now I’m waiting for your answer to those.

      I’m sure you don’t believe that they are the same points – they most certainly are not.

    70. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 3:06 pm

      Dan1el,

      My response is post 61, 65, and 67. We are not leaving the discussion or even branching a bit away from it, as the context is the main source for determining the meaning of Romans 2. Romans 1 and 3 are the immediate context.

      If you cannot answer these posts with something substantial, you have not proven your point about the Gentiles in Romans 2 being believers.

      Shalom

    71. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 3:14 pm

      Bo,
      “If you cannot answer these posts with something substantial, you have not proven your point…” – I guess I could say the same (and it should hold the same weight) to you about yourself and #60 right?

      I am concerned that no matter how many valid responses I could give to anything in 61, 65, 67, you would just bring up more and more endless objections to those and we might never return to the simple truths of how the Gentiles of Romans 2:14 must be believers.

    72. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 5:40 pm

      Dan1el,

      If you cannot answer just admit you do not know the answer. I have already answered your assertions that you have posted multiple times. Please answer the following simple post. If you do not answer, then I have shown that the context proves your assertions to be incorrect.

      From post 61:
      “Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.

      With your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.

      Romans 3
      1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.

      And it would be good if you addressed the following or recant from the position you hold on rejecting the written word of YHWH for listening to some Spirit that contradicts His word.”

      Shalom

    73. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 7:27 pm

      Bo,
      Well, it boils down you saying you have answered them, and me saying you haven’t.
      Are you going to answer?

    74. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 8:33 pm

      Dan1el,

      No! It boils down to you not being willing to discuss the context of Paul’s statements. You can end the impasse by answering post 72. Here it is again:

      If you cannot answer just admit you do not know the answer. I have already answered your assertions that you have posted multiple times. Please answer the following simple post. If you do not answer, then I have shown that the context proves your assertions to be incorrect.

      From post 61:
      “Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.

      With your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.

      Romans 3
      1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.

      And it would be good if you addressed the following or recant from the position you hold on rejecting the written word of YHWH for listening to some Spirit that contradicts His word.”

      Shalom

    75. Dr Michael L Brown
      June 30th, 2013 @ 9:50 pm

      Folks, we don’t need yet another thread dominated by a debate about believers and the Law. There have been thousands of posts about this, many of them hijacking other threads, so please move the discussion to a designated thread instead — or better still, let it lie for now. Thanks!

    76. Bo
      June 30th, 2013 @ 10:29 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Thank you for your continued tolerance to views other than your own. I certainly believe that believers should obey YHWH’s every word, and would gladly defend that position here or elsewhere.

      That said, there has not been much discussion of believers and the law for quite some time on this site, that I am aware of, and this is not exactly a discussion about believers and the law. It is about the meaning of “the work of the law being written on our hearts.” I didn’t think the discussion here was hijacking anything since no one was discussing anything else. If we may have your permission to continue along these lines, I believe that subject matter is in need of discussing.

      And for the record, I did not initiate the discussion, but entered it on account of a comment early on, and I am attempting to bring it to a conclusion by discussing the context in which the passage in question is found.

      As to the thousands of posts concerning believers and the law, maybe folks here want to discuss such things as much as the pretrib rapture and calvanism. It is your site and I will attempt to follow the rules, but maybe you could initiate a thread about believes and the law or something along that line in the near future for the benefit of a new and lively discussion :)

      Thanks again!

      Shalom,

      Bo

    77. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 11:13 pm

      Bo,
      Questions:
      1. Did you read #60? It is so bizarre that you would claim to have already answered it when you obviously haven’t, I thought maybe you thought you answered them because you just glanced at #60 but hadn’t actually taken a close look at it?
      2. So, if you are judged according to your own standard, does your refusal to give a point-for-point reply to #60 prove that you cannot answer the questions – that you are proven wrong, and I am (by default) proven right?
      3. Am I also allowed to say I’ve already answered all your questions?
      If so, “I have answered your questions.”
      If not, why not stop saying you’ve answered #60?
      If you will neither allow me to say I’ve answered your questions, nor cease claiming you’ve answered mine, I wouldn’t be surprised. It reminds me of #60/Question 3/point v., wherein you allow unbelieving Gentiles who do not know the Law to be called “doers of the Law… justified” (strangely, simultaneously denying them their “justification”, in contradiction of the selfsame verse – selfsame phrase even), but disallow that believers (in this case, specifically Gentiles) who do not know the Law may be called “doers of the Law… justified” (demanding they read and obey Torah, lest they be unworthy of that title ["doers of the Law... justified"]): it is a self-contradicting/defeating double-standard – hypocritical, unjust.
      4. New Questions (you haven’t seen or answered them yet). If you claim:
      i. believers who do not read and practice every possible Torah mitzvah are not “doers of the Law… justified”, and
      ii. believers don’t really NEED to obey the Torah to be saved (to say this would be a “misrepresentation” of “Bo”‘s view – #17) – they only need to believe in Jesus to be saved – but, anyone who teaches the nullification of even the least of the mitzvahs (while not jeopardizing their *entrance into God’s Kingdom) jeopardizes his or her *place in the Kingdom (they could enter but may be “least”)
      …aren’t you teaching that “unjust” people (i.e.: those believers in Jesus who do not read/practice every Torah mitzvah possible – “whoever keeps all the law but offends in one point is accountable for all”) will enter the Kingdom of God?
      If you don’t allow that they will enter after believing in Jesus, wouldn’t you be you (falsely) declaring that no person who has not read and lived by Torah mitzvahs is going to be saved? Aren’t you, then, contradicting your own claims about the Gentiles in Romans 2:14?

      Seriously, setting those things aside for the moment: I don’t want to make Jesus look bad, so if you’re going to refuse to find it in yourself to be honest (you never answered the questions in #60, so you are being dishonest in claiming that you have) let’s just end the discussion with decency, in stead of allowing it to devolve further; otherwise, it is going to bring shame to God’s Name – and it is already beginning to (due to your lawless behavior).
      If you want, we can just part ways without name-calling or declaring ourselves the victor over one another (as you’ve already tried to do for yourself).

    78. Dan1el
      June 30th, 2013 @ 11:14 pm

      Dr. Brown,
      Certainly.

    79. Bo
      July 1st, 2013 @ 8:30 am

      Dan1el,

      You have time and energy to post and rant and rave and produce questions that seem different than the previous ones to you, but you cannot take 10 minutes to answer two simple question of mine concerning the context. Strange.

      I just want you to address this:

      Your problem is that you import your own doctrine into the text instead of reading what it says in context. Paul is beginning a complex argument and laying out the premises, not stating conclusions.

      In your view Paul’s next statement makes no sense.

      Romans 3
      1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?
      2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

      There is no advantage to being a Jew if the hypothetical Gentiles of Romans 2 in question are believers. In such a case the believers that do not know the law would have the advantage, but Paul says the opposite. The law could only serve as a disadvantage according to your doctrine, because you think that it is wrong to learn doctrine from reading the law, even though Paul instructs Timothy to get his doctrine and instruction in righteousness from the law.

      Question one: How can the Jew that knows the law from reading the written Torah have “advantage” to the extent of “much every way” over the believing gentile that has learned the law by the Spirit?

      Question two: Why would Paul tell Timothy to give attention to reading the Torah in the congregation and to learn doctrine, instruction in righteousness, and the good works that were before ordained in Torah that we should walk in them if he taught as you think that we should only get our teaching of the YHWH’s law from the Spirit?

      Shalom

    80. Dan1el
      July 1st, 2013 @ 12:17 pm

      Bo,
      Dr. Brown asked us to drop the convo.

      Good day.

    81. Bo
      July 1st, 2013 @ 1:30 pm

      Dan1el,

      He said we can shift it to a thread that is appropriate. Would you like to do that? Or do you give up?

      Shalom

    82. Bo
      July 1st, 2013 @ 2:00 pm

      Dan1el,

      I have reposted here for your convenience:

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/02/28/the-law-of-the-lord-is-good/#comment-357389

      Shalom

    83. Dan1el
      July 1st, 2013 @ 4:26 pm

      Bo,
      Dr. Brown said, “…or better still, let it lie for now”; even in the face of that, you want to force the issue, “…do you give up?” – if you want to abuse the fact that I am honoring Dr. Brown’s wishes, I can’t stop you.

      Good day

    84. Bo
      July 1st, 2013 @ 5:10 pm

      Dan1el,

      Once upon a time I had a next door neighbor that came over to play. When it was time to pick up the toys, he said, “I think I hear my mother calling.” and promptly left without cleaning up his share of the mess. I think that I just found another neighbor just like him.

      And I am not abusing anything. We have permission to continue on the thread that I gave a link to. You have refused to answer the questions from the first because it demolishes your false interpretation. Even all the conservative Christian commentaries that would love to have another passage to add to their arsenal against keeping YHWH’s commandments refuse your outrageous isegesis.

      And if I am not mistaken, you posted 77 after you knew Dr. Browns statement. This shows your true intent is probably not to honor his wishes, but that you simply do not have a valid answer and do not want to face the facts. Click on the link and give an answer for the hope that lies within you if you really have an answer. Otherwise you stand refuted.

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2013/02/28/the-law-of-the-lord-is-good/#comment-357389

      Shalom

    85. Dan1el
      July 1st, 2013 @ 6:29 pm

      Bo,
      Actually, you’re wrong about my #77; while I was working on it, Dr. Brown posted his #75 without my awareness.

    86. Dan1el
      July 1st, 2013 @ 6:31 pm

      Bo,
      I had kept the same page open; I didn’t leave and return to the site.

    87. Dan1el
      July 1st, 2013 @ 6:36 pm

      Bo,
      Not coincidentally, God moved me to close the conversation just as Dr. Brown wished – without my knowing he had asked us to do so in #75.

    88. Bo
      July 1st, 2013 @ 6:40 pm

      Dan1el,

      Was it “God” or the realization that you could not answer my questions in any way that would support your view. You sure did stall a long time. Convenient to not have to pick up your mess isn’t it?

      Your silence speaks volumes. You have the opportunity to answer still, but you won’t because you can’t without admitting your false interpretation.

      So be it.

      Shalom

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