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  • Don’t Ignore the Words of Jesus or the Dangers of Sin

    March 13, 2013 | 69 Comments

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    Dr. Brown focuses again on the serious teachings today that tells us to listen to Paul and not Jesus as well as any teaching that downplays the ugliness and danger of sin. Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

     

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: It is an absolute travesty that the words of Jesus, which many Bible translations put in red, other teachers today are trying to make invisible!

     

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: When we look at the cross we remember how destructive, how ugly sin is, the vast price that was paid; not just for our sin but for our salvation and our renewal.

     

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    Is Restoration Possible for All Sins? And a Listener Survey on Hot Button Topics

    Dr. Brown Interviews Steve Hill About the Dangerous Avalanche of False Teaching

    How Smart Does a President Have to Be? And The Greatest Sin of the False Prophets (and a Testimony of Liberty through the Spirit)

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    Comments

    69 Responses to “Don’t Ignore the Words of Jesus or the Dangers of Sin”

    1. Dan1el
      March 13th, 2013 @ 12:04 pm

      May God expose these false teachers bare for all the body of Christ to see, that they may not proceed further – “just as Jannes and Jambres” could not proceed further.
      May their teachings be brought to nothing.

    2. Ray
      March 13th, 2013 @ 6:20 pm

      I don’t know how it would be possible to be able to hear Paul but not Jesus. I think it would be like as if a man could hear Jesus but not John the baptist.

    3. Bo
      March 13th, 2013 @ 7:09 pm

      Ray,

      Those that use Paul’s words to negate Messiah’s words are guilty of this.

      One is guilty when he believes that Paul’s words mean something that is in contrast to the plain reading of Y’shua’s words like these:

      John 17
      17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

      Matthew 4
      4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

      Matthew 5
      17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
      18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Matthew 7
      21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
      22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
      23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

      If we think that Paul teaches us to not live by every word of YHWH which is truth and our Father in heaven’s will and that will also make us great in the kingdom if we also teach others to keep all of YHWH’s commandments (even the little ones about feasts, foods and fornication), then we are guilty of listening to our twisted version of Paul to the exclusion of Y’shua teachings. Some men do twist Paul’s words to their own destruction by claiming that Paul says that we can break the law. The error of the lawless/law breakers is quite common in churchianity.

      2 Peter 3
      15 And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him,
      16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
      17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

      This twisting of Paul’s words is more subtle than simply saying that we ought to listen to Paul instead of Y’shua, but it accomplishes the same thing in the end.

      Shalom

    4. David Roberts
      March 14th, 2013 @ 12:37 am

      I look forward to when a Bible is published with all of Yeshua’s words in red, specifically when the Targum says the Mem’ra of the LORD is speaking.

      They heard the sound of the voice of the word of the LORD God (Yeshua) as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day… and (Yeshua) said… Have you eaten from…

      For those who don’t have search software, here is all the places the Mem’ra occurs in Targum Onkelos:

      Genesis 3:8
      Genesis 9:16
      Genesis 21:20
      Genesis 21:22
      Genesis 26:28
      Genesis 28:20
      Genesis 28:21
      Genesis 31:49
      Genesis 31:50
      Genesis 39:2
      Genesis 39:3
      Genesis 39:21
      Genesis 45:21
      Genesis 48:21
      Exodus 10:10
      Exodus 16:3
      Exodus 16:8
      Exodus 17:1
      Exodus 18:19
      Exodus 19:17
      Exodus 24:2
      Exodus 38:21
      Leviticus 8:35
      Leviticus 24:12
      Numbers 3:16
      Numbers 3:39
      Numbers 3:51
      Numbers 4:37
      Numbers 4:41
      Numbers 4:45
      Numbers 4:49
      Numbers 9:8
      Numbers 9:18
      Numbers 9:19
      Numbers 9:20
      Numbers 9:23
      Numbers 10:13
      Numbers 13:3
      Numbers 14:41
      Numbers 14:43
      Numbers 22:18
      Numbers 23:21
      Numbers 24:13
      Numbers 33:2
      Numbers 33:38
      Numbers 36:5
      Deuteronomy 1:26
      Deuteronomy 1:43
      Deuteronomy 2:7
      Deuteronomy 4:33
      Deuteronomy 5:5
      Deuteronomy 5:25
      Deuteronomy 5:26
      Deuteronomy 9:23
      Deuteronomy 18:16
      Deuteronomy 34:5

    5. David Roberts
      March 14th, 2013 @ 12:41 am

      It seems to me that there’s a move of God back to Apostolic Hebraic Orthodox faith, while simultaneously those who are not joining are becoming more and more leavened.

      It’s like for so long the Church has been a mixture of good and bad, but finally now before the return of the Lord, a final separation is coming of the wheat and the tares.

      Those who want to surrender their entire lives and lifestyles over to the Almighty, even when they don’t fully understand why He asks certain things of us, and those who are becoming more and more hard hearted against the word of the Lord.

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      March 14th, 2013 @ 4:38 am

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    7. Joseph
      March 14th, 2013 @ 9:52 am

      “He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father’s which sent me.” (John 14:24) I do not say that the men who teach these lies do not love Jesus. Jesus says that they do not love Him. Meet Jesus for yourself, and you will know for yourself, for “they shall all be taught by God.” All who follow and trust in men are cursed. May you be blessed.

    8. Joseph
      March 14th, 2013 @ 12:57 pm

      Regarding the Bible series on History Channel: A listener took issue with the casting of a man of African descent as Samson. I, too, took issue with that casting choice. But THEN it occurred to me that Jesus isn’t Portuguese, and Mary wasn’t Irish, and Abraham wasn’t British. In most cases, no attempt was made to cast actors that looked even vaguely Semitic. So, if you don’t have a problem about the others, then you shouldn’t have a problem about Samson.

      I have only seen excerpts from the series, but their inattention to details that they easily could have conformed to Scripture made it clear that the writers viewed this as a dramatic endeavor more than a spiritual one, assurances of textual accuracy from Bible scholar Dr. Craig Evans notwithstanding.

    9. Ray
      March 14th, 2013 @ 7:06 pm

      Keeping feast days and refraining from eating certain foods (because those things were commanded under the old covenant) as if by law or direct commandment of God is not a part of the gospel of Christ.

    10. Dan1el
      March 14th, 2013 @ 8:39 pm

      Ray,
      Give Bo and David the last word (as they chiefly desire it), and move on – you won’t persuade them: I completely overthrew Bo’s arguments almost a year ago, yet he still manages to argue his false doctrines (I call it a “doctrine of demons” because “this persuasion does not come from Him Who calls you” Ga 5:8 [where else does it come from, then - if not from God - but from a demon?] and it fights against the knowledge of God – God have mercy on them, for their intentions may partially be good [and, in part, to boast in others' flesh Ga 6:13] but they are deceived by satan ["do not know where they come from or where they are going"] and threaten the wreckage of others’ faith).

    11. David Roberts
      March 14th, 2013 @ 9:04 pm

      So Ray,

      When Christ said,

      “I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer… do this in remembrance of me.” Luke 22:15, 19

      And Paul said to the Gentile Corinthians,

      “Let us keep the feast.” 1 Corinthians 5:8

      In your mind the Passover lamb has nothing to do with the gospel of Christ, and Him crucified?

      I leave you with the words of the prophet Yoḥanan:

      Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! John 1:29

    12. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:24 am

      Dan1el,

      Should we start calling you Daniel the Valiant since you are so impressed with your supposed victory over me. It sure seems like your the one boasting in your own flesh instead of me boasting in others’ flesh.

      Who is deceived, Daniel? The one that hears the word and does it or the one that hears it and does not?

      James 1
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Matthew 7
      26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
      27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

      One of Messiah’s sayings is this:

      Matthew 5
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      Daniel, both you and Ray make no bones about the fact that you do not do and teach all of YHWH’s commandments. And you both prove by your words that you listen to Paul, or rather your interpretation of Paul, over and against Messiah’s words.

      But we know that Paul was careful to qualify his statements so that there would be excuse for twisting what he wrote, as it appears that you and Ray do.

      Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
      2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

      Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
      16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

      Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…

      Ro 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…

      Ga 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid…

      What part of “God forbid” do you not understand?

      Shalom

    13. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:26 am

      That should have been:

      But we know that Paul was careful to qualify his statements so that there would be no excuse for twisting what he wrote…

    14. Ray
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:27 am

      David, when Paul said, “Let us keep the feast..”, is he saying that the believer must actually show up on a specific day, which is a feast day of the law, and do so, by law?

      Not at all.

      You would do well to not make a habit out of misunderstanding what people say.

      I will say it again. People who put others under law to keep feasts, and refrain from eating certain meats are trying to pass a check written on an account that has been closed for about 1,980 years.

      They will put up a lot of scripture, using God’s name, but it’s not much different than forgery is it?

      But if they wanted to be judged by the law, what would the law say? How would the law judge them for what they do? Wouldn’t they be taking the name of God in vain, or be guilty for not listening to Jesus when he said that man is to live by all the word of God? (for they leave out parts of Galatians at the very least.)

    15. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:42 am

      Ray,

      What part of “God Forbid” do you not understand?

      If what Paul wrote in Galatians is at odds with Deuteronomy, then one or the other is not YHWH’s word. If you interpret Y’shua through your understanding of Paul, you are putting Paul ahead of Messiah.

      If Paul is understood through the scripture that came before his writings then we have a consistent Bible.

      If Galatians seems to say, as you seem to think, that man is to live by every word of YHWH except this or that word, then we misunderstand Galatians…we twist what Paul was saying to their own destruction.

      2Pe 3:16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
      17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

      Stability is ours if we are law keepers by the Grace of YHWH. Lawless people continue to twist Paul against Y’shua’s words about keeping YHWH’s commandments.

      Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

      Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

      Twisting to their own destruction…wrath upon the disobedient.

      Shalom

    16. Ray
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:51 am

      Bo, One thing I find interesting is how under the law, one needed to do everything, not leaving any part of God’s commands undone, but since Jesus completed the work, now as a believer is in the new covenant, a part of the new testament in Christ, it’s more like he’s to make sure that in doing the will of God, that he doesn’t violate any commandment of God.

      Some people today go out to try to do it all, or try to convince others that they must do it all, but the work has already been done by Christ.

      When God says a Christian is no longer under the law, what part of that is he to not understand?

    17. Ray
      March 15th, 2013 @ 12:59 am

      Daniel, sometimes I wonder why I continue with people who might not ever understand. Maybe the answer is found in Isaiah 40:31.

    18. Dan1el
      March 15th, 2013 @ 1:28 am

      Ray,
      Trust me when I tell you that you’re wasting your time – you could show them the Truth of the Gospel a million times over and they would not listen, but continue to stubbornly cling to their doctrines of demons: “avoid disputes about the Law”.
      Leave them to their devices, and give them the last word…

      “leave space for the LORD to have revenge.”

    19. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 8:56 am

      Ray,

      It is you that does not understand what “under the law means,” though Paul defines it quite clearly.

      Ga 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

      Ga 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

      Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

      Being under the law means that we are attempting to be justified/saved by keeping the law. Being under grace means that we are accepting Messiah’s sacrifice for our justification. Galatians does not say that there is any part of the law that does not count as law anymore. Neither does any part of Romans.

      Paul, James, John, an Peter all agree that breaking the law is sin and that walking in disobedience deserves the wrath of YHWH. (Ro7:7; 1Jo3:4; Ja2:11; 2pe2:21; Co3:6; 1Jo3:7-8)

      Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      Transgression of the law is still sin. We simply are not allowed to continue to break the law once we are under grace. Doing so does despite to the Spirit if grace.

      Hebrews 10
      28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
      29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
      30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
      31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

      So Ray and Dan1el the Valiant, YHWH will execute vengeance…just maybe not upon the ones that you wish it on.

      And Ray, if you are not listening to Paul to the exclusion of Messiah, prove to us from Messiah’s own words that He says that it is good or right or fine to break YHWH’s law. Every word, means every word…and one thing that we know for sure is that Y’shua was quoting Deuteronomy when spoke of man living by every word of YHWH. So we know that Deuteronomy is part of every word of YHWH. To not do it is to not live by every word of YHWH. And if Paul taught us not to live by every word of YHWH, he is a false teacher.

      Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

      But of course, I do not think Paul did such a thing since he told Timothy to use what is referred to as the “Old Testament” to be instructed in living righteously, and to know what good works that were set up ahead of time that we were created to walk in.

      2 Tim 3
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      Shalom

    20. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 9:07 am

      Dan1el the Valiant,

      So far we have not been having disputes about the law. We have been disputing what the “New Testament” says. And it overwhelmingly tells us to keep YHWH’s commandments and that transgressing the law is sin.

      When you see us start to dispute about if healing on Sabbath is work or not or if you see us disputing whether or not one should wash his hands before eating, then you can bring that scripture up. Or if you see us talk about people needing to keep the law to be saved or justified then it might be time to bring it up. Until then, rest in your glorious victory that you had over me a year ago ;)

      Shalom

    21. Jake
      March 15th, 2013 @ 1:48 pm

      Why on earth there are so many teachers that try and say Jesus and Paul taught different things I’ll never know. Oh wait, They want to tear the Bible to shreds or as David Pawson puts it “write the Bible with a pair of scissors”. Such a travesty.

    22. Ray
      March 15th, 2013 @ 4:00 pm

      Those who pretend to hold to the law, but instead exercise legalism will be judged by the law, and nothing of it need be withheld, for Christ shall come to judge, and as he has said. He will not destroy any of the law, but rather fulfill all of it’s teaching and it’s righteousness.

      Those who hold others to the letter of it, who do not walk in sin, will be judged by the letter of it, because of their sin, and they will be judged by Jesus himself if they don’t repent and get saved by the power of the gospel, should they come to the cross and it’s saving grace by faith.

      That much we all can depend on.

    23. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 4:52 pm

      Ray,

      One thing is for sure…those that do not do the will of the Father which means that they are law breakers will be told to depart from Messiah. That we can depend upon. Lots of people think that they are saved, but are not.

      Matthew 7
      21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but /only/ the one who does the will of My Father in heaven.
      22 On that day many will say to Me, ‘Lord, Lord, didn’t we prophesy in Your name, drive out demons in Your name, and do many miracles in Your name?’
      23 Then I will announce to them, ‘I never knew you! Depart from Me, you lawbreakers!’

      No matter how much you want Paul to cancel Messiah’s words, he can’t. No matter how much you want the book of Galatians to contradict what Messiah said and set you free to sin instead of from sin, it won’t.

      Messiah is the judge and we will be judged by His words.

      Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

      Having faith in Messiah without keeping YHWH’s commandments is not enduring to the end. That kind of faith is dead.

      Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

      Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

      1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
      8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

      Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      You still do not understand “God forbid.”

      Shalom

    24. Bo
      March 15th, 2013 @ 8:26 pm

      Shabbat Shalom everybody!

    25. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 3:03 am

      Legalism is heresy. There’s no peace in it because it’s not of Jesus Christ.

    26. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 8:11 am

      There is no other gospel today other than the one Jesus Christ gave to his apostle Paul. For us there is but one gospel. Nothing Paul ever said or did ever went contrary to Christ, that anyone is aware of, after his conversion to Christ. He remained faithful to his calling as far as we know.

      Nothing Paul wrote is contrary to Christ. Those that promote anything contrary to Paul’s gospel will be judged by Paul’s gospel through Christ, who is the light and author of it.

      Some work to corrupt the teachings of Paul to get others caught into the bondage of legalism. This they do by handling the word of God deceitfully.

      They try to mislead others into a wrong way, a course that ends in destruction. They do so unto their own destruction. If they will not repent, they will not be saved.

    27. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 8:17 am

      I am aware that Paul wrote letters to condemn followers of Christ before his conversion. I enclude that statement here because there may be some legalists or other sort, who might take what I wrote above out of context, and try to make it look like I was saying something different than what I had been saying.

    28. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 8:27 am

      Bo, (post 23)

      You don’t understand what sin is because you hold the wrong yardstick, one made according to your own choosing, not according to the truth of God, for you assume others are in sin if they are not living under the old covenant law, even so far as to refrain from certain meats, or attend certain feasts on a regular basis, and keep sabbath days in strictness.

      The legalist expects everyone to hold up to their own rules, as if they themself are the authority of God, but they are under the workings of Satan, being used by him to destroy the things of Christ, whom they pretend to serve.

    29. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 8:38 am

      Legalists use a counterfeit measuring rod. Some go about to measure the temple of God by it.

    30. Ray
      March 16th, 2013 @ 8:42 am

      A legalist will try to prove that his measuring rod is the right one, not one designed by him, but it’s still the wrong one.

    31. David Roberts
      March 16th, 2013 @ 6:08 pm

      To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. Isaiah 8:20

      One who turns away his ear from hearing the law,
      Even his prayer is an abomination. Proverbs 28:9

      And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, on them there will be no rain. If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the Lord strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

      In that day “HOLINESS TO THE LORD” shall be engraved on the bells of the horses. The pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar. Yes, every pot in Jerusalem and Judah shall be holiness to the Lord of hosts. Everyone who sacrifices shall come and take them and cook in them. In that day there shall no longer be a merchant in the house of the Lord of hosts. Zechariah 14:17-21

      It seems your problem is not with Bo or myself, but with the Holy Spirit who wrote those passages by the hands of prophets and anointed ones.

    32. Bo
      March 16th, 2013 @ 11:20 pm

      Ray,

      Colossians 3
      5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, UNCLEANNESS, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and COVETOUSNESS, which is idolatry:
      6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

      Uncleanness-the state of impurity by virtue of contamination from something that has been declared unclean

      Covetousness-the state of lusting after or desiring those things that have been disallowed.

      Have you ever wondered if there was such a thing as an illegalist? One that sees almost every concept of obedience to “every word of YHWH” as legalism? I was just wondering…

      Shalom

    33. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 7:55 am

      To the cross! To the cross!

      Some people want to put all the law on others but don’t hear it themselves, nor do they live it. They go about to destroy the righteousness of it by legalism.

      Some fall into hypocrisy. They began their journey but they fell into legalism and became Pharisees.

    34. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 8:30 am

      Ray,

      Stop using the grace YHWH as a license to sin!

      Shalom

    35. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:24 am

      Legalists who misuse the law often accuse others of using the grace of God as a license to sin.

      Because they use an old standard for righteousness, such as a commandment to refrain from eating certain meats (which the Lord said he had cleansed- see Acts 10:15) and try to put others under it, they commit sin and transgress the law of God. Because they do not love God above their doctrine, they will not listen to him when he says something that was once unclean, has now been cleansed by him.

      If they do not come to the cross by faith and repent, they will die in their sins. What good then, did the gospel of Christ profit them?

      It’s even as the law teaches, that he who is born of the flesh will persecutes him that is born of the Spirit.
      (see Gal 4:21-31)

      But these who will not hear such teachings of Paul(which are of God by Jesus Christ, unto us who shall be heirs of salvation) use the law wrongly as an excuse to continue in their sin.

      But they will not hear the law.

    36. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:30 am

      We who believe the gospel of Christ are heirs of salvation. We have been redeemed by Christ and are no longer under the schoolmaster which once did not allow men to eat certain meats which were at that time unclean to them who were under the law for righteousness.

    37. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:44 am

      Ray,

      Mark 7
      6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
      7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

      Some people (not mentioning any names), use the the phrase “some people” far too much. I wonder if they think that they are being cute. What they are really doing is pointing the finger of a hand that has 3 fingers pointing back at themselves.

      The only person that qualifies as a true legalist is one that has invented their own law (probably by adding to and taking away from the perfect law of YHWH) and thinks that he has the right and the brains to judge others to be legalists because they do not agree with his version of orthodoxy. Now that is what is commonly called a Pharisee.

      Ray you’ve got one thing right. Paul does not disagree with Y’shua. And Y’shua quoted the law to tell us that we out to live by every word of YHWH. He told us that only those that do and teach others to do all of YHWH’s commandments will be called great in the kingdom. Those that fail to do and teach others to do even the smallest of YHWH’s commandments will be known as the least in the kingdom. You might have a chance at being least in the kingdom if you do not do and teach the dietary, clean and unclean, and feast keeping commandments, Ray…if those are the least commandments Messiah is referring to.

      Y’shua also told us that those that work lawlessness (have a lifestyle of commandment breaking) will be told to depart by Messiah even though they might call Him “Lord, lord.” Why do you call Him “Lord, lord” and do not all the things that He says, Ray?

      The kingdom of heaven suffers violence. Many break in by a false way. The enemy plants them in the field of good grain. I wonder if the tares look at the wheat and call them legalists sometimes. They might see those nice straight rows of wheat that have nice straight rows of fruit in their heads and say,”Those guys are legalists. See how they do not have the freedom to be planted between the rows and outside the boundaries of the field. See how the grain that they produce is all getting hard and is too precise too. Those guys cannot possibly be the real crop of the master. They are too stringent. They are too careful to stay in line. They just do not know how to live and let live. We must be the good crop, because we have not been weeded out the Master’s field. We must be doing things the correct way, because there are so many of us. We must be the choice grain, because we have convinced so many to follow us…growing between the rows and reading between the lines.”

      Matthew 13
      36 Then he left the crowds and went into the house. And his disciples came to him, saying, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds of the field.”
      37 He answered, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man.
      38 The field is the world, and the good seed is the children of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one,
      39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil. The harvest is the close of the age, and the reapers are angels.
      40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
      41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
      42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

      It is soooooo interesting that Messiah told many parables like the one above, but He didn’t tell even one about how it is bad to keep YHWH’s law and teach others to keep it. Messiah was upset by those that made the commandments of YHWH of none effect by inventing their own traditions and rules instead of simply doing what YHWH commanded. He said that they worshiped in vain.

      To be continued below.

    38. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:46 am

      Continued from above.

      Ray, the commandments that you do not want to keep are the ones about holiness. They are YHWH’s rules of conduct that set His people apart from the rest of the world. They show who is in the family of Elohim and who is not.

      1 Corinthians 6:17-7:1
      17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
      18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
      1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

      The unclean holidays and animals are not to be touched or eaten or celebrated. We are to perfect holiness by observing YHWH’s version of cleanliness and holiness, not by our version. If we are in His family, we should go by His house rules on diet and feast days. Why do you not want to show up at YHWH’s family feasts? Why do you want to eat things that are not on His menu? YHWH will receive us IF we agree not to touch unclean things…IF we come out from among those that participate in unclean activities.

      It is not just cleanness if the spirit that counts. We must cleanse ourselves in flesh and spirit…according to your friend Paul.

      We will not see YHWH if we are not found walking in YHWH’s version of holiness.

      Hebrews 12
      14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
      15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
      16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
      17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

      Without YHWH’s version of holiness, we will fail of His grace. We are saved by grace unto the good works that YHWH had laid down ahead of time in the scripture. That scripture that tells us what works are good is YHWH’s perfect law. Will we fail of the grace of YHWH like Esau? Will it be a morsel of pork or shellfish that we lust after that prevents us from walking in YHWH’s version of holiness? That we sell our birthright for? That we forfeit being great in Messiah’s kingdom for. (Those little commandments tell us a lot about who our real master is.)

      Will we continue to lust after forbidden things? Will we repent before it is too late? Has the root of bitterness (Deut. 29:18-24) continue to defile many through the false doctrine of “Jesus kept the law so I dont’ have to.”? Will you continue to say I will eat and drink what I want and celebrate when I want…sweeping away the moist with the dry? Will you continue to bless yourself and walk in the imagination of your own heart instead of walking in YHWH’s statutes and ordinances and receiving His blessing?

      James 1
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
      23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
      24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
      25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

      Self deception by disobedience to YHWH’s perfect law is difficult to get out of. Those that are deceived do not know that they are deceived…that is what makes it deception. False grace continues to tell us, “You are just fine, just stay between the rows and read between the lines…you wouldn’t want to become a law abiding citizen of the kingdom of heaven…oops…I mean legalist, would you?”

      Shalom

    39. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 11:01 am

      Ray,

      You wrote:
      “But these who will not hear such teachings of Paul(which are of God by Jesus Christ, unto us who shall be heirs of salvation) use the law wrongly as an excuse to continue in their sin.

      But they will not hear the law.”

      Please tell me how you are not saying exactly the opposite of the scriptures below:

      Ro 2:13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

      Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

      You see, the ones that continue in sin, which is transgression of the law, are the ones that are hearers only and not doers. They make the commandments of YHWH of none effect by their deceived version of what Paul wrote. They think that they can continue to transgress the law because of grace, but Paul tells us the opposite.

      Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      Being under the law means that one is trusting his own keeping of the law to save him or make him righteous. Once we are under grace, it does not mean that we can stop doing what is righteous. The law reveals righteous behavior. We are not allowed by grace to purposely transgress YHWH’s perfect law. Our faith does not make the law void, but refusing to hear and do the law because of our own rules and ideas makes our worship into vanity.

      Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Mark 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

      Maybe you should have written: But these who will not hear such teachings of all of scripture(which are of God by Jesus Christ, unto us who shall be heirs of salvation) use what Paul wrote wrongly as an excuse to continue in their sin.

      But they will not hear the law or the one that rose from the dead.

      Lu 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      Shalom

    40. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 11:36 am

      Ray,
      This is the conversation I had w/Bo on the topic a year ago:

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2011/10/28/dr-brown-answers-your-questions-38/comment-page-9/#comment-154201

      I won’t be telling you not to talk with him anymore; you have to figure that one out yourself.

      Good day to you Ray – stay in Grace

    41. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 12:22 pm

      Ray,
      “If by my lie God’s glory abounds why am I faulted?”
      Paul’s condemnation was a revelation of God’s righteousness;
      Those who pretend they’re righteous through the Law,
      Make God into a liar,
      Suppressing Truth of God’s righteousness in unrighteousness,
      Ignorant of God’s righteousness [revealed APART FROM THE LAW]
      Going about to establish their own righteousness [Ro 10:3]
      Boasting in perfect filth-rags, which Paul counted loss [Pp 3:1-9]

      Good day

    42. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 12:47 pm

      Dan1el the Valiant,

      You wrote:
      “I completely overthrew Bo’s arguments almost a year ago, yet he still manages to argue his false doctrines” in post # 10.

      Or are you really the wizard of Oz? (The man behind the curtain is not as powerful as some might think.) Since you have boasted on many occasions that you totally defeated me in dialogue concerning what the “New Testament” teaches and will no longer dialogue with me and since you continue to boast and tell others to stop the dialogue, I will consider this a monologue and do not expect that you will answer.

      Who is lying about what Paul preached? Who uses scripture out of context? Who accuses the other falsely?

      I do not preach salvation by works. I do not teach that we are under the law. I do not say that I am righteous by my keeping the law. You have misrepresented me and you misrepresent Paul and the other apostles. I do not boast, but you do. Paul did not stop keeping the law, though he counted his attempts at earning righteousness by keeping the law as dung. He was saved by grace and continued to keep the law, not to get saved, but because he was saved.

      Who suppresses the truth in unrighteousness? Those that continue to sin (transgress the law) after they know the truth of Messiah’s words. Those that teach that the law is made void by faith. Those that teach that we can transgress the law because we are under grace. Yes, Dan1el the Valiant, you are guilty as charged…by Paul.

      Ro 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law…

      Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

      Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
      2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

      Ro 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

      The law tells us what things are sin. We should not transgress it (sin) though we are under grace.

      I ask once more: What part of “God forbid” do you not understand?

      Shalom

    43. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 1:05 pm

      Bo,
      Wow!
      I can’t believe you can’t see it!
      I see, now, how I can be blinded to something,
      Even if it is staring me right in the face.
      Wow.

    44. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 2:39 pm

      Dan1el the Valiant,

      Here is just another time that the truth is staring you right in the face…and you can’t see it.

      The law tells us what things are righteous and what things are sin. We should not sin now that we are under grace. 2+2=4 Therefore those that are under grace should not transgress the law. It is still sin to transgress the law even thought we are not under it. Even though we are not justified by the law, we are not allowed to transgress it…because it is still the revelation of righteousness and holiness.

      Ro 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
      14 For we know that the law is spiritual:

      Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
      6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
      7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

      So the carnal minded man just cannot subject himself to YHWH’s law. The spiritual, New Covenant man loves YHWH’s law. It is written on his heart and mind and it is not grievous for him to keep YHWH’s commandments. He wants to keep all of YHWH’s perfect law, not to obtain righteousness, but because he is righteous…and truly righteous people do righteousness.

      Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

      1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      Pretty obvious, don’t you think?

      Shalom

    45. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 2:52 pm

      Bo,
      Plain and simple, you’re misunderstanding Paul [2 P 3:16], despite his absolutely unequivocal words. You don’t understand because you are unspiritual untaught and unstable.

      Will not be continuing in this chat.

    46. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 2:53 pm

      You’re also a dangerous heretical teacher of demonic doctrines who will give an account for every soul whose faith he destroys.

    47. Dan1el
      March 17th, 2013 @ 3:30 pm

      Bo,
      You are precisely the type of heretic whom Paul declares “anathema”: you are preaching “another Gospel” and “another Jesus” – a “doctrine of demons” and with your mouth “which must be stopped” you are inciting rebellion against God [Dt 13] by teaching men to disobey the Truth [Ga 5:7] and are in practice without a doubt a destroyer of the faith – for which you will give an account.

      All I have to say to you is: repent.

    48. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 4:39 pm

      Ray,

      First, I believe in salvation by grace through faith! You can eat pork all day every day and as long as you believe in Yeshua you are saved. I’ll go further I believe a man can be a murderer and as long as he believes in Yeshua he is saved. If that is not salvation by grace through faith I don’t know what is.

      Second, you should read Acts 10 again. The whole chapter this time. Pay close attention to verse 28. It’s painfully obvious that Acts 10 is talking about men not meat.

      Shalom

    49. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 4:42 pm

      Daniel,

      Be careful, how you judge you will be judged.

      Shalom

    50. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 5:09 pm

      I believe the vision given to Peter about what has been cleansed by God is both about meat and men.

      I know a man who is a Christian serving his time in prison for multiple murders which he committed at one time, years ago. He suffers terribly for what he did. He knows the pain of his former actions. He suffers great remorse.

      Yet he tells me that in the presence of God, he knows his sins are forgiven and he has heavenly peace.

      Still he carries the trouble of his former actions some times, something of the nature of the old self I suppose. He talked about how the blood of the innocent calls for vengence, and also how the blood of Christ covers.

      Something of the soul, and something of the Spirit, I suppose. (Heb 12:24)

    51. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 6:43 pm

      Dan1el,

      The scriptures I quote prove my points. You cannot prove that they say something different. It is just too obvious to those that read them for what they straightforwardly say.

      You evidently think that you are an apostle or something the way you pass out judgment and anathemas. You think that you have proven me wrong and boast about it. It is evident that you know how to accuse me of heresy and misrepresent my position. The real heretic (hairetikos-literally chooser) is one that picks and chooses what scripture he wants to obey instead of living by every word of YHWH. This is nothing less than self worship and eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Those that keep YHWH’s commandments will get to eat from the tree of life.

      Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Pride and disobedience to the scripture will be judged. Real grace causes us to obey YHWH’s law not disobey it. I am afraid that a little dog has pulled the curtain back that you hoped would hide your real identity. You are not as great and powerful as you want us to think.

      Peter speaks of those that twist Paul’s words as the ones that are led away with the error of the law breakers. I certainly am not teaching others to break YHWH’s law. You, on the other hand…

      2 Peter 3
      16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
      17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability.

      Shalom

    52. Bo
      March 17th, 2013 @ 6:50 pm

      Ray,

      Acts chapter 10 gives the interpretation of the vision. Why do you not just believe what it says instead of adding your own twist. That you are reading between the lines and inventing what you would like it to say so that you can satiate your lust for forbidden unclean meat is obvious.

      I wrote the following a while ago:

      “The voice in the vision says “what I have cleansed, call thou not unclean.” It does not state, “I have cleansed these animals.” We find out exactly what He had cleansed in the following verses. “Those from every nation…”

      Rev.18
      1 And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
      2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

      This passage is relating a vision that John had. As you can see the term “unclean” is used in relation to an animal. If it had been cleansed in Acts 10 then how did it become unclean again?

      The answer is simple. In these two visions “unclean” animals/birds stand for something symbolically. The unclean animals stand for gentiles/nations. The unclean birds stand for evil spirits and/or people/nations that are possessed by them. YHWH is not willy nilly changing his mind on the topic of which animals he has designed for us to eat.

      Symbols like these are found throughout the scripture in dreams and visions. To take them literally is not in keeping with sound interpretational procedures. In some cases, like the passage in Acts 10, it is ignoring the divine interpretation and the intended purpose of the vision.

      Dr. Michael Brown, in “Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus”, volume 4, says this of Acts 10:9-16 on page 27-275:

      ‘Now, this has often been interpreted as a
      divine command for Peter to eat treif (i.e.
      unclean food), but the text says nothing of
      the kind. Rather, as Peter was soon to
      understand…”God has shown me that I should
      not call any man impure or unclean.” (Acts
      10:28b). but that is not the point I want to
      emphasize here. Rather, it is Peter’s earlier
      response to the visionary command to kill and
      eat unclean animals…If his Master and Teacher
      had revoked the dietary laws, as some have
      understood Mark 7:19, surely Peter would have
      understood, especially if Peter had been a
      primary source of mark’s information.’”

      I also wrote this:

      n the vision it is stated to “rise, kill and eat.” As you know, dreams and visions usually need an interpretation. Peter was given the interpretation. He did not go and eat Cornelius. He didn’t go and eat an unclean animal. The interpretation had nothing to do with actually eating unclean animals…or even eating gentiles for that matter. But the vision sure got Peter’s attention.

      The interpretation was just and only: What YHWH has cleansed do not call unclean…call no man common or unclean…that YHWH accepts those of every nation that work righteousness and fear Him.

      That dream or the interpretation does not say that YHWH made unclean animals clean or that He made all gentiles clean. The only gentiles that He has cleaned are the ones that work righteousness and fear Him.

      Ray, you can read a lot of things that are not there nor eluded to by reading between the lines.

      The interpretation is the interpretation. We have no right to say it means more than YHWH and Peter said it meant…Or maybe we should tell the baker in Egypt that the birds eating out of his basket meant that the gentiles would like his pastries and is not only about his death sentence?

      Or Maybe we should intrerpret Pharaoh’s dream to mean that there would be new breeds of cattle. One would be fat free and eat other cattle instead of grass. Another would make good zero calorie meals no matter how fat they were.

      One thing we know for sure. Some animals were considered unclean at the time that Revelation was written. If YHWH had cleansed all the unclean animals and fowls as you say Ray, then why does He still make a differentiation in the last book of scripture?

      Re 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

      Eating unclean animals makes us unclean. Eating or wanting to eat those things that YHWH calls unclean is covetousness. It is Idolatry too, for Paul says:

      Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
      6 For which things’ sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
      7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

      It would be good to stop doing and teaching others that it is not bad to do those things that cause the wrath of YHWH to come on the children of disobedience. Peter and John never taught that the animals that YHWH calls unclean were OK to eat. Neither did Paul, but people twist his words to go against the rest of scripture.

      Shalom

    53. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 7:26 pm

      Ray,

      Your friend is a living example of the power of the blood to forgive sins. But just because YHWH will forgive murder does not give us the right to commit murder when ever we want. That is all I’m saying about the other commandments. Like eating pork. I think Acts 10 is only talking about people not meat. Just like Matt 16:6-12 is only talking about doctrine and not bread.

      Shalom

    54. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:04 pm

      I think we all should agree that a man who continues to murder is not on the path of salvation, at least not while he continues on such a sinful, evil path, having neither remorse nor repentance about killing, but what of one who eats bacon with many of his breakfasts each month?

      Is he living in sin by doing so? I say no.

      Barrett, what is your opinion on this, about bacon?

      What about the man who has a doctrine that says that eating bacon is a sin for whoever does it at any time? Has he fallen into legalism?

    55. Ray
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:48 pm

      Since men are not under the law, it’s sin for them to stone someone to death if they were to commit sins that were worthy of death by stoning under the law.

      For me to say so isn’t that I despise the law, it’s that I appreciate the grace of God.

      For me to say so, isn’t that I promote sin by saying grace is to be used as an excuse to sin, rather what I am saying is that it’s good for us to be under the grace of God and to respond to that grace in thanksgiving and to love God back for the wonderful grace he has given us by Jesus Christ, his Son, who gave his life for us that we might be saved by grace.

      Do men who would judge me wrong in this, despise the grace of God, and thereby frustrate such grace, which is the result of the work of Christ?

      And how can we tell if how we judge is of men or of God? If the way we judge others determines that we in fact are guilty of the same things that we accuse others of, we can conclude that our judgment is of the flesh and not of God.

      The law is most certainly of God, and also is his grace. The grace of God is just as much of God as the law is.

    56. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 10:56 pm

      Ray,

      Is a man who eats bacon with many of his breakfasts a month living in sin? I believe he is. But I also believe that a man can be living in sin and still be saved. Look at Gideon who was an idolater, and Samson who was a womanizer, and even King David who on his death bed arranged the murder of a man he had supposedly forgiven years before. Thank YHWH for his grace is all I can say.

      As for your second question. No, I do not believe it is legalism to say it is a sin to eat pork. But I do believe it is legalism to say that you have to not eat pork to be saved.

      The moment we say we have to believe in Yeshua and whatever, wether it is don’t eat pork or don’t murder or don’t have sex outside of marriage in order to be saved we have crossed into legalism. That is salvation by works not faith.

      Shalom

    57. Barrett
      March 17th, 2013 @ 11:06 pm

      Ray,

      You are right. We should be thankful for the grace of YHWH. People say they are thankful without works, but I show I’m thankful by my works.

      Shalom

    58. Bo
      March 18th, 2013 @ 8:32 am

      Ray,

      You wrote:
      “Since men are not under the law, it’s sin for them to stone someone to death if they were to commit sins that were worthy of death by stoning under the law.”

      The death penalty for murder existed from at least the time of Noah. Is it the stoning that is the sin or the death penalty?

      Are all men under grace or just the believer? If only the believer, then they only are exempt from capital punishment. If all men are under grace, then everyone is saved and there is no need for them to believe the gospel.

      Grace does not do away with temporal punishment for crimes. It is still right to enforce civil penalties. Grace does not do away with what YHWH’s law says is a crime. It provides eternal salvation for those that have broken YHWH’s law.

      Being under grace doesn’t legally relieve us of earthly justice. We cannot tell the earthly judge that because we are under grace he must not put us in prison or enact restitution or make us pay for court costs or that he may not sentence us to death.

      Earthly justice systems are all flawed. The only perfectly righteous judgements are the ones found in YHWH’s law. When we or our societies impose law or justice that is at odds with YHWH’s declarations of what is to be punished and how, we have perverted justice. We might not get caught or we might be given a light sentence or we might be convicted wrongly and punished for something that we are not guilty of by a earthly court, but that does not change YHWH’s unchanging law about what is wrong to do and what punishment is to be carried out.

      Murder, Homosexual acts and adultery still deserve the death penalty. Witches still deserve the same. Our civil governments are at odds with YHWH’s law.

      Since the Messianic kingdom is still in the future, Y’shua’s assembly does not have civil authority to put people in prison or to make them pay restitution or to carry out the death penalty. We still are to testify in earthly courts against those that have committed crimes so that justice will be served. We still are to uphold YHWH’s law as far as us calling sin what He calls sin in His law. We are allowed, and even commanded, to disassociate with anyone that is called a brother that continues obstinately in sin. Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s law.

      YHWH has not removed His righteous judgements from the earth. He has empowered civil governments to carry out justice even unto the death penalty. He has called believers to judge righteous judgment by upholding His law as the standard of right and wrong, holy and unholy, clean and unclean. He has not called us to set up an earthly government, but to wait till we rule and reign with Him in the millennium to carry out His justice as far as sentencing and penalties are concerned. Messiah’s kingdom is not of this world, yet.

      Maybe I have misunderstood your statements, but as far as I can see they are against what scripture teaches. Believers are not exempt from the death penalty and unbelievers are not under grace.

      David was not stoned to death because there were not 2 or 3 witnesses against him. He deserved to die. The woman caught in adultery was not stoned to death because there were not 2 or 3 witnesses willing to testify honestly and implicate the man or to testify dishonestly, probably because they knew that a false witness in this case was to punished with death by stoning. YHWH’s judgments are true and righteous altogether.

      Ps 19:7 ¶ The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
      8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
      9 The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
      10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
      11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
      12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
      13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
      14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.

      If only believing men would actually believe the passage above…the world would be a better place.

      Shalom

    59. Barrett
      March 18th, 2013 @ 10:48 am

      Ray,

      It is funny how many Christians can believe in the death penalty for murder by lethal injection or even the electric chair, but the moment someone says we should stone them they get accused of legalism and being under the law or trying to earn salvation by works.

      Shalom

    60. Earl Click
      March 18th, 2013 @ 11:05 am

      I wrote this and posted it elsewhere but do not feel anyone has respnded to it well. What do you think?

      “I do not try and downplay the words in red but we must not overlook that Jesus was sent to the Jews and had to live perfectly under the Law both in word and heart. He obeyed the Law and died so that we might receive grace not so we would have the perfect example to know how to live the Law out as He himself did. He said John the Immerser preached the gospel, and then he Jesus preached it. Paul also said he preached a gospel he described as ‘my gospel’ in Rm. 2:16. This is clearly a statement that the gospel that Jesus ministered had changed after the cross and now the correct understanding of it is being revealed through Paul and the other men who preached post resurrection. It would seem to me that what we must do is understand what Paul preached as needed in order to live out the God-pleasing life well. The council of Jerusalem said that if we did the 4 things listed in Acts 15 we are doing well. Are we now to think that by adding to it we attain a higher status ? I can see no reason to add anything to the 2 commandments, love God and love others. If we walk in love the Law has no place to abide in our life.”"
      and yes there is something called legalism. Foolishnes was the great apostles words to those who endeavored to be perfected by the works of the flesh. I notice he directly tied its fruit to their inability to receive the miracles in their life. And that is a rather accurate summation of what we see in much of mainstream Christianity in the US of A today. The flesh erecting a wall of unbelief and hindering the Lords works of power from coming to the rescue of His people.
      love ya, earl click

    61. Barrett
      March 18th, 2013 @ 4:59 pm

      Earl,

      Here are a few reasons why I don’t think that Shaul’s (Paul’s) Gospel did away with Torah observance.

      1) Kepha (Peter) said Shaul didn’t

      2Kepha(Peter)3:15 And count the patience of our Master as salvation, just as our beloved brother Shaul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, 16 as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. 17 You therefore, beloved, knowing this beforehand, take care that you are not carried away with the error of lawless people and lose your own stability. 18 But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Master and Savior Yeshua HaMashiach. To him be the glory both now and to the day of eternity. Amen.

      The first thing we see in this passage is that our salvation only comes from the patience of Yeshua. Obviously Kepha is talking about His death on the cross. Second, we notice that this is what Shaul was teaching in his letters. The third thing we see is that there are some things in Shaul’s letters that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures. And finally we see that Kepha warns us how these ignorant people, are twisting Shaul’s writings. He simply calls them lawless. Here we have Kepha himself telling us not to listen to people that teach that Shaul taught not to keep the Torah! Kepha makes it clear that whatever you get out of Shaul’s letters you can’t get that you do not have to keep the Torah without being ignorant and/or unstable. Sadly most of Christianity just ignores Kepha’s warning, marching on blindly with Shaul remade into their own image of lawlessness.

      2) There is a saying. Talk is cheap. Apparently the Believers in Jerusalem had a similar saying because when they heard rumors spread about Shaul teaching not to keep the Torah they confronted him about it. And made him put his true belief and teachings into action.

      Acts21:18 And the day following Shaul went in with us unto Yaakov; and all the elders were present.
      19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things Elohim had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
      20 And when they heard it, they glorified YHWH, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the Torah:
      21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moshe, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
      22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
      23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
      24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the Torah.
      25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
      26 Then Shaul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

      Here we see that there were thousands of Jewish believers in Yeshua, and that they ALL were zealous for the Torah. We also see that there were rumors about Shaul. Specifically that he was teaching the Jews in the diaspora not to circumcise their sons, nor to keep the Torah. Sounds like what most of Christianity teaches today. Lastly we see that these rumors are false and that Shaul himself keeps the Torah! He proves his devotion to the Torah by going to the temple and fulfilling a strictly ceremonial aspect of the Torah! Showing that not just the moral but ceremonial aspects of Torah still apply after the death, burial, resurrection and ascension of Yeshua! And the pouring out of the Ruach HaQodesh! Now some people admit that this passage proves that the Torah still applies to Believers with Israelite ancestry, but (because of verse twenty five) they insist that Gentile Believers are different and only those four commands of Torah would apply to them. By the way three of the four commands are dietary in nature clearly putting them in the ceremonial part of Torah. If it is true that only these four apply to Gentile Believers, what about the greatest and second greatest commandments? Do they not apply to Gentile Believers? What about murder, or lying, or stealing? If this passage is to be interpreted to mean that only those four commands apply to Gentile Believers what of the ten commandments? Do they not apply to Gentile Believers?

      3) I find it hard to believe that YHWH would give us the Torah through Moshe only to take it away through Shaul just to give it to us all over again in the thousand year reign of Yeshua.

      Yeshayahu(Isaiah)66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Shabbat to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith YHWH.

      Notice during the thousand year reign how everyone will be keeping Shabbat and New Moon both Jew and Gentile.

      Yeshayahu66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine’s flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith YHWH.

      Here we see that those that eat swines flesh will be punished.

      Zacharyahu(Zechariah)16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
      17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, YHWH of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
      18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the Lord will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
      19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
      20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, Holiness Unto YHWH; and the pots in YHWH’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
      21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto YHWH of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of YHWH of hosts.

      Here we have YHWH punishing any Gentiles who do not keep the feast of Tabernacles in the thousand year reign. And it also mentions sacrifices. So if Shaul really taught that Gentiles or believers or anyone does not have to keep Torah he disagreed with the Prophets and even YHWH Himself. I don’t think there is anyway that Shaul would disagree with YHWH or any of His prophets. So I have only two choices.

      1) Shaul was just painfully ignorant of the Hebrew Scriptures.
      or
      2) He did not teach what most of Christianity says he did, regarding Torah.

      I’m firmly in the second camp. In part of your comment you say that the two greatest commandments are all that you think is required for righteous living. Apparently the Jerusalem council disagrees with you. Why else would they add four more commands? Read Acts 15 again. The first thing you will notice is that there were people teaching that the Gentiles had to be circumcised and keep the Torah of Moshe to be SAVED. Shaul and Barnaba strongly disagreed with this teaching. As do I! So it was decided that They would go to the Apostles and Elders in Yerushalaim for a ruling on the issue. There Kepha makes the argument that the only way both Jewish and Gentile hearts can be purified is through faith. And that the only way to be saved is through the grace of the Master Yeshua HaMashiach! Then Yaakov confirmed that Shimon Kepha was correct. He then decided that the Gentiles coming to faith should keep these four commands. But the verse that people tend to skip is verse twenty one. “For Moshe of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every Shabbat day.” Why would Yaakov say that? He was making the point that the Gentiles coming to faith and that are keeping these four commands will not stop there but will continue to grow and even go to synagogue on Shabbat and learn the rest of the Torah. The issue was never about if Gentile Believers should keep Torah or not. The issue was do they need to keep the Torah to be saved. The answer to that question is, absolutely not! In summary, it is a fine line between teaching not to keep Torah period. And teaching not to keep Torah for Salvation. It is my belief that Shaul taught the latter, not the former.

      Shalom

    62. Earl Click
      March 19th, 2013 @ 10:22 am

      You said:
      1.”And finally we see that Kepha warns us how these ignorant people, are twisting Shaul’s writings. He simply calls them lawless. Here we have Kepha himself telling us not to listen to people that teach that Shaul taught not to keep the Torah! ”
      It is a common ploy in debate for people to take Paul’s words as seen here in Peter and use them as if all who disagree with their particular view are guilty of that very thing Peter warns against. The implication that in your eyes the one with the opposing view is ignorant by reason of disagreement as in having a counter argument is unavoidable. Do you really know what specific writings of Paul are being considered when Peter wrote this?
      The Word says if you walk in love you fulfill the Law. I still cannot figure out how all the Torah teachers can find justification for discarding this Law and keeping that one picking and choosing as they see fit. Working hard to please God they make out their own pet schedule of do’s and don’ts and always with the knowledge that some of them are impossible to keep. Do you really believe that is what Paul taught the gentile nations? That same confusing impossible to keep group of six hundred plus laws that all the apostles knew as being a terrible yoke to bear? What have the rabbinical rabbis achieved now, 9000 more additions to it is one number I heard, as they try and ever more become perfect through rules and regulations. The Law is a single entity. To break even one commandment is breaking them all. It is a useless gesture to try and keep the Law. Indeed it is foolishness. As Paul stated clearly for us in Galatians chapter 3. Indeed he even went so far as to call it a form of bewitching.
      Here is the reward for altering God’s word for the Law keepers.
      ““But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the LORD your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:” (Deuteronomy 28:15, NKJV)
      Observe CAREFULLY ALL or cursed forever.

      Also I made mention of the Acts 15 commands right from the get go.
      I suppose in your scriptural view I am nothing but a heathen but Jesus accepts me. Acts 15 and love is what Holy Spirit said I am to do and in doing this He has stated I am doing well. You go and tell Him you disagree, but as for me, well I am just going to keep sharing the Gospel that Paul preached.
      It is finished. The Law was sent as a TUTOR to lead men to Christ.
      Paul said his gospel was not something that arose from the teaching he received from men such as Gamaliel “For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (Galatians 1:12, NKJV)

      This is a clear statement that what he taught was different than what was taught prior to this encounter and is the basis for Paul calling his Gospel…his Gospel! It is why he submitted it to the council of Jerusalem, he was concerned that perhaps he was running in vain. They approved as did Holy Spirit and gave him the right hand of fellowship. The question of circumcision was taken to Jerusalem but they responded to more than that. They took the root of its problem, Law observance, and exposed it to fresh air. The whole Law was then summed up in 4 commands for the gentiles. THAT is all I am required to keep.

    63. Bo
      March 20th, 2013 @ 8:36 am

      Earl,

      So you can murder but you must not eat things that are strangled? Really? Only those 4 things? What about the woman’s head covering in 1 Corinthians 10? What about not muzzling the ox in 1 Corinthians 9? What about Women keeping silence in 1 Corinthians 14? What about keeping the feast of unleavened bread in 1 Corinthians 5? What about the man not touching a woman in 1 Corinthians 7?

      Now that is just what I remembered out 1 Corinthians in the time it took me to write it. So are there just 4 things plus 5 more in 1 Corinthians? What about the other epistles? And what about the writings of John?

      1Jo 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
      4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

      1 John 3
      4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      Re 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      What if you are not a gentile any more and you have been grafted into Israel?

      Nu 15:16 One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

      Isa 56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
      6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
      7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

      Ephesians 2
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
      11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
      12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world…
      19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

      Those good works that we were created for are found where? In What Paul and Y’shua called holy scripture…the law and the prophets. Those scriptures make us wise unto salvation. They tell us how to live righteously and keep us believing the right doctrine.

      2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      I could go on, but I am strapped for time.

      Shalom

    64. Bill Follupa
      March 20th, 2013 @ 9:06 am

      Any man who seeks God and Christ as their enjoyment/reward in this life [the "end" he seeks to arrive to] can “do” ["means"] no wrong; instead, that man’s every “motion” ["means"] is “justifiable” and designated “lawful” (“…against which there is no Law”).

      “The end justifies the means.”

      ;)

    65. Earl Click
      March 20th, 2013 @ 9:52 am

      You people sure like twisting around what I say even taking it out of context willfully is my perception. I understand why though, your scared.

      Is murder walking in love? Of course not. It violates the 2nd commandment of loving your neighbor as yourself.
      I’m done here.
      REALLY.

    66. Bill Follupa
      March 20th, 2013 @ 11:51 am

      Earl Click,
      I didn’t mean to twist your words. I agree with you.

    67. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 20th, 2013 @ 12:52 pm

      Hey folks, please stay on topic here, OK? This is NOT yet another thread to debate the applicability of the Torah to believers today, even though it relates mildly to our topic. That comes up enough in other threads and it will NOT be the dominant theme here. Thanks!

    68. Bill Follupa
      March 20th, 2013 @ 1:06 pm

      Amen.

    69. Barrett
      March 20th, 2013 @ 1:27 pm

      Everyone,

      This thread is about the dangers of sin. All I’m trying to say is that sin is transgressing the Torah. 1John3:4. So I beg you brothers go and sin no more.

      Shalom

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