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  • The Israel Debate

    November 29, 2012 | 103 Comments

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    Dr. Brown debates Steve Wohlberg on the meaning of Israel in the New Testament. Does it refer to the physical descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, or does it refer to a spiritual entity only? Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

     

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: God is utterly trustworthy and He who promised to scatter Israel to the nations is the same God who has re-gathered Israel from the nations and who will bring Jewish people to repentance and faith in Jesus the Messiah.

     

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus will not return until a Jewish Jerusalem welcomes Him back.  God will keep His people, God will restore Jerusalem, and God will restore Israel!

     

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    The Old Testament in the New

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    Divine Appearances in the Old Testament; The New Testament and the Jewish People

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    Comments

    103 Responses to “The Israel Debate”

    1. Menashe
      November 29th, 2012 @ 9:36 am

      Come on Dr Brown you should no better than than to debate Steve Wholberg.

    2. James Dorsey
      November 29th, 2012 @ 10:51 am

      I hope I have a chance to hear this one. I have a busy day today. This is a subject I have been dealing with as of late. Any help would be appreciated. This should be another good one. Blessings

    3. Mark Phillips
      November 29th, 2012 @ 11:22 am

      James,get yourself tse two :

      http://www.amazon.com/Our-Hands-Are-Stained-Blood/dp/1560430680/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      (Michael,for some reason,paperback of your book is cheaper than Kindle ; can u check that out ?)

      http://www.amazon.com/Defending-Christian-Zionism-ebook/dp/B0052AUCY2/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      Some say the promise was to Abraham and his Seed ; it sure was. Thing is,that was in regard to the Abrahamic Covenant,not the Messianic !

      The Messianic (New,Better,Second) Covenant is with the same people (plural !) God made the Old, First,one : the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.

      James,when it comes to Israelology,those two will give your mental muscles an industrial-strength workout.

    4. Ray
      November 29th, 2012 @ 2:27 pm

      No doubt this will be the most enlighten interview of the Kingdom of God. Sad to say that this interview is being done by an American Christianity understanding and propaganda. This is the reason why America is being judged…In reference to this interview, the fact that you have to pay on the internet, to listen LIVE, tell us a lot, of the position of the producer. I’m sorry Brother Brown, you need to see the REAL HOLY Spirit of JESUS. And if the present Israel is the Israel you are talking and defending, which is Anti-Christ to JESUS. This is why Christianity will never fulfill the great commission. God’s Kingdom is not about your advances or Israel or even mine. It’s all about JESUS. But as long as there are people to listen to the world sensations on the radio, people will continue to be lost and swayed by Theologians and every other doctrine invented by man. This will continue. REPENT and turn from your ways, for the Kingdom of God is at hand.

    5. Dave
      November 29th, 2012 @ 3:13 pm

      Mark,

      Is not the “Abrahamic Covenant” the prophesied messianic covenant of faith? Didn’t Jesus say to his law abiding people your father is the devil…in other words HE was the “Seed”, the firstborn of the new creation which all who believe in him are adopted into? Clearly there is no salvation outside of Jesus. Clearly God has a plan for ALL nations, that Christ would be “all in all” and of course Israel is special to God, as all people are, but a lot of “Christian Zionism”(especially political/military perspectives) doesn’t set too well with me. While the bible I believe is clear he will end up this age with Israel as a large part of the equation, especially as described in Revelation, Paul is quite clear on the new creation, being no greek or jew…having nothing to do with nationality or race.

      First the natural than the spiritual. This doesn’t throw out God’s special purpose for Israel as a nation, but it also doesn’t elevate them above any other nation. Before the fall there was no Jewish people. God shows no favoritism, he is not a racist.

      I understand and am deeply offended by how the Jewish people have been treated but to think God is going to deal with them in any other manner than the way he deals with all men, through the blood of Christ, is wrong. I believe we should pray for them and their salvation. I don’t believe we are to blindly stand behind them concerning their political and military policies claiming we will be blessed. WE, as believers in Messiah, are a “royal and holy priesthood”. Even Peter, one of the apostles rebuked by Paul for their natural-mindedness concerning Christ and faith realized this reality.

      WIll not be able to listen to show til later….

      For clarity, I am not a full on replacement theology guy. But truth be told, if Paul was preaching today he would be accused of being one!

      Mark, if you respond, I respectfully ask that you don’t refer me to a third party book or article. Pull out the scriptures and go from there.

    6. Dave
      November 29th, 2012 @ 3:27 pm

      Ray,

      I think you may have some valid points and would like to hear them. Although I am not interested in telling anyone to repent as I’m still searching out truth and knowing truth is more important to me than correcting someone.

      Could you elaborate scripturally some of your points? Specifically the anti-christ point you brought up. I believe we can clearly see the spirit of anti-christ in the Jewish people of Jesus’ day…Paul also said this spirit was at work in his day….

      It seems to me what many have been dubbing the “religious spirit” is simply this anti-christ spirit. Setting itself up in God’s temple(people)….that if possible even the elect could be deceived.

      One thing I really am agreement with you on is it all being about Jesus. It was always about him, he wasn’t just an afterthought once God “realized” the law couldn’t save us…he was the lamb slain “BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD!”

    7. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 29th, 2012 @ 5:10 pm

      Menashe,

      I don’t follow your post. Why do you say that? Steve has written much on this issue and can certainly articulate his point.

    8. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 29th, 2012 @ 5:11 pm

      Dave,

      Actually, the truth is quite the opposite of what you write re: Paul. It looks like you are offended at what he explicitly wrote in Rom 11:25-29! That’s why he gave such strong warnings to Gentile believers re: God’s unbreakable promises to Israel.

    9. Dave
      November 29th, 2012 @ 5:50 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Thanks for responding. But I can say with sincerity of heart I’m am not offended at what Paul wrote. I am not sure what I wrote to get that response from you. Would it not make more sense that since Paul spent much more time establishing the reality of what Israel’s prophets and law pointed to, Jesus, that this one small portion scripture would more accurately be assessed?…if not by the reality of sheer amount of his writings alone given to each subject? Does it not bear weight that Paul only wrote this in one of his letters and with such few words?

      While I understand internet communication can easily be misconstrued is it fair to say I am offended by God’s restoration of Israel by anything I wrote? I’m am not offended that you came to a conclusion as to where my heart is at concerning Israel nor at what Paul said but this only seems(and I emphasize seems) to strengthen my case at the knee-jerk reaction concerning Israel that is out there in many movements today. I can assure you I am diligently seeking the Lord on the matter and have literally, in prayer, invited him to offend me if necessary so I may know Him and his truth better…this goes with all biblical subjects, not just Israel.

      That said, I love Israel and am very grateful for them in the sense of feeling a sense of honor and respect towards them but is it not true that God’s intent was always the new creation man? With the old, natural, Adamic ways put behind us? The reality that is Christ in us, all things new? Where race and nationality no longer divide and separate us?

      What about God’s judgment? I know you believe(and I would agree) that God’s judgment is still a reality. What if God was chastening Israel for their continued refusal to not accept His son by the way he has regularly disciplined them, with war and capitivity? Would we be righteous in aligning with them politically and militarily? If it was God’s redemptive discipline?

      These are sincere questions I have. I’m not looking for a doctrine to agree with whether it be “replacement theology” or “Christian Zionism”. I’m looking for truth…which is obviously a life long quest.

      Thanks again for responding.

    10. Ray
      November 29th, 2012 @ 6:02 pm

      Dave:
      As for the Truth, that you are searching, can only be found in JESUS. I too was Jewish and blinded by searching truth thru my understanding or interpretation of others(Schools). True repentance must come first, so that Jesus open your heart & eyes and shows you HIS Truth. You must die at Calvary yourself.

      Please, know this, I will not support endorse or even consider picking up a stone against any religion, race or people, for I myself I’m a sinner. But I do know this, he can raise anyone from the dead. Physically & Spiritually).

      Jesus Rescued me and he is something personal and goes in contrary against man understanding of scriptures. There is a lot more than what we can see and read. God’s chosen people, was always based in faith, TRUST..

      He always keep a rem anent.FAITH, TRUST and complete submission to the HOLY SPIRIT is and always has been a requirement to be a true son of God.

      Jesus did it and He did not have a place to live or even a purse to count his money. A true Israelite who walked among us as our Teacher and example. (A regeneration, re-creation-Cor 5:17)

      Due to our stubbornness, we keep molding God to our desires, instead of letting him molds us. Definite, America has molded their own god by slapping a Christian label..on all that we do. But make no mistake, Our King is HOLY, as we are to be holy.(not when he comes, NOW, that’s the race)

      That means you live a different way from the rest of the world. And I don’t mean what we see today in the circles.

      He gave us a law to obey. And it’s not to murder or even go out and by guns for self defense.

      Know that The road is narrow, and few will find it. That’s terrifying !! He is not speaking of those that confess him or the rest are going to Hell… No
      What he is saying that those among him who claim to be saved….are not saved.

      The Anti-Christ spirit is not only in our Jewish people but also in Christianity.

      What has it cost you? And based on my eyes, mainstream Christianity has cost only to market items in the name of Christ. Sadly, once again this is American Christianity.

      The normal evangelical in America, is just about wrong on everything. (Refer to the sermon on the mount.) We must walk in a path that it is so narrow, that your shoulders have to turn sideways and your back..is against the wall. As high as you can see that’s narrow. That’s True Christianity. Let me ask you this. How much of your life or anyone is defined by the word of God? Think about it…. Blessings.

    11. Eric
      November 29th, 2012 @ 7:48 pm

      What an absolutely amazing debate. I found it powerful and extremely interesting.

      I would love to hear a part 2! I felt like this was in the same spirit of the debate Dr. Brown had with Dr. James White on Calvinism, which shed light without demonizing.

      Ultimately I agree with Dr. Brown’s position here, but Steve did a good job trying to demonstrate his view here. Great interaction, very beneficial and fruitful.

      God bless.

    12. Bill
      November 29th, 2012 @ 9:15 pm

      Excellent debate. Very fair and balanced. You and Steve need to spend some time on the air again.

    13. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 29th, 2012 @ 9:17 pm

      Dave,

      Thanks for your response too, and thanks for understanding my ability to interact online is limited. May I strongly encourage you to carefully work through the contents of my book Our Hands Are Stained with Blood? Also, I take strong exception to your assessment of the importance Paul placed on the issue of Israel. First, what we call the Old Testament was his one and only Bible; second, the fact that he took three entire chapters (as we have them divided today) in his most important doctrinal letter to focus on Israel in order to be sure that the believers in Rome understood the importance of this topic is of massive import.

      In any case, I appreciate your heart for God and His truth and I do encourage you to take the time to read through Our Hands Are Stained with Blood.

      Grace to you!

    14. Eliyahu Moshiach
      November 29th, 2012 @ 10:58 pm

      Coming from a perspective of the Jewish world in the Jerusalem schools of the concept of “all Israel will be saved” goes back to the earliest most ancient Jewish writings. Pirkei Avot comes to mind but it is all throught the ancient writings including the New Testament letters from Paul. This makes sense since Paul studied under Gamliel the son of Hillel. Even in Pirkei Avot in the Mishnah it clarifies that certain wicked people among the Jewish race would not be saved such as Jezebel etc. To enter into the mind of Paul, I would say that he said this, “all Israel will be saved” in the same meaning his teacher Gamliel said it and how it is said in Pirkei Avot. Is not hermeneutics also identifying how a phrase was used by that generation? Understand Paul as meant to be understood as if he were here now explaining to our generation what he was trying to say in and to his generation. The Spirit of truth is with Dr Brown that is why he does not have to try very hard to win every biblical discussion. His opponent has to claim no unconditional promises from God to allow room for his biblical theory, and failed to address most of the questions by simply moving on to another verse. The truth is easy to defend, its the untrue truth that takes so much work that you have to negate the promises of God to the point that no promise is unconditional!

    15. Mark Phillips
      November 30th, 2012 @ 2:12 am

      Dave,nice to hear you say that you want Scripture not external stuff ; that said,bear in mind that as we keyboard in every sentence,we are writing fallible external stuff ourselves (which we want others to hear !).

      Have not done in yet,in fact,only really found this brewing in my artesian well (so to speak ) yesterday ; that is,I think evangelicals have done some serious miscabling work : they have plugged the Messianic Covenant into a double socket with the Abrahamic one ; thing is,the Abrahamic one Paul discusses in Galatians is to his Seed ; but,the New,Second,Better (Messianic one discussed in Hebrews is to the physical house of Israel and the house of Judah (i.e. in modern terminology,to the Jewish people).

      And that is only two of the five covenants. The Augustine-Luther-Calvin doctrinal chain of teaching have basically taken the Abrahamic and Messianic cable,and plugged it into a whole new socket of distorted Augustinian predestination.

      Anyway,this miscabling stuff is a huge doctrinal MESS ; I may do some finger-dancing on the keyboard in a fuller piece very soon,even if only for myself.

      Thankyou for taking time to reply. Some of what you wrote may come from not having read those two books. I found it agreeable mostly,on first reading it ; surprised Michael felt so strong I have to say if being frank.

      Dave,I am sure you would not claim to be the only one on earth worth listening to outside of Holy Scripture ; so do don a napkin and listen to these talkssometime ; (Michael,take note,do not listen to the Romans talk without a napkin on ; the salivating prospect of getting this man on lineoffire radio might mess up your shirt a bit!)

      A tremendous edification banquet on the five covenants (and cables) ; I slightly lean more to Michael’s take on the Messianic ; that said,I know no fallible man closer to plumb truth than Pawson :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-five-covenants-of-god-2009

      Ones below can be watched online,or downloaded or freely MP3 and heard in car,while walking the dog,on a plane etc.

      On Hebrews (Messianic covenant cable)

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/129?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%

      2Fhttp://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/128?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

      Galatians (two cables discussed ; Messianic and Abrahamic )

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/131?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/130?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Funlocking-the-bible%2Funlocking-the-new-testament%2F

      Romans (Messianic cable)

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/107?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/106?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

      )Eliyahu,you will find these talks to be superb.)

    16. Mark Phillips
      November 30th, 2012 @ 2:17 am
    17. Preston
      November 30th, 2012 @ 2:35 am

      Love you Dr. Brown. I do think you use strong words, rightfully so with your passion, to try and discredit some amazing points that Steve presents. Many of his interpretations often make the most sense through the use of Scriptures compared to yours. But I love learning and continue to enjoy the honor that is being shown among believers who disagree on certain issues. I also love your heart for Israel and the Jews. Thank you for hosting these type of posts and I enjoyed hearing you in person a few years ago and had a great encounter with God at the end of your talk. Thanks!

    18. Dave
      November 30th, 2012 @ 4:02 am

      Mark,

      I didn’t mean not to post external links for the concern of fallibility because of course we, and our interpretations all are to some extent. I more meant that I am interested in hearing a response from YOU, based on what you believe scripture to be teaching instead of a few headlines leading into an external link…make sense?

      I have never before heard what you mentioned about Hebrews being another covenant to the natural Jew. I must say it seems far fetched at first thought but I would appreciate a short overview by you to hit the main concepts. I would agree we are in a “doctrinal mess” here in the west concerning some things, but I would stop short of saying top priority is to straighten the mess out.

      Certainly the greatest crisis we have is one of the heart, in lacking humility and sincerity. If we only turn to the Lord without any “plan b” and say “here I am, reveal yourself in me, complete your working of the cross in my life and shake me til only that which is of you remains…” well, I dare say that is the only foundation upon which any doctrinal truth can be built on…one that has truly allowed the “cornerstone”, the Truth Himself, to be rightly laid in our hearts. Without that substance and reality it really doesn’t matter how many doctrines we mentally assent to accurately.

    19. Dave
      November 30th, 2012 @ 4:17 am

      Dr. Brown,

      Absolutely understand your time constraints. Just wanted to quick say I was finally able to listen to today’s show and in all honesty I agree with just about everything you said…

      Your explanation of “all of Israel will be saved” and how that unfolds in the end was very helpful. I still stand by my concerns of there being an unhealthy infatuation(not directed towards you) with an Israel that can “do no wrong” politically and militarily. I think this approach is shallow and is what fuels a lot of what Steven was saying…I also don’t think his understanding of Galatians 3 negates the reality of Israel’s endtime repentance as you laid out.

      My bottom line is I believe there is so much more for us to learn concerning God’s unfolding plan for BOTH Jew and gentile. I am much less interested in doctrinal perfection than I am the reality of the fulness of the Lord himself in our midst revealing himself and His heart for ALL people.

    20. JON
      November 30th, 2012 @ 4:23 am

      This was an excellent program, i had to listen to both hours twice!

    21. Dave
      November 30th, 2012 @ 4:30 am

      Ray,

      I want to respect the thread and not get too far off topic but quickly…

      I generally agree with your assessment, especially of Jesus being the ONLY foundation, truth, etc.

      My concern, however, is you seem to only be expressing the one side. The sermon on the mount was given to expose the hearts and motivations of those who were trusting in their outward adherence to God’s law for salvation and right standing with God…hence “unless your righteousness exceeds that of the Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom…”

      But don’t forget his yoke is easy and his burden is light! Don’t forget that he while yes he crushes us and any goodness we hold to that he has provided a way, by faith in him, and that we are now able, by the spirit, to reckon this old, Adamic, at emnity with God, rebellious, hardened, self-pity filled, self-righteous, bitter, resentful, lustful, coveting man DEAD and buried with Christ so we now can rise by the same resurrection power that raised christ to newness of life…the new creation man!

    22. Mark Phillips
      November 30th, 2012 @ 5:21 am

      Dave,I agree that intellectually sorting out Covenants and aspects is not the main thing (that said,see below) ; indeed,there are Chinese disciples who have never even read a Bible,who have a much DEEPER understanding of Messiah Jesus than some Westere diciples ; in the West we have diplomas,over there they have brand marks on their bodies.

      I will probably write a ‘miscabling’ piece soon,perhaps very soon,even if just for myself.

      Here is a quick reference to two sentences,speaking of two related but distinct Covenants:

      Galatians 3:15-18 ABRAHAMIC Covenant,the PROMISE (vs Mosaic LAW) to Abraham and his Seed (Messiah Jesus).

      Hebrews 8 : 8 MESSIANIC Covenant ; a New,Better,SECOND Covenant with the very people He made the Old,FIRST (Law) one – with (Israel,the Jewish people,the physical descendents of Jacob).

      (Perhaps like a small child being led across a busy road by a schoolteacher to the arms of their mom,the Law was meant to lead Israel to Messiah ; Galatians 3:23-26)

      Having said intellectual discussions are NOT important,never forget that intellectual errors can have VERY VERY serious applications in daily life.

      In Michael’s ‘Our Hands…’ book,Michael spends the first 100 pages or so,detailing the replusive fruit of having an unscriptural understanding of Israel ; he spends the final 50 pages or so,dismantling the acrobatic Romans 9-11 ‘Reformed’ misteaching.

      For the price of a few bagels and a cup or two of coffee,you could buy yourself one of the most important books a Western disciple could possible read outside the Holy Scripture Faculty writers (i.e. the Bible !).

    23. Mark Phillips
      November 30th, 2012 @ 9:13 am

      Dave,just as Michael wrote ‘The Real Kosher Jesus’ in response to what Schmuley had written,likewise,Pawson wrote ‘Defending Christian Zionism’ in response to what Stephen Sizer had written.

      After David’s book came out,David and Stephen had a calm,respectful debate (around 15 to 20 minutes in duration,if memory serves). In the debate,Stephen latches on to the ‘Seed’ statement of Paul’s,in Galatians.

      If you go to David’s wikipage (link here),scroll down to the section on ‘Teachings’ (where brief discussions of his various books are given) ; in the penultimate teaching piece (i.e the brief piece on ‘Defending Christian Zionism’),pon that book of his),you will find a link. Click the link and here the debate.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Pawson

      Anway,this is not a ‘miscabling’ piece,this is a piece of mine I have rehashed ; and this is what I believe myself :

      When God put the ABRAHAMIC Covenant in place,he effectively divided mankind into TWO groups (perhaps one might say that that division physically began with Abraham,and then got finalized – through Isaac – in Jacob) : one group repeatedly refered to in First Covenant Scripture as the people/nation (and now known as ‘Jews’) ; one group repeatedly refered to as the peoples/nations – comprising all other people groups (and now collectively known as ‘Gentiles’). This distinction still holds true – note for instance,Romans 15:8-12.

      Note also,that just as during the First (MOSAIC) Covenant period of history,a person who was not a physical descendent of Jacob/Israel could come under the MOSAIC Covenant if they so desired (Exodus 12:48-49,Ezra 6:21) – so too,in this Second (MESSIANIC) Covenant period of history,wild olive branches who are hitherto STRANGERS to the COVENANTS (and,via faith in Messiah Jesus) are able to be grafted in among the natural olive branches,and thereby come under the MESSIANIC Covenant.

      In Galatians,Paul said ‘There is neither Jew nor Greek’ in MESSIAH Jesus – Galatians 3:28 ; but he did not say ‘in the WORLD’. Yes (and as Stephen Sizer would correctly point out),Paul did indeed say (in reference to the ABRAHAMIC Covenant and PROMISE ,’and to his Seed’ SINGULAR ; and there meaning Messiah,not Israel – Galatians 3:15-18 ; but one must be careful not to take what Paul says about the (singular) Seed recipient of the ABRAHAMIC (PROMISE) Covenant,and then wrongly also apply it to the (plural) people/nation recipients (i.e. physical descendents of Jacob/Israel) of the MESSIANIC Covenant.

      The writer of Hebrews clearly tells us (refering back to Jeremiah 31) that God has made a new COVENANT with the house of Israel and the house of Judah (Hebrews 8:8) – refering not to the Seed (not to one Person alone ; not to the Messiah),and NOT to the ABRAHAMIC Covenant ; but rather,refering to Israel (the Jewish people,Paul’s ‘kinsmen according to the flesh’) and to the MESSIANIC (MOSAIC-replacing) Covenant. (Messiah Jesus – the Seed – has not made a new covenant with Himself – the Seed ; no, He has made it with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.)

      When studying any aspect of Holy Scripture,it is vital to consider BOTH sides of the Bible coin ; if one statement is emphasized over another,you do not end up with an accurate understanding – you can end up in a wineskin. Furthermore,when studying Israel (i.e. God’s plans for the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel) it is vital not to confuse what Paul says about the ABRAHAMIC Covenant,with what Jeremiah and the writer of ‘Hebrews’ says about the MOSAIC-replacing,Better,Second,NEW,MESSIANIC Covenant.

      (Michael,if you feel I have got something wrong here,PLEASE TELL ME where you differ.)

    24. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2012 @ 10:03 am

      Dave,

      Thanks for your post, and I agree with your comments as well!

    25. Fred
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:47 am

      The debate was good, but I am curious as to your take on Steve being a 7th Day Adventist. You recognized him as a “brother” in the Lord, but SDA is a cult centered around the teachings of Ellen G. White.

      Fred

    26. Dave
      November 30th, 2012 @ 2:04 pm

      Mark,

      Thanks for the outline. Again, this is new to me so I’m very interested and will check it out when I get a little more time, hopefully in the next day or so.

      My general approach to understanding the Lord’s ways in these matters starts before Abraham, however. I am not negating what you said about Hebrews by saying that, but rather laying a foundation so you can see where I’m coming from and we can go from there.

      The foundation of my perspective starts in the garden. It would seem that to make sense of where we are today we need to go to the beginning and see where things went wrong. This may seem to go off topic for a minute but it is all related. The bible isn’t simply a book of many doctrines but rather a arrow pointing to Christ! I don’t mean this doctrinally as much as I mean it becoming our REALITY.

      The temptation of adam and eve was to eat of the tree of KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. His temptation was basically that by knowing good and evil they could become like God. This, while a deception, was actually “true” in a sense. If you note God’s response in the story was they “have become like us, knowing good and evil”. He then declared they must be refused access to the “tree of life”. Next in line in my understanding is Cain and Abel(I believe the man who was debating Dr. Brown in this episode mentioned this).

      Part of God’s curse was that man was now to toil to produce fruit of the ground, by the sweat of their brow. We see how Cain brought God his “fruit of the ground”, the place where Satan was cursed to, as an offering to God which was rejected by God. However Abel’s offering was “the first of his flock”, a lamb, typifying Christ, the ONLY acceptable sacrifice to God! If you look at the lineage of Abel this goes down to Enoch who “walked with God and was no more for God took him” and eventually Noah, the only righteous one saved in the flood.

      All of this is to say that I believe we can see 2 VERY IMPORTANT “lineages”, if you will, that point to what is an acceptable offering to God. Why is this important? Because the very offense that Jesus himself was to the nation of Israel was God’s only acceptable sacrifice. This has it’s greatest implications on us as individuals, but also forms the covenant of faith with Abraham, to His Seed, as you mentioned and we agree.

      Concerning man in general, the greatest battle within is what sacrifice are we presenting before God? That of the Lamb or that of our own toil? This is of supreme importance if we are to understand scripture, as a whole. This is an INWARD work which only the Lord can do in us as we choose to yield our proud, toil offerings to the Lord and humble ourselves and cry out to the Lord for Him to “reveal Jesus in us, to us and through us”. Not to just to a mental assessment of facts, no matter how true they are.

      Upon this foundation I believe we can more clearly see God’s purpose and involvement with man. Gotta go for now, I’m running late but we can pick this up and tie it all together concerning the topic at hand, natural Israel.

      David says in Psalm 119 that “the SUM of your word is truth”, I therefore believe there is a tying together of many things. We just need to remember WHO they point to, not WHAT they point to, as our foundation. Only from their can we accurately build, the reality of Christ as our “cornerstone”.

    27. Judy Davis
      November 30th, 2012 @ 4:11 pm

      Dr. Brown, I didn’t have time to read all the comments and responses so I may be redundant here, My comment: “If God breaks His promises to natural Israel, how do we know He won’t break His promises to us? ‘God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent”(paraphrased). keep up the good work, Dr. Brown……Judy Davis

    28. Fred
      November 30th, 2012 @ 6:13 pm

      I asked a question earlier about Steve’s identity with the 7th Day Adventists and Dr. Brown calling him a “brother” in the Lord. I’m wondering if that comment will be approved? You don’t have to approve it and I can understand the divisive nature of the question. I don’t intend to be contentious. Maybe just shoot me an email off line.

      Just listening to the debate, it was clear that Steve was promoting a works righteousness gospel with his argument for a “condition” placed on all the covenants. If you search his websites, the SDA works rigtheousness becomes clear. He also denies the immortality of the soul and affirms annihilationism.

      I love Dr. Brown’s stuff on Israel and he is one of my favorite radio teachers who I go turned on to by James White. Again, I just want to know his thoughts on this guy being a SDA.

    29. Bill
      November 30th, 2012 @ 9:04 pm

      “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered they children together, even as a hen gatheresth her chickens under he wings, and ye would not! Behold, oiu house is left unto you desolate. Mt. 23:37-38. God has never broken his promises, man breaks his promises. That is the problem with the first covenant. “And the people said unto Joshua, The LORD our God will we serve, and his voice will we obey.” How often our promises fall so short! We can only be saved as God writes his law on our heart. Ultimately, this is what God man (and Israel) needed to recognize from the start. We are only saved individually. Israel was God’s light to the world. God forgave them over and over and ultimately put them on probation, 70 weeks a prophetic 490 years – Daniel 9:24, the same amount Jesus told Peter that he should forgive people when Peter asked “how oft shall I forgive my brother?”. Israel as a nation was judged and found wanting. Romans 11:20, the branches (Israel) were broken off because of their unbelief. Thank the Lord that when they accept Christ they can be grafted in again into the “Israel of God” the church that 1) believes in Jesus the bread of life, 2) keeps the 10 commandments of God, and 3) believes that God can create a new heart. Only with these three, represented by the three items that are in the Ark of God(bowl of Manna, 10 commandments,and Aaron’s rod that budded, can man enter into heaven. May God give people a love for the truth and the spiritual discernment to understand His word.

    30. Nini Ram
      November 30th, 2012 @ 9:58 pm

      Dr. Brown,
      It is apparent that Jesus has found a way to regather the nation of Israel, as a way or with a purpose to guide them into finding Jesus…and certainly reintegrated them to the ” original Olive tree” from which many were cut off because of unbelief(Rom. 11)…But notice the re-grafting is in Christ, by believing in Him…by default this means becoming part of the Israel God by re-grafting these original branches (Jews) then they are grafted back to the Israel of God as joining Christian Church…
      this is not a replacement theology, but a continuation theology…in which the christian church is the true continuation of the OT original church…all rooted in Christ in the OT as a promise and in the NT as a reality…Those jewish branches that did not see Christ as the fulfillment of their promises, rejected Him, in so doing they were cut off from the Israel of God(the original Olive tree)….

      What I must point out is that many of those prophecies were conditional…and if any party does not meet the conditions the promise is not fulfilled..We all know that God kept his part of the covenant…but did the Jewish nation did? No, they did not.

      The above brings me to the point…Israel as a nation was left with no covenant by their own choosing…The Old Covenant ending at the cross with Jesus death, means that they no longer have an active Old Covenant in place (as such the sacrificial system is obsolete), this is so because Jesus ratified the New Covenant as such the old one was not longer needed. Since the Jews did not accept Christ, which means they did not accept the New Covenant…truth be told, as a nation Israel of flesh..was left with no binding covenant…not because God’s doing, but because their own choice. Yet at the individual level, all Jews believers, together with gentile believers are partakers of the new Covenant…

      This brings me to the final point….What does the prophetic message says about ‘time of the end events” which is to determine that fate of the not only the Nation of Israel but of the all world…Simply, that what is coming for us is much war, tribulation and this will usher in the 2nd coming of Christ…as such no Messianic Millennial kingdom here on earth. Therefore, no establishment of the nation of Israel as the center of God’s government here on earth during this earth history as we know it..and also no rebuilding of a third temple in Jerusalem..

      Please think about it…since the sacrificial system is obsolete, and expiation and mediation as finding pardon for man’s sin is solely done by the blood of Christ…then what good will it do a temple in Israel in which animal sacrifices are resumed? No meaning whatsoever…no purpose in it.. This further shows us the banality of rebuilding a third temple in Jerusalem.

      yet there is going to be third temple…but in the prophetic message is told to come from heaven..after the millennium…it is at this time that the land of Israel will have its temple, as such be exalted…

      Rev 21:2-3 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

      Truth be told..Jesus always said that His kingdom was not of this world, and still is not. Christ will establish His kingdom here on earth after the postmillennnial purification of thus eartg…it is at this point that the land of Israel will be the seat of the government of Christ, and Israel through the seed of Abraham, that is Christ, will take posession of that much beloved land…for the Israel of God..the Israel of the promise…

    31. Nini Ram
      November 30th, 2012 @ 10:42 pm

      Now…let me clarify a point…I mentioned the Millennial kingdom as taking place in heaven…
      This is so because, this 7th Millennium of rest (initiated by the 2nd coming of Christ to rapture His saints to heaven and ending by His return from heaven in the Holy City) is declared in the prophecy as being a time of desolation for the earth, which certainly can be found as such using simple mathematics…which is =
      =at the 2nd coming(day of salvation and wrath)=
      1)all the saints go to heaven(for 1000 years)
      2)all the wicked are killed in the day of Wrath..
      =

      O SAINTS HERE + 0 WICKED ALIVE = 0 PERSONS HERE

      (THE ONLY ONE HERE/this.earth DURING THE 7TH MILLENNIUM IS SATAN AND HIS ANGELS AND THEY ARE IN JAIL)…

      Therefore the earth is desolated (o persons) during the 7th Millennium and therefore it rest…as such this earth will keep its sabbaths…just like it did during the Babylonian deportation..+

      Ch 36:21 To fulfil the word of the LORD by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had enjoyed her sabbaths: for as long as she lay desolate she kept sabbath, to fulfil threescore and ten years.

      Which brings me to point..since what it is ahead are wars and tribulation soon to be stopped by the 2nd coming of Christ, followed by the Millennium…then when is the land of israel to become the sit of God’s government..?
      answer= certainly not in this earth as we know it, but after the millennium in the earth made new…

      Why then such a fixation in the land of Israel as we know it now as the sit of an earthly kingdom which according to the prophetic message is not going to take place in this earth as we know it?

      …Let us instead keep our eyes in the Israel that is to be the center of the earth made new..the New Jerusalem…

      Man has its eyes fixated in this world…and just like the Jews did in Jesus times, many were thinking that He was coming to establish the kingdom of Israel in that land and defeat the Romans…this was a figment of their imagination… this has continue despite of us being told over and over gain that Christ kingdom is not of this world (this did applied to the times of Jesus and still does in our times)… Truth be told…Not until the purification of this earth is that Christ is going to establish His everlasting Kingdom here on earth…

      I would advice to my friends Jews and Gentiles alike, to get closer and closer to the Lord because what lies ahead for us according to the prophetic message of Daniel and Revelation (well described in Daniel 11;40-15,12:1-3, and Rev. 13 later part and Rev. 17…is simply much tribulation, until our deliberance by Christ at the second coming…

      So what lies ahead until then…simply tribulation. Let me just point out, the group most persecuted is going to be the believers, Jews and gentile alike, described as those that keep the Law of God and have the faith of Jesus=

      Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      This group will be persecuted by the last King of the North(in Daniel 8 identified as the Antichristian/Apostate church) and the King of the South(Muslim radicals) as per Dan. 11-12. And this has already started and will be evident to you, when you come to understand that Papal Rome(aka. the Antichrist/king.of.the.north) and its allies are bound in destroying the nation of Israel and from there the whole world…as much as the Muslim radicals want to do the same. They are setting up the Hegelian Principle, which is simply lets put the Jews and Arabs to kill each other, so that a third option comes in, Papal Rome…the Crusades of the Time of the End..that is what we are seeing…but Christ will end up all this waring and tribulation…and the Antichrist will be defeated at Armageddon…

      When Israel the nation finally comes to this realization of what it is going one, and where their future lies… they then will see their future clearly, as having no hope but what Christ has to offer in the earth made new…

    32. Ray
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:04 pm

      Your assessment was totally wrong in your interview.
      You are correct that God keeps his promise in old and new. As far as ALL OF ISRAEL WILL BE SAVED. Your conclusions were wrong and you are directing all to the wrong conclusion. Let me explain:

      For some, linking today’s news headlines and Scripture gave everyday life a sense of urgency and significance; yet such flights of fancy have had devastating real-life consequences for the people of the Middle East.

      Just as certain Biblical interpretations defended slavery and Apartheid, Scripture has been used to justify Middle Eastern occupation, oppression, and injustice, in defiance of the concerns of the Hebrew prophets and in policies that are truly anti-Christ.
      Mainstream media and scholarship has only recently caught on to the central role played by such beliefs in influencing American foreign policy, and many are justly concerned at what seems to be a suicidal will-to-Apocalypse.

      Is it possible to read the Bible too literally?

      “You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me.” (John 5:39)

      Important presuppositions when reading the Bible
      We must read the Bible literally,
      We must read the Bible contextually.

      We must see how the New Testament helps to interpret the Old Testament.

      We must take special care when interpreting prophecy and the apocalyptic scriptures.

      We must avoid the temptation to allow contemporary events to determine our interpretation.

      The ultimate question of any passage is this – how does it relate to God’s purposes fully and finally revealed in Jesus?

      Israel and the Church: Who are God’s Chosen People?
      “But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ. For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.” (Ephesians 2:13-16)

      The Israel of God in the Old Testament
      An Inclusive Israel.
      An Inclusive Inheritance.
      An Inclusive Temple.

      The Israel of God in the New Testament, is The Vine and the Vineyard.

      So who are the real ‘Children of God’?

      The promise to Abraham–Gen 12:3, 22:17
      The remnant of Judah—2 Kings 17
      The remnant of exiles–Isa 6:13 10:20 Ezra 9:9-15
      Jesus The seed remnant–Isa 53, Gala 3:16
      The Apostolic remnant–Acts 1:12-14
      The Pentecost Church–John 1:12-13 Acts 2:41, 4:4
      The great multitude–Revel 7:4-10

      Israel: The Church in the Old Testament– The Body of Christ:
      The Church in the New Testament…
      Israel is not being replaced by the Church. The church(Eclessia, Believer of Faith) has always been Israel.

      Righteous live by faithfulness (Hab. 2:4)ot
      Righteous live by faith (Romans 1:17)nt

      Holy people (Deu. 7:6; 33:3; Num. 16:3)
      Holy people (Eph. 1:1; Rom. 1:7)
      Chosen (Deu. 7:6; 14:2)
      Chosen (Col. 3:12; Tit. 1:1)
      Loved (Deu. 4:37)
      Loved (Col. 3:12; 1 The. 1:4)
      Called (Isa. 41:9; 2 Chr. 7:14)
      Called (Rom. 1:6-7; 1 Cor. 1:2)
      Assembly (Psa. 1:5; 89:5; 149:1)
      Assembly (Acts 7:38; 20:28; Heb. 2:12)
      ‘Church’ = Assembly in Greek OT (Mic. 2:5)
      Church (Matthew 16:18; 18:17; Eph 2:20)
      Flock (Eze. 34:2, 7; Psa. 77:20)
      Flock (Luke 12:32; Act. 20:28)
      Holy nation (Exo. 19:6)
      Holy nation (1 Pet. 2:9)
      Treasured possession (Exo 19:5)
      Special possession (1 Pet. 2:9)
      Kingdom of priests (Exo. 19:6)
      Royal priesthood (1 Pet. 2:9)
      Children of God (Hos. 1:10)
      Children of God (Joh. 1:12)
      People of God (Hos. 2:23)
      People of God ( 1 Pet. 2:10)
      People of his inheritance (Deu. 4:20)
      Glorious inheritance (Eph 1:18)
      My dwelling place = tabernacle (Lev. 26:11)
      Dwelling among us = tabernacle (Joh. 1:14)
      I will walk among you (Lev. 26:12; Jer. 32:38)
      I will… walk among them (2 Cor. 6:16-17)
      I will be his father = of David (2 Sam. 7:14)
      I will be a father to you (2 Cor. 6:18)
      God is a husband betrothed ( Jer. 3:14; 31:32
      Christ is a husband betrothed (Eph 5:25-30
      Twelve tribes (Gen. 49:28; Rev. 21:12)
      Twelve Apostles (Mar. 3:14; Rev. 21:14)

      Facts:
      God has only ever had one people..

      Citizenship of Israel was always open to all people who acknowledged God.

      Old Testament analogies for Israel are applied in the New Testament to the Church

      God’s people has always been inclusive and spiritual not exclusive and physical…

      The promises made to Abraham are fulfilled in and through the Church.

      Those who receive Jesus as their Lord and Saviour are:
      Branches in the Vine, Brethren of Jesus= Chosen People. The Remnant, The Children of God, Children of Abraham & Sarah= The Israel of God..

      As for the land?
      The Promised Land – From the Nile to the Euphrates?
      “I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you. The whole land of Canaan, where you are now an alien, I will give as an everlasting possession to you and your descendants after you; and I will be their God.” (Genesis 17:7-8)

      The covenant promises made to the Patriarchs concerning the Land were understood as having been fulfilled in the Old Testament.
      Genesis 17:1-8; Deuteronomy 2: 1-9; Deuteronomy 28:1-10, 15-16, 63-64; Psalm 105:6-11, 37-45; Ephesians 3:4-6; Romans 9; Hebrews 11:10-16.

      The Land, like the earth itself, belongs to God and our people were at best aliens and tenants with temporary residence.

      Residence in the Land was always conditional and inclusive…..

      “Jesus repudiated a narrow nationalistic kingdom”.

      His kingdom is spiritual, heavenly and eternal.

      This is the inheritance of all who trust in Jesus Christ only…..In the Old Testament was the same, The God of Israel(those by faith).

      “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name ofLord.’” (Matthew 23:37-39)

      Many Christian Zionists defend and justify Israel’s annexation of Jerusalem claiming it is the eternal, undivided and exclusive capital of the Jews. But it is not true…..

      Jerusalem became the capital of Israel briefly under David and Solomon before its decline following the disintegration of tribal alliances and their eventual exile.

      The Old Testament vision of Jerusalem enjoying God’s blessing is of an international and inclusive city of “faith”, justice and holiness.

      Jerusalem in the New Testament is associated not with Israel, the Jews or the Temple, but with Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection.

      The end of the ‘times of the Gentiles’ far from being a sign of Jewish national sovereignty more likely points to the return of Jesus.

      The Jerusalem that rejected Jesus and his followers is associated with the immorality of Sodom and oppression of Egypt in the Book of Revelation.

      Christians should look instead to a heavenly Jerusalem as their spiritual home.

      By claiming this Israel and the carnal, you are denying the work of Christ.

      What is written here, may it be written in the Kingdom.. Blessings in HIS Service.

    33. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:09 pm

      Ray,

      Were you speaking to me when you wrote, “By claiming this Israel and the carnal, you are denying the work of Christ”?

    34. Ray
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:18 pm

      We worship God in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

    35. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:30 pm

      Ray,

      You made a very serious, ugly accusation. Will you simply state plainly if you were speaking to me when you wrote it? A simple “yes” or “no” will suffice.

    36. Ray
      November 30th, 2012 @ 11:58 pm

      He who tends the fig tree will eat its fruit, And he who cares for his master will be honored.

    37. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 1st, 2012 @ 12:05 am

      Ray, since we don’t allow personal attacks on this page and since you continue to obfuscate, I am politely requesting that you not post here until you simply answer my question with a “yes” or “no.” I am not angry with you but rather very burdened for you spiritually; that being said, we do have guidelines here for a reason, and we are not playing games when it comes to the things of God.

      Should you continue to post contrary to my request before our moderators review the posts tomorrow, your posts will be pulled at that time.

      My preference is that you continue to dialog here but that will only happen if you first come clean about your accusation. Intended for me or not? Yes or no?

    38. Sandy
      December 1st, 2012 @ 1:01 am

      What comes to mind as I ponder this debate is what the Lord says in Genesis 12:3, “I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.” The Lord is positively committed to the promises he made to Abraham & physical Israel as we see played out in the earth today. His covenant to physical Israel is being watched on the news daily.

    39. Sandy
      December 1st, 2012 @ 1:22 am

      Linking today’s new and headlines is everything right now. There are pending wars prophesied from the old testament the Lord has yet to fulfill to natural Israel. The promises to natural Israel is today’s news.

    40. Preston Hall
      December 1st, 2012 @ 2:41 am

      I wonder why your moderators deleted my post? Must not like people disagreeing with you? Anyways, I am thankful you did a radio show that tried to honor the other person who did disagree with you and please no need to repost my simple post before this one. But I really do thank you for your passion for the Jewish people and Israel.

    41. Doug MacLean
      December 1st, 2012 @ 9:09 am

      The status of modern Israel continues to be an important topic for believers. This is not some academic exercise, but one which has a real world impact. Antisemitism continues to be a consequence of replacement theology. The fact that it may be an unintended consequences does not lessen its harm. Consider that Mr. Wohlberg is a Jewish believer but does not hold that there is anything special about modern Israel. Many may say that if Jewish believer does not care about Israel, than why should I care? The answer of course, is because Scripture says it is important. Sadly, many will not read Scripture.

    42. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 1st, 2012 @ 11:24 am

      Ray’s silence is quite telling, and obviously, if his answer was “no” he would have stated that immediately, which means that he (and perhaps others?) think that it is a denial of the “work of Christ” (!!) to believe that: 1) God can make unconditional promises to any person or people; and 2) that God, by His Spirit, can pour out a spirit of repentance on that people at a certain time and bring them to faith in Jesus. Remarkable!

      It is also telling that, based on post #26, he implies that if you believe, like Paul believed, that God’s promises to Israel remain because of His love for the patriarchs (Rom 11:28-29), then you are not worshiping God in the Spirit but in the flesh.

      This is so revealing and underscores a lack of spiritual insight and a lack of appreciation for the work of Christ, not a denial thereof, hence my concern for Ray rather than any need for me to defend why I hold to the Scriptures.

    43. Judy Davis
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 3:22 am

      When the church cut itself off from it’s Jewish roots(just as Paul warned it not to do in his letter to the Romans),it gave rise to multiple church denominations, and biblical aberrancy that subsequently gave rise to anti-semitism and worse. I won’t quote Romans 11 but I strongly believe one cannot read this chapter in context without seeing replacement theology crumble. However, the twisting of truth is very seductive, serious and hard to combat. Dr, Brown, are you familiar with Don Richardson’s book, “Eternity in Their Hearts?” I had to read it for world religion class at Impact University and though it may seem off topic, the points therein suggests an answer or at least shed light to the above debate. Richardson offers a unique perspective on natural Israel. It’s purpose, role and place in God’s Kingdom; without contradicting His covenant promises to natural Israel. I would be interested in your feedback if ever you have the time to read it.

    44. Nini Ram
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 4:58 pm

      People,
      let me just say something, we as Christians, which ever might be our origin, whether Jew or gentile, we no longer should be thinking as one being different from the other, or one having benefits that the other do not have…because in Christ we are one…

      Truth be told, we are in the last days….actual days if you ask me, because what is coming ahead is dreadful and thanks to God short lasting…So why have our eyes fixated in the glory due to us gentiles or to the Nation of Israel? What good are we going to get out of it if anything…

      Let us as christian find our joy and purpose in Christ and what He has to offer to us…The New heavens and an earth made new…but most of us the company of God with Us, He as our savior and redeemer…Redeemer of all of us…that is all what matter.

      There is a false idea that Christ’s/Messiah’s kingdom is of this world to be establish in this earthly Jerusalem… But is it that what the New Testament is teaching…? How does the New Testament presents the fulfillment of the Old Testament promises….and for whom?

      Truth be told even in the OT Israel, only the people of faith remained attached to the true vine, as part of the Israel of faith, because that lacking at Yom Kipur they were removed of the family of God, His Israel of faith…and this same vine is the one of the NT (certainly with some original Jewish branches cut-off and some wild gentile branches grafted)…

      So the biblical principle presented concerning the Israel of faith, the Israel of God…the Israel of the promise is the same in the OT as in the NT…
      The replacement theology is wrong…
      the continuation theology is the truth…

      That said, given the fact that our concerns should be spiritual…could we then instead start looking to this earth with the same spiritual glasses that Jesus had…in which He boldly told us that His kingdom was not of this earth…It was and it will always be an spiritual kingdom which will find its physical realities solely in the heavens and earth made new….and although Abraham was looking for the earthly promise land…He did know that the ultimate gift was a better country a heavenly one…an earth made new…

      Heb 11:13-15 “These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”

      The promises for Israel will be fulfilled for Israel, the same Israel we all know of the Old Testament, which in the New Testament had added gentiles to be part of it….the Israel of Faith… the Israel of the promise…

      The Messiah of the Jews, has through them brought that message to us gentiles.

      I see in this world a lack of appreciation of the Jews and for what they are and can become once again in Christ, and I see the Jews with a lack of appreciation for the gentiles, for what they have become in Christ..

      And I do see that Christians Jews are in a great predicament, a conflict of identity, since they have to cut many of their attachments to what they are as a nation(given the fact that the nation has failed to accept Christ)…and yet not being quite accepted by the gentiles, which fail to see who they really are in Christ…

      To the gentiles believers I say…people, the Christian Jews are the original branches to whom the promises were given which are grafted back… our Messiah is and always will be a Jew, and our Messiah inherits the throne of David,…keep this in mind …the throne of David, has a God-man that is to rule this world and heaven in general, for eternity….This should not be a source of personal pride…but of humble love toward Jesus that have assured that previdlege for Israel, for all Jews.. the real throne of David as ruling for eternity…

      And we gentiles, have much to be thankful too…because we have become part of the Israel of the promise…The Israel of Faith.. and that thank to God, who has been shared “that citizenship” with us gentiles…what a blessing for them, and also for us… We are also sharing in all these promises and mercies, this should be a source of eternal gratitude towards God, and all these needs to be understood within the context of the “spiritual” concerns of God for His people…

      All of us, gentile believers and Jew Believers, need to be constantly reminded that God’s concern are by definition spiritual issues…that He has something better that what this earth can offer us…

      Yes, all these promises and mercies find their fulfillment in the physical realities of the Earth and heaven Made New…the earth purified…the whole earth needs to be purified before the most pure God-man our redeemer and King takes possession of His kingdom here on earth…

      Knowing that Christ is to descend to the Mount of Olives…do you think that place is prepared for His reception?…I being there…I know what lies in the mount and how a cemetery occupies a great portion of that mount…Truth be told, given the greatness of the God.man King, this earth needs to be purified before He grant us all our desires, as related to a perfect home here on earth with Jesus as our King…with the land of Israel as the site of His throne, and with Jesus our redeemer sitting in the throne of David…(because nobody can change that..it is the throne of David, the one that Jesus inherits, certainly of the whole universe also)..

      The New Testament amplifies the details of how is Jesus going to take possession of this earth…There is told of His soon…very soon 2nd coming as a Day of salvation/rapture of the saints to heaven, yet also as a Day of Wrath as the doom of all those wicked alive(their 1st death), to join all the wicked of all previous ages in the grave…Believe it or not….a simple mathematics tells us that this earth will be left uninhabited during the millennium (the 7th Millennium of Rest) which is all saints in heaven during the millennium and all wicked dead during the millennium…then this earth is desolated during the millennium(except for Satan and his angels in jail). Then after the millennium, the saints return to claim this earth at which point also all the wicked are resurrected to face judgment and execution(2nd death) in the lake of fire and brimstone(their 2nd death), which also purifies this earth, so that soon thereafter is settle for eternity…

      You see…
      the first death= resulted because of Adam’s sin
      the 2nd death= the result of rejecting Christ

      So…stop for a minute..knowing that Christ is at the door, do you really think that there is time for Christ to come and settle this earth…all unpurified?…Come on..this is Christ, the God.man…this is the Creator of heaven and Earth, this is the King of kings…the Lord of the whole Universes…Why do you think that Christ is coming to settle a millennial kingdom in this unpurified earth, all ransacked by the plagues among them a worldwide devastating earthquake that shakes our heavens above as well…People, wake up…God wants and deserves more that what many of us are offering Him, but our insistence in having Christ kingdom in this earht as we know it…Christ deserves and will get more…much more…the whole Universe is His domain, and this earth made new will have its throne…and for the Jews, be proud is going to be in the land of Israel…the Israel made new…

      FINALLY…a point that many denied, yet is the truth…which is that God’s law is binding and it it is the base of His governemnt…which includes the 7th day Sabbath of Rest…so important, that although rejected by most through the ages…the last or 7th millenniul the earth, a millennium of desolation, it will be so that the earth catch up for all those Sabbaths that did not keep, because man rejected that commandment and kept it busy all that time, when it should be resting…
      (just like God used the times of the Babylonian deportation, so that the land of Israel could keep its sabbaths)…for those that reject the 7th day Sabbath, as if it were only for those jews that so desire to do it…Beware, being all part of the Israel of God, grafted or original branches…we all need to keep the 7th day Sabbath Holy…as such keeping God’s law…

      This 7th day Sabbath keeping will become very relevant..when the nations of the earth will want to force in all of us a rejection of the true 7th day Sabbath and demand from us to accept the false Sabbath/Sunday…The law of God, and in particular this commandment will be the point of controversy..which it is solely a sign or mark of to which government we belong, simply by the law we keep…Since salvation is a free gift, that gift includes the power of the Holy Spirit to gives the power to keep God’s law from inside, as written in our hearts…Yet to reject the work of the Spirit by wilfully sinning will result in ous loosing that salvation…beware of this=

      1) we are saved because of a gift from Christ
      2) yet we are lost because our uncovered sins…

      So, a wilful sin will not be covered..which means us loosing our salvation..so says Hebrews=

      Heb 10:26 For if we sin(BRAKE GOD’S LAW) wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice(NO MORE PARDON) for sins,
      Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
      Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses’ law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
      Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and ***hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace****?
      Heb 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
      Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

      God bless,
      brunie

    45. Dan1el
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 6:51 pm

      I believe the only reason Israel has the veil partially hardening/blinding them (in a way unlike any other people) which will only be removed AFTER all the Gentiles come in is because they had been/are exalting themselves as if pre-eminent/first; because of that, God must put them in last place.
      Once the “last place” slot has been secured for them (after all the Gentiles come in), the instrument whereby God caused them to be last will be lifted, and they will be allowed to enter “en masse”.
      Some of the first will be last (Israel was both among the first and will be the last who believe “they enter the Kingdom ahead of you”).

    46. Dan1el
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 6:57 pm

      I.E.: It is not some “sovereign act of grace” — nothing is “forced”; grace is not “irresistible”.
      There is a rhyme and reason to everything — their hardening and blindness is because of their high crime of exalting themselves in an attempt to solicit praise. “How can you believe when you receive praise from one another?”

    47. Dan1el
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 7:12 pm

      Even if “in this way, all Israel shall be saved” refers to “the Israel of God” (why not?), the “completion” is not the influx of the Gentiles, but the Israelites, when their veil is lifted after the Gentiles are done coming in and they are given the last place.

      I do not believe “all the Israelites who are living will be saved”, since the antiMessiah must be Jewish and usher in a false peace (“when they say peace peace sudden destruction comes upon them”) — “first the Jews” will receive him, “then the Gentiles”.

      His image will cause his mark to be received in the forehead or hand, which is vaguely familiar to the “tefillin” (which contained God’s Words/Commandments in them — thus, this mark must contain commandments [mind-spirit control]; convey/transfuse the spirit of the dragon whom those disbelievers in Jesus worship [John 8:44] and will thereby cause the world to worship the dragon whom they worship [Rv 13], even though they think they are serving God: “those who kill you will think they do God a service” [John 16:2]).
      If there is none greater than the Jew, then the final and greatest evil on the face of this earth in this age must be perpetrated by a Jew; if “God in the flesh” was a Jew, then satan in the flesh must be a Jew, proclaiming himself to be God [2 Th 2:4] — this is irrespective of the fact that he also has a god whom he worships: the dragon/satan.

    48. Dan1el
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 10:25 pm

      Even if I do believe these things, perhaps it would’ve been better not to say them as they can be misunderstood.

      lofradio: Can you erase #35?

    49. Ian
      December 2nd, 2012 @ 11:20 pm

      Dr Brown, God can can make unconditional promises to any person or people! The question is, did God make an unconditional promise to Abraham and his descendants regarding the land? From the very beginning, staying in God’s place (land) was dependent on obeying God. Adam and Eve’s remaining in the Garden of Eden was dependent on their obedience. God told Abraham that he (Abraham) and his descendents were to be obedient.

      God told Abraham in Gen. 17:9 “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come.” In Genesis 18 verse 9 God said “For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the Lord by doing what is right ant just, so that the Lord will bring about for Abraham what he has promised.”

      In Deuteronomy chapter 28 God pointed out the blessings that would come on the children of Israel if (and I repeat if) they obeyed (verses 2 to 14). In the next 54 verses God pointed out the curses that would befall them if (again I repeat if) they disobeyed. The blessings or curses were dependent on obedience or disobedience. Of particular note is verses 62 and 63 of Deuteronomy 28 we are told “You who were as numerous as the stars in the sky will be left but few in number, because you did not obey the Lord you God. Just as it pleased the Lord to make you prosper and increase in number, so it will please him to ruin and destroy you. You will be uprooted from the land you are entering to possess.” In Jeremiah 18 God made it clear that He can reverse His announcement. God said in verses 9 and 10 “And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it.

      Is the nation of Israel obeying God today?
      Are the people of Israel today doing what is right in God’s sight?
      If they are not obeying God, what then should they expect from God. Should they be blessed for their rejection of the Messiah?
      The writer to the Hebrews said of Abel, Enoch, Noah and Abraham they admitted that they were foreigners and strangers on earth…Instead, they were longing for a better country, a heavenly one (Heb. 11:13-16).
      Instead of joining with Jews and focusing on an earthly Jerusalem and an earthly temple which were shadows pointing to a future reality, we should be pointing them to Jesus.
      Instead of condoning the treatment given to the Palestinians (some who are our brothers and sisters, believers in Jesus Christ) by the Jews in the name of religion, we should be speaking out for what is right, fair and just.

      We need to put ourselves in the position of the Palestinians, how would we feel if we were being treated the way they are being treated by some other people in the name of their “religion”?

    50. Mark Phillips
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 2:27 am

      This thread is shaping up real nice ; nutrients coming to the fore in this mulit-person tennis match !

      Just to quickly respond to Judy : Judy,I find it ironic myself that ‘Calvinists’ absolutely ADORE Romans ; reason being,Romans 9-11 is Second Covenant Scriptures most emphatic denounciation of BOTH ‘Replacement Theology’,and ‘IF SAVED,Always Saved’ (which is what they actually believe ; POTS) ; and yet,whilst adoring Romans,they seem blinded to both those denounciations.

      Michael,to return to the ‘Abraham and his Seed’ thing,just to say that for me (someone who knows next to zero about Hebrew),and perhaps for many others,Genesis 11 to Genesis 22 does not sound as if only to Abraham’s Seed. But,Paul DID know Hebrew,and he is the unsurpasaed Second Covevant Bible teacher ; therefore,Genesis 11 to 22 has to be studied based on Paul’s God-breathed passage in Galatians 3.

      Michael,as a person who knows Hebrew,could you please write a little piece about this (perhaps on here),drawing attention to the Hebrew words singular and plural,and basically elaborating on Paul’s teaching about ‘Abraham and his Seed?’ It would be nice to have a good piece on this (perhaps thereafter nestling as a free article in askdrbrown.org’s free resources section).

      Dave,thankyou again for taking time on that ; listen,you really would be very nourished indeed if you here Pawson’s talk on the five Covenants ; the talk gives an overview beginning at Eden (see the link in post 14 above).

      Dave,I would say that it needs to be understood that the narrow Way is both SPIRITUAL and BODILY in nature : on the spiritual front,Paul tells us circumcision of the flesh is not enough,the key (for Jew and Gentile) is circumcision of the heart ; on the boily front,the Second Covenant is with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel(a Covenant Gentiles partake of in Messiah Jesus),and secondly (and when it comes to Jews and Gentiles who ARE in Messiah),Paul tells disciples to hand their physical bodies to God as slaves to righteousness (it appears that in Corinth,disciples had actually – or were comtemplating – taking the body Jesus had bought down to the local brothel ! ‘A BODILY tale of two sixes’ one might say see Roman ; Romans 6 and 1 Corinthians 6. I think many young disciples have not been taught the bodily side ; they think it OK to take the body Jesus bought to the local nightclub. Anyway,I’ll cut the body talk there,for the subject of the thread is physical Israel.)

      Dave (and all),do watch the five covenant talk. Michael,if possible,please,a piece on the ‘Abraham and his Seed’ matter (based on Genesis 11-22 and Galatians 3).

    51. Dave
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 4:49 am

      Dan1el…

      I like #35. We’re allowed to “flesh out” things as believers. Whether it’s all correct or not I appreciate how you tied things together and I believe there is substance there, even if all the details don’t end up being perfect. If I’m not mistaken, this is the way Jews studied the bible by going back and forth “fleshing it out”.

    52. Dave
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 5:01 am

      Mark,
      I think you’ll be quite pleased to know I have watched almost all of those videos and am now about to finish up the last 30 or so minutes on the one discussing the Messianic Covenant. I must say I am quite pleased with what I’m seeing. He very much has a way of simplifying things and am gaining a lot from his teachings on these 5 covenants. He really grabbed my attention(in a good way) when he gave the example of Messianic Covenant believers trying to enter into the Mosaic Covenant(which was ONLY intended for the Jewish people…and willing foreigners… pre-Messianic covenant days) by tithing. It was at that point I said “ok, this guy cares more about truth than pleasing man, I’ll listen on”. But I digress :-)

      I was so refreshed to hear him say some of the things he did. While I don’t necessarily see everything the way he does there truly is a lot of meat there.

      BTW, I agree with what you wrote about presenting our bodies as “instruments of righteousness”. My main point was in ensuring a correct foundation is laid in our lives. If Paul felt need to reinforce this foundation many years later to these churches that existed decades in some cases it must have been important.

      Anyway, enough of that, back on to the thread at hand.

    53. Dave
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 5:15 am

      As a general point I think it’s good for all of us to remember that swinging to the opposite extreme is also never healthy.

      In other words, as much damage as “replacement theology” has caused it doesn’t mean we(gentile believers) all need to be carrying philacteries, observing Jewish holidays, adopting external jewish customs, and sabbaths, etc…of course we’re “free” to, but I’m talking about unhealthy soulish infatuation rather than appreciation and gaining spiritual insight of how these things point to Jesus.

      I liken it to the way Calvinism has destroyed many lives but it doesn’t make stringent Armenianism accurate either.

      I believe Steven(the man debating Dr. Brown) had some crucially important truths he was expressing of the inheritance we all really do have in Christ. Many of the things he was saying are often glossed over and not apprehended by believers. I’m not endorsing his endgame, but rather am seeing into some very valid important truths he was highlighting.

    54. Mark Phillips
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 5:18 am

      That’s lovely news Dave.

      I believe America and Britain are epicenters of 2 Timothy 4:3-4 teachers. David Pawson is fallible (along with me,you,MLB and all of us) but he has a ‘passion’ for truth. He identifies with ‘Mr Valiant Fortruth’ in Pilgrim’s Progress,and with Jeremiah in Holy Scripture.

      The reason I am so keen for MLB and David to get together is because in hose two guys you have two people who are yes,fallible,but who have rare insight for the Body ; to get them bonded would be a wonderful benefit to many many people Stateside (I hope anyway).

      By way of contrast,to put Michael or David together with a 2 Timothy 4:3-4 teacher would be an oil and water non-starter ; but to get Michael and David together would be to put two rare quality teachers together – note Ecclesiastes 4:12).

      I’m digressing here too.

      Dave,here is a lovely talk about Israel that David gave I think back in the 1980s ; called ‘A Biblioal Understanding of Israel.’ (Eliyahu,do hear it too,and all on here.) You can hear this online or download free on MP3,nd listen in car,or while walking the dog,or whatever :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/647?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DBiblical%26x%3D28%26y%3D5

      ——————–
      Sadly,there are thousands upon thousands of sincere men with diplomas in America,but I believe there are very very few men like Pawson.`

      (Read this review by J M ; and give yourself a wonderful treat by getting the book :
      http://www.amazon.com/review/R3KDL6TK9F1FES/ref=cm_cr_rdp_perm?ie=UTF8&ASIN=0340864273&linkCode=&nodeID=&tag=
      —————–

    55. Luke
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 5:56 am

      I felt the debate was quite biased and unfair, given that Dr. Brown didn’t allow Steve to expound on Scriptures, when he was proving a point. Brown often interupted Steve while He was explaining. However what was impressive about Steve was the way he handled all of it with patience, displaying his born again qualities as a christian. I also think Steve did a great job in outlining his view, which I believe makes Biblical sense and will stand the test of “All Scriptures”.

      In Ephesians 2:11-19, the Bible tells us that the Cross has broken down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Cross says there is no distinction between Jew and gentile.

      Therefore, this theology that places Israel, in a particular end time scenario that God has a special and a separate plan for them and the rest are his step children; this partition, the middle wall of separation is actually anti-cross. When we look at the cross what should we see? No more middle wall of separation. In building up that middle wall of separation, christians effectively deny the very things the cross stands for. Do you realize what the cross accomplished? There is no more separation between Jew and Gentile. Don’t you realize what you are saying is actually denying what Jesus Christ did on the cross? Do you want to deny Jesus Christ? It is no longer, do you want to deny what I just told you is true. Do you believe in Jesus? If you believe in the cross, then there is no way one can possibly accept this teaching.

    56. Ian
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 6:49 am

      I left a comment directed to Dr. Brown this morning it was #37. Can anyone tell me where how or why it disappeared?

    57. Mark Phillips
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 7:11 am

      Quick comment on your other post Dave :

      Overeacting is a common trait inside and outside the Body :

      1) Augustine overreacted against Pelagius ; consequently (AHARIT!) a distorted (and catstrophic) view of predestination now rules the roost. 2) The ‘Magisterial Reformers’ overreacted against Catholic superstition ; consequently (AHARIT !),many in that ‘Camp’ are trapped by a dry,intellectual,binitarian (in effect) faith. 3) Also,some have overeacted in recent years against one-man leadership ; consequently (AHARIT),elderhood is held (by some such) as a function,not an ‘office’ (actually,I think it is BOTH).

      Trying to make this bitesize ; for the topic here is the physical descendents of Israel.

      Also note your comment on Steve. And yes again,here is another trait of people : many are unable to distinguish between wheat from chaff (their personal library contains both good and bad teaching ; no sifting has taken place) ; and some are unable to spot wheat withing a heap of chaff (i.e. sometimes someone who holds a wrong stance can nevertheless hold a few solid truths in the mix as well.)

      LOF team,if that’s too off-topic,remove it if you want ; I just wanted to throw two cents in (on three AHARITS !).

      (AHARIT is a Hebrew word ; Michael has a nice free piece on this here – lasts just over 24 mins :

      http://realmessiah.askdrbrown.org/watch/hebrew-word-can-save-your-life )

    58. Sheila
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 5:23 pm

      I’m surprised no one’s brought up the significance of the Feast Days, especially those in the Fall.

      I’ve thought the Revelation seems to be the culmination of the Fall Feasts. It’s true the latter chapters speak of the Church and the New Jerusalem but it seems to me that’s not until after the thousand year reign of Messiah. There’s a whole lot of prophecies yet to be fulfilled between now and then.

    59. Dave
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 6:22 pm

      Sheila,

      I totally agree! There is so much depth in the feasts, speaking not only spiritual realities for believers, but also natural unfolding of events.

    60. Dave
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 6:27 pm

      Mark,

      I understand your desire to see Dr. Brown and Pawson get together. My past post somewhere in reference to this was just me having a bit of fun.

      Reality be told, we all need to be winnowed and tossed into the air so the chaff can be blown away, with only the wheat remaining. This is much more imperative for those who are teachers, however, and I can appreciate the sense of urgency to comply with Him. But as you stated we are all fallible and I believe if we lay our hearts as vulnerable and moldable before the Lord He will be faithful burn away all dross/chaff.

    61. Dan1el
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 6:54 pm

      I really don’t get the whole excitement over Pawson…

    62. Dan1el
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 8:49 pm

      In case anyone thinks I am anti-Semitic because of my remarks, let me assure you that I am not; however, I believe Jews are in first place wherever they go and whatever they do.
      As for their “involvement”/”placement” in things of righteousness/God, they are the “roots” (Abraham) [Ro 11] of “God’s Israel” [Gal 6], the “foundations” of “New Jerusalem” [Rv 22] — far beyond all of these things, there is Jew in particular, who is called “King of Righteousness” and “God”.

      I hope I’ve proven that I do not ascribe only evil to Jews — on the contrary, I wish I were a physical Jew; I am not.

      Sorry for any misunderstanding.

    63. Dan1el
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 8:51 pm

      Perhaps the Romans 11 tree and Revelation 22 Jerusalem are one in the same — the “roots” being the “foundations”?

    64. Luke
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 8:55 pm

      Please post this sir and let you and people comment on this!

      In Ephesians 2:11-19, the bible tells us that the cross has broken down the middle wall of separation between Jew and Gentile. Cross says there is no distinction between Jew and gentile.

      Therefore, this theology that places Israel, in a particular end time scenario that God has a special and a separate plan for them and the rest are his step children; this partition, the middle wall of separation is actually Anti-cross. When you look at the cross what do you see? No more middle wall of separation. In building up that middle wall of separation, christians effectively deny the very things the cross stands for.Do you realize what the cross accomplished? There is no more separation between Jew and Gentile. Don’t you realize what you are saying is actually denying what Jesus Christ did on the cross? Do you want to deny Jesus Christ? It is no longer, do you want to deny what I just told you is true. Do you believe in Jesus? If you believe in the cross, then there is no way one can possibly accept this teaching.

    65. RB
      December 3rd, 2012 @ 11:40 pm

      It seems to me that as the kingdom comes, there will be so much light that whatever is to be saved, will be saved.

      It may be the Gentiles that manifest that light of God in Christ to the world, but when all of Israel that is to be saved, is saved by the light,
      will the rest of the world be ready to receive all that Israel will manifest?

    66. Dan1el
      December 4th, 2012 @ 12:56 am

      I quoted the wrong chapter of Revelation; the chapter was supposed to be 21 — bear with me, I’m goyish. LOL

    67. Mark Phillips
      December 4th, 2012 @ 3:31 am

      (Dave,MLB and Pawson complement each other : figuratively speaking,Michael takes the narrow Way cable and removes it from the ‘new RELIGION socket’,and plugs it where it belongs,in the new COVENANT socket ; David meanwhile,walks up to MLB and puts a truly trinitarian,industrial-strength dragnet into Michael’s hands (saying ‘try that on for size’ !)
      ————-
      Teaching Steve may or may not have heard :

      I would be interested to know what things have been fed into Steve’s mind ; I had a quick look on the whitehorse site,and wikipedia,but didn’t find much on the bio front. I wonder if Steve has read any writings of the HIJACKERS (?) ; Augustine of Hippo basically hijacked orthodoxy,the ‘Reformers’ sat at his feet. The Western contingent of the Body has ended up with a double-hijack : the Reformers – in effect – hijacked the new,better,Second Covenant from the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel,and turned it into a Gentile Religion ; furthermore,into a ‘Covenant of Grace.’ Because the ‘Reformers’ went hook line and sinker on Augustine’s distorted take on predestination,they imagine this grace is extended only to those they think God pre-selected to join Him ‘in heaven’ ; and,anyone not picked out of the predestination-hat (so to speak) has no option but to desrvedly go to hell.

      I do not know if Steve has read any of the ‘Reformed’ stuff,but,I think he may very likely have been fed teaching from those who had the narrow Way cable put into the wrong socket (see above). It is a shame to see one of Paul’s kinsmen according to the flesh,being affected by the covenant hijack. I wish Steve well though ; may he be in the new Jerusalem,and help many many others to finish up there too.

      The Calvinist POT (and brass neck) and the Adventist KETTLE :

      I’ve heard Steve is an Adventist .If anyone wants to learn about Adventists,this talk may serve to help change/question one’s thinking.

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/878?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dseventh%26x%3D32%26y%3D15

      To call Adventiists a ‘cult’ may be very thin ice (I do not know enough about Adventists to be dismissive,and Adventism is not this thread’s theme,but listen to what Pawson has to say in the talk before making up your own mind.).

      Let it be remembered that many who call Adventism a ‘cult’ do so while calling themselves ‘Calvinists.’ Rather remarkable how Calvinists can dismiss other groups,whilst having no problem sitting at the feet of a man who wanted Michael Servetus put to death. Another reason why ‘Calvinists’ have a hard time acceptiing Adventists is that Calvinists are trigger-happy with the works-righeousness gun. Also,Adventists may have overeacted against predestination ; thing is,predestination is scriptural,but not the Augustinian distorted version.

      I seek out excellent Bible teachers. All are fallible ; each one brings something different to that table. One of the most important things evangelicals need to discover is the Jewish roots of the narrow Way. This is not a new RELIGION ; this is a new COVENANT (with physical Israel !).

      There are an array of words evengelicals use that serve to confuse themselves and others ; ‘Judaism’ and ‘Christianity’ are two words you won’t find in your Bible ; and they two words that perpetuate the ‘new religion’ error.

      I’ll close this post with what I consider to be some of Michael’s key sentences :

      From ‘Revolution In The Church’ by Michael L Brown :

      [Here refering to the words of Martin Luther and others] ‘How could a faith founded on sacrificial love turn into such a monstrous exhibition of bigotry and hate ? The answer is simple : The Church lost sight of its Jewish roots…ignorance turned into arrogance….Rather than seeing Jesus as the One who came to fulfil the faith of Moses and the Prophets,we [i.e. many misinformed Evangelicals] see Him primarily as the founder of a new religion called Christianity.Yet that is not a biblical concept…’ (Chapter 10 : ‘Have You Read the Epistle of Jacob lately ?’)

      Hear the Adventist talk.

      Oh for a rightly socketed narrow Way cable (and an industrial strength,truly trinitarian dragnet !).

      New religion ? No ! New COVENANT – with the physical descendents of Jacob/Israel.

    68. Mark Phillips
      December 4th, 2012 @ 4:18 am

      This is from the Israel section of the Free Resources page ask askdrbrown.org. (Capitalized emphasis well and truly added !)

      Then the Jewish people see that it is the Gentiles who have Israel’s Messiah, the Gentiles who are enjoying the manifest presence of God, the Gentiles who are walking in the joy of the Lord, THEN Israel will BECOME ENVIOUS. But HAS the Church made Israel envious? (From the book, Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

      “More tears” is the urgent need on behalf of the Jewish people and the State of Israel today. “More tears” must flow from the Church’s eyes before tears of repentance, and then tears of joy, will flow from Israel’s eyes. God grant us more tears! (Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

      The salvation of Israel means THE RETURN of Jesus, THE RESURRECTION of the righteous, THE REVIVAL of the Church and the restoration of the earth. (Our Hands Are Stained with Blood)

      Go there ; scroll down ; hear the audio talk ‘Why Israel’s Salvation Matters.’

      In Michael’s understanding,the salvation of Israel paves the way for Messiah’s return. This is no side issue.I think Michael’s onto something ; he’s retrieved something long swept under the evangelical (new religion) rug.

      http://askdrbrown.org/resources/free-resources/israel-resources

    69. Nick
      December 4th, 2012 @ 6:11 am

      When does someone cease being a Jew in the nationalistic sense? I would hardly call many people today Jews whom claim to be of Jewish decent. I’m not trying to be crass, but if there is a Jew who has only married Europeans for generation upon generation to the point that their Jewish features have been lost, does that still make them Jewish? What if they marry an Arab? Or is a Jew someone who dwells in Israel? I’m confused by that as well, because Israel was not reinstated as a nation until 1948….. Please bring clarity to this for me!

    70. Mark Phillips
      December 5th, 2012 @ 5:07 am

      David believes it is ‘an offense to the Gospel’ when Jew and Gentile disciples worship separately (What happened to ‘one new man’ in Messiah ?! Ephesians 2:11 – 3:6) ; he’s not wrong (same can be said of a disgraceful situation where Gentile disciples of different skin color worship separately ; that is,if such color-discriminating folk can even be called disciples of Messiah Jesus ?!)

      Pawson sees Rome as the doctrinal BIRTHPLACE of Replacement Theology. As already said in an earlier post,how ironic it is that Calvinists adore Romans. Perhaps one might say that the uninspired chapter and verses actually hold the ‘Calvinist’ veil in place (the veil preventing them from reading Romans properly and objectively).

      David is a verbal-SCULPTOR ; he spends a lot of time crafting his speeches into the most helpful,edifying form he can.) Without wishing to be disrespectful,I think it’s not far off the truth to say that a day listening to David Pawson,is likely to edify a typical evangelical more,than what they normally get from a few passive,disenfranchised,decommissioned months (or years ?!) in the Sunday-bleachers (!).

      I once read a very insightful book on reading books (!) ; I came to realise it is NOT enough to speak with accuracy,the words must also be digestible. David has the ability to speak with clarity and weight. Furthermore,a talk of David’s is like a set of steps hewn in rock ; steps that escort the listener to a higher level of understanding – step by step,sentence by sentence.

      If one compares knowledge on a subject to a well-built home,David knows how to speak in a way that assembles – brick by brick,sentence by sentence – a duplicate home in the listeners’ minds. On numerous occasions,David has spoken for hours (with only a coffee break here ‘n’ there in between) ; but,such is his skill,the listeners are gripped all the way.

      Michael,this talk on Romans would serve a double purpose,were you to show it to the folks at Concord :

      1) This beautifully crafted overview of Romans would EDIFY them.

      2) It would show them that whilst some teachers rant ‘n’ rave and stride from one side of the stage to the other,the best way to plant information is to speak clearly,simply and in an orderly step-by-step manner (with no entertaining but counterproductive ranting or striding).

      How awful to think that a letter written by Paul to nip ‘Replacement Theology’ in the bud,has actually been used by ‘Calvinists’ to ‘prove’ it ! (A classic illustration of the damage done by uninspired chapter and verse infiltration of God’s Holy Scriptures.)

      So,don a napkin ; and watch this 2-part talk on Romans one and all (approx 40 mins each).

      Part 1

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/107?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

      Part 2

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/106?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3DRomans%2Bpart%26x%3D27%26y%3D10

      (Eliyahu,Dave ; you’ll find this talk to be quite superb.)

    71. Sheila
      December 5th, 2012 @ 1:07 pm

      I’ve finally found Steve’s book among the stacks I’ve not put up on the bookshelves yet. If I can honestly and certainly respectfully critique his book, “End Time Delusion,” I’d have to say it’s classic Seventh Day Adventist beliefs. If I’m at liberty to discuss why he’s wrong about a lot of suppositions he makes together with highly selective and incorrect interpretations of certain Scriptures, I’d like to put my assessment forward. It is, in the end, still a criticism of his beliefs but we’ve weathered exactly that on many forums. Criticism meant to help him see things in the true light of Scripture, not of his person.
      I would say that we’re not at liberty to excise the verses we don’t like and that speak contrary to the erroneous interpretation of New Testament Scripture while leaving out, pretty much the entire First Testament with the exception of parts of Daniel, a spattering of Ezekiel, and mix them together with the book of the Revelation and call it done.

      I would very much like to bring Steve to the truth of “Israel” in Scripture and hopefully a major convergence of unadulterated exegesis as the end result.

      Of course, I think he’s mostly espousing what he was taught and the truth as he sees it at this time, but that doesn’t mean his eyes are glued shut. There’s hope yet!

    72. Bijoy Thomas
      December 5th, 2012 @ 8:17 pm

      Dear Dr. Brown,

      This debate was very profound and your answers were very well articulated, clearly explaining the truth of the doctrine.

      Just as there are people who hold onto pseudo-replacement theology, on the flip side, within the Messianic (Hebrew Roots) movement, there are people who adhere to the two house movement, which seems to be equally dangerous in one’s walk with Yeshua.

      One of the foremost proponents of two house movement is Mr. John K. McKee. His website is http://www.tnnonline.net.

      I would like to take this opportunity to inquire if you would be willing to debate Mr. McKee on the two house movement over the radio to clear the controversy and the falsity concerning the two house movement.

      Many blessings and shalom
      In Yeshua’s Holy Name.

      Bijoy.

    73. Ted
      December 6th, 2012 @ 1:01 pm

      Thanks Dr. Brown for standing on the side of truth. Steve Wohlberg’s replacement theology position is why most Bible college and seminary training is void of proper foundation.

    74. John Heininger
      December 11th, 2012 @ 4:41 am

      It was the Apostle Paul who said, “Hardening IN PART has come upon ISREAL untill the fullness of the GENTILS… “. The UNTIL means that God has not yet finished with Isreal as a covernant people. In regard to the impending destruction Jerusalem and the Jewish commenwealth, JESUS said, “Jerusalem shall be trodden down by the gentiles UNTIL the times of the GENTILES is fulfilled. UNTIL means that God has not finished with either JERUSALEM or the Jewish people. As they were not part of the Church, Jesus put them in the covenant context, and in that context they will finally recognize who He is, and what He has done for them, and all humanity.

    75. cash
      December 12th, 2012 @ 11:25 am

      Hello Dr. Brown

      What were the texts that you considered to be unconditional promises to israel? Why did israel go into captivity? Was there a condition for returning from captivity (if there was one)? I really enjoyed listening to debates, in the sense that you are able to hear different points of views, and study to see if there is any light in either view.

      Thanks

    76. Nick
      December 12th, 2012 @ 10:53 pm

      It is so distracting to have so many commercial breaks during a debate. Discussions are often ended abruptly and not finished on the other side of the break. This debate was all over the place. I don’t think Dr. Brown meant to do it, but he often cut off Steve Wohlberg while he was trying to explain or defend his position. Steve was trying to make a distinction between what he believes and what “replacement theology” says. I wish Steve had more time to debate and defend his view.

    77. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 12th, 2012 @ 11:24 pm

      Nick,

      Our radio show has a total of nine minutes of breaks every hour, and none are more than two minutes. We do our best within that format.

      It’s important, though, that statements are made succinctly in such a setting, and when they’re not, if we’re going to cover any ground, I need to jump in at times and guide the discussion, which I did. With a guest in studio with me, it’s easier to let them know when we need to take a break or change subjects, but I commend Steve for doing his best to be sensitive to these parameters over the phone.

      In point of fact, the final result of Steve’s beliefs is identical to classic replacement theology in terms of how it views Israel and the Jewish people today — and even how it interprets Rom 11:26 — and no amount of discussion can lessen that reality.

      That being said, I would be delighted to debate Steve in an extended face to face format as well so as to more fully cover issues. For the moment, I was more than happy to give him a platform on my show to air his beliefs, despite the fact that I’m convinced he is in serious error.

      Thanks for your comments!

    78. Jake
      December 14th, 2012 @ 5:16 pm

      Replacement theology=bogus. Even though Stephen Sizer claimed that you need to read Romans 1-8 and not just Romans 9-11. But again, I looked at the context I don’t see any replacement whatsoever, Only Chapter 3 would mention a so called replacement but that isn’t enough to substantiate replacement theology.

    79. Jake
      December 14th, 2012 @ 5:17 pm

      I should say, Chapter 3 would SEEM to show a replacement but again, not enough to substantiate it.

    80. Jake
      December 14th, 2012 @ 5:20 pm

      BTW, I am speaking of a different Stephen, Not the one you spoke to in the debate.

    81. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 14th, 2012 @ 7:14 pm

      Jake, Stephen Sizer has no good response to Paul’s clear words in Romans 9-11 and, tragically, has embraced a militantly anti-Israel position.

    82. Michael Brown’s Unconditional election of Israel: surely what’s good for the Jewish goose is good for the Gentile gander. « OneDaringJew
      December 21st, 2012 @ 6:12 am

      [...] was listening to the “Israel debate” between Michael Brown and Steve [...]

    83. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 21st, 2012 @ 1:38 pm

      Re: post #82, thanks for taking the time to listen and write! Actually, though, there’s no contradiction or tension in my position at all.

      God uconditionally elected Israel to service, promising to preserve them no matter what, even in judgment and discipline, but he did not unconditionally elect all Jews/Israelites to salvation (any more than he damned all Edomites!). And in His wisdom, He will orchestrate a national turning of the people of Israel at the end of this age, but still not meaning every single Jew in the world and still not guaranteeing what the actual numbers will be of those alive at that time.

      But again, thanks for your thoughtful post!

    84. Bijoy Thomas
      December 21st, 2012 @ 5:39 pm

      Dear Dr. Brown,

      Wonderful to hear about the ministry reports in India.

      It will great to have you debate proponent of the Two House Movement also.

      God bless you – Shalom
      Bijoy.

    85. Jeff Y.
      December 21st, 2012 @ 8:30 pm

      Hi Dr. Brown. I am trying to understand a point you made in the debate. Steve referenced Peters quotation in 1 Peter 2:9-10 from Exodus 19:6 and you said something like the Church can make spiritual application of these promises but it does not nullify who the promise was originally to (physical Israel). Do I understand that correctly? I believe Ezekiel 36:26 is something I have experienced (a new heart) as you have, so are you saying we can use this Scripture as long as we don’t negate that it was originally promised to Israel and will come to pass? Does it have a dual application? As a Christian reading the Old Testament today, how am I supposed to know which parts of it I can apply, identify with, or count as a promise and which parts I should not? Respectfully, Jeff.

    86. Ray
      December 22nd, 2012 @ 9:05 am

      My dictionary defines Israel as meaning a name, Jacob, ancient land of the Hebrews, a kingdom in the north part of that region, a country established in 1948, the Jewish people as decendents of Jacob, or any group of Christians
      as chosen by God.

      It seems to me that God replaced the Old Covenant with the New, leaving the Old for us to learn many things from, even things about the New, and that he replaced promises to a particular group of people, with many (if not all) of the same promises to a larger group of people because of the work of Christ which he did on this earth in his own physical body.

      As far as any people being replaced, I believe God may cut some off and graft others into his purposes in Christ, whether they be Jew or Gentile.

    87. Ray
      December 22nd, 2012 @ 9:15 am

      Dr. Brown,

      Steve came on your radio program to debate. Would you do the same with him on his program if he has one where this debate could continue, where he is the one to choose breaks or when it’s time to discuss another matter?

    88. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 22nd, 2012 @ 4:20 pm

      Ray,

      Of course, with joy! Also, I don’t choose when the breaks are; they are the same every hour on every station, unchanging over the months. We are all subject to the same breaks.

    89. Ray
      December 22nd, 2012 @ 9:05 pm

      Dr. Brown, I remember the scripture teaches us to be subject to one another. I was also thinking at the time I asked the above question, about how I had heard a man say that if someone is in control of a conversation because it’s his program that one will not “win”. Yet I wonder what it is to win. One way or another the truth will prevail and if we abide in Christ, we will win.

    90. Jeff Y.
      December 24th, 2012 @ 4:54 pm

      Dr. Brown I would be interested in hearing you have another debate with Steve regarding the Sabbath.

    91. Raphael Gamaroff
      December 27th, 2012 @ 12:04 am

      Reply to Michael Brown #83

      I agree totally that God chose (before the world began) only a remnant of Jews (a small group). Big group, small group, the logic remains the same: God sovereignly elects a group to salvation, but then why not an individual?

      Here is what I wrote:

      It seems bizarre that any Arminian (Michael Brown in this instance), for whom the individual’s ability to choose Christ is sacrosanct (the Holy Spirit is a gentleman and so does not resist the wishes of the human heart), should believe in the (divine unilateral) blanket election of an amorphous group (Israel) but not in the election of individuals. God, of course, Brown might retort, does not have his eye on the entire “apple of his eye” (“whoever touches you [Israel] touches the apple of his eye” – Zecharia 2:8), but only on a thinnish slice, that is, on particular individuals; those particular Jews (comprising 1. those who join the Church and 2. the unbelieving remnant) whom the Father has given together with particular Gentiles to the Son before the world began.

    92. cash
      December 30th, 2012 @ 4:26 pm

      Dear Dr. Brown

      From my study of the bible the literal nation was chosen because of Abrahams faith and obedience to the law of God. See Genesis 26:1-5 In exodus 19:1-6 lets us know that obedience to the voice of God was the condition of being an holy nation. Faith in Christ and obendience is the condition of also an individual entering into the holy city, including a jew. See Romans 2:25, and Revelation 22:14

      At any rate these are just a few of my thoughts. Your response on #83 concerning some jews being elected… were you suggesting that some jews are predestined to be saved? Also, the texts below seem to suggest that God would repent of the good that he would benefit israel if they did not turn from their evil ways. God’s repentance is different from man’s repentance. Man’s repentance suggest a change of mind while God’s repentance is simply a change in relations and circumstances.

      Jeremiah

      18:1 The word which came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
      18:2 Arise, and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words.
      18:3 Then I went down to the potter’s house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels.
      18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make [it].
      18:5 Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying,
      18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay [is] in the potter’s hand, so [are] ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
      18:7 [At what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy [it];
      18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
      18:9 And [at what] instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant [it];
      18:10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.
      18:11 Now therefore go to, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Thus saith the LORD; Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return ye now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.

      Calvin

    93. Sheila
      January 14th, 2013 @ 12:41 pm

      I hope this works. Thanks Clay!

      Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

      I’ve been thinking a lot lately on the modern state of Israel and whether or not it’s in fulfillment of prophesy that the Jews are back in the land that God gave to Abraham and his descendants. I hear many that believe Israel’s being “born in one day” has nothing to do with any prophesies. After researching Scripture again I don’t understand how we can both be reading the same Bible and come away with a completely opposite understanding of the matter. Scripture seems really clear to me that the Jews returning, their being gathered back to the land of Israel after over 2,000 years is the single most profound piece of end times prophesy we have. In my mind we may as well turn the hourglass on it’s head because we can begin looking up for our salvation is near.

      Isa 54:1 “Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the LORD.

      Isa 54:2 “Enlarge the place of your tent, and let the curtains of your habitations be stretched out; do not hold back; lengthen your cords and strengthen your stakes.

      Isa 54:3 For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left, and your offspring will possess the nations and will people the desolate cities.

      Isa 54:4 “Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

      Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.

      Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God.

      Isa 54:7 For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you.

      Isa 54:8 In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, (Isa 8:17) but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

      The Church was never “deserted” and “grieved in spirit” as a “wife (Jer 3:14) that was cast off” (Isa 8:17, Isa 49:21, Hosea 2, etc.). There is no promise in the New Testament Scriptures that I can see, saying anything to the effect of us (those of the Church) and our “offspring” “possessing the nations” or peopling the “desolate cities.” We won’t have any offspring as we will already have our resurrection bodies (Luk 20:35, 1Th 4:16, Mat 24:30-31, 1Cr 15:52, etc.). Those who survive “The Day of the Lord” in all the nations will still be living and most likely procreating for a thousand years under the reign of Messiah (Isa. 65) and they will come to Israel for the feast days (Isa. 2:4, Isa. 54:3, Isa 49:14-26, Isa. 65:17-25, Psa 92:12-14, Zech. 14:16-19). The nations who gather against the Lord and against His holy city will bow down, not only to Him, but to the remnant of the Israelites is what the prophets say. That’s a lot to take up right now but Scripture sounds really clear to me that the Jews will yet hold sway over their very real and spiritual enemies.

      The Lord certainly never looked upon us in His Church with “overflowing anger” (Isa. 54:8) and neither did He ever “hide His face” from us. This must be literal Israel, those who will yet be humbled, who will turn to the Lord at the last and that He will have compassion on. (Isa 54:8, Zeph. 3:9-20)

      The Church hasn’t been “driven away” by the Lord as Scripture says Israel was. We (the Gentiles) were never given the same promises as Abraham’s physical descendants. The members of the Church inherited the spiritual blessings of Abraham, the spiritual blessings brought about by the righteous seed, the Messiah. The fulfillment of the spititual blessings given to people of all nations don’t annul the blessings of mercy and grace promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, those of the circumcision, those given the land grant by covenant.

      Isa 54:9 “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you.

      Isa 54:10 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

      Isa 54:11 “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires.

      Isa 54:12 I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones.

      Isa 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.

      Isa 54:14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you.

      Isa 54:15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

      Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

      Isa 54:17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their vindication from me, declares the LORD.”

      Jerusalem hasn’t yet experienced the peace spoken of and neither has it been established as the highest of the mountains, the city from where Messiah will rule for a thousand years. His feet have yet to touch down opposite the temple mount and He’s not meted out vengeance and recompense for the “controversy of Zion.” How can any of those prophesies apply to the Church as being Israel? It’s like saying that the people of India are interchangeable with the people of China and the English are equivalent to the Latinos. I understand the spiritual implications of salvation being through Messiah only, whether Jew or Gentile, but you can only maintain the Church as Israel if you negate many of the future prophesies in the FT concerning “Israel” as they just don’t fit the Body of Christ. Some can be applied to the Church but so many of the verses the Adventists and Preterists claim cannot be applied at all. I know I’ve had the conversation about prophecy with others before and I wish I’d saved all my posts to documents because I’d love to keep from typing it all out again! Oh well I’ll do what I can.

      God set boundaries for all nations and Israel is one of them; and not just anyone of them but a very specific one of them.

      ESV – Deu 32:8-9
      When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders* of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.*
      Footnotes:
      * Or territories
      * Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text sons of Israel
      Deu 32:9 For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

      So, whether it’s sons of God or sons of Israel doesn’t matter as the focus is that the Most High “divided” us up. He put the Chinese in China, the Egyptians were in Egypt and the Indians in India and so forth and so on. Israel belongs to the LORD as all the nations do and He can do what He pleases with what He has created. It seems to me that those left alive and those who will be as the angels having their resurrected bodies when the Lord returns, will stay right where they are with the exception of the feast days. Scripture says as much.

      Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

      Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

      Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; [fn] there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

      Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

      The Lord made the earth to be inhabited and it will stay that way into eternity is what Scripture says. The thousand year reign of Messiah is literal and the NT says we are to reign with him. Who are we reigning over if there’s no people?

      Micah tells us that everyone will sit under his own vine and his own fig tree. The Church has never been referred to as the “fig tree” although “vine” is possible, I think, in the instance of the Church but never the fig tree. I tend to believe that each nation will inhabit the area of land where they are when the Lord returns to reign–from Jerusalem–the captial of Israel–the place where He placed His Name forever–the land of His inheritance, etc.! I hardly think Hamas and Hezbollah, nor Al Qaida are the people the prophets are speaking of once more inhabiting the land of Israel, unless they repent at the last, otherwise they’re of those who “go down to the pit with the uncircumcised” when he renders judgment and justice to those who spoil Israel, Jerusalem and the members of His Church.

      Mic 4:1 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it,

      Mic 4:2 and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, [fn] and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

      Mic 4:3 He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

      Mic 4:4 but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

      Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

      Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

      Isa 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

      Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

      Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

      Hsa 2:18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

      Zec 9:10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace to the nations; his rule shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

      Psa 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish, and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

      Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

      Isa 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; instead of wood, bronze, instead of stones, iron. I will make your overseers peace and your taskmasters righteousness.

      Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.

      Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

      We’ve not yet experienced anything even remotely akin to peace of that magnitude. It’s yet future. The saints of the Church will be “overseers” who reign with Him as in vs. 17 and they would be those who are in the Body of Christ who will be given a job to do, no doubt. But as far as we know the laws of the universe are still in effect and we’ve not been to the depths of the ocean’s floors as of today. : > ) That says to me that the Lord’s promises to Abraham’s descendants are still in effect.

      ESV – Jer 31:35 –
      Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD of hosts is his name:

      Jer 31:36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”

      Jer 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.”

      Jer 33:20 “Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,

      Jer 33:21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.

      Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

      Jer 33:23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:

      Jer 33:24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

      Jer 33:25 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth,

      Jer 33:26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”

      Rom 11:26 (ESV) — And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

      It seems clear that there is still, to this day, a literal Israel (of the flesh, if you will), who will yet cry out to Messiah, Jesus, and then the Millenium will begin when He returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye! A bittersweet day I think. Too many lost souls!

    94. Sheila
      January 14th, 2013 @ 12:52 pm

      I hope this works. Thanks Clay!

      Isa 40:8 The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.

      I’ve been thinking a lot lately on the modern state of Israel and whether or not it’s in fulfillment of prophesy that the Jews are back in the land that God gave to Abraham and his descendants. I hear many that believe Israel’s being “born in one day” has nothing to do with any prophesies. After researching Scripture again I don’t understand how we can both be reading the same Bible and come away with a completely opposite understanding of the matter. Scripture seems really clear to me that the Jews returning, their being gathered back to the land of Israel after over 2,000 years is the single most profound piece of end times prophesy we have. In my mind we may as well turn the hourglass on it’s head because we can begin looking up for our salvation is near.

      Isa 54:1 “Sing, O barren one, who did not bear; break forth into singing and cry aloud, you who have not been in labor! For the children of the desolate one will be more than the children of her who is married,” says the LORD.

      Isa 54:2 “Enlarge the place of your tent, and let the curtains of your habitations be stretched out; do not hold back; lengthen your cords and strengthen your stakes.

      Isa 54:3 For you will spread abroad to the right and to the left, and your offspring will possess the nations and will people the desolate cities.

      Isa 54:4 “Fear not, for you will not be ashamed; be not confounded, for you will not be disgraced; for you will forget the shame of your youth, and the reproach of your widowhood you will remember no more.

      Isa 54:5 For your Maker is your husband, the LORD of hosts is his name; and the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer, the God of the whole earth he is called.

      Isa 54:6 For the LORD has called you like a wife deserted and grieved in spirit, like a wife of youth when she is cast off, says your God.

      Isa 54:7 For a brief moment I deserted you, but with great compassion I will gather you.

      Isa 54:8 In overflowing anger for a moment I hid my face from you, (Isa 8:17) but with everlasting love I will have compassion on you,” says the LORD, your Redeemer.

      The Church was never “deserted” and “grieved in spirit” as a “wife (Jer 3:14) that was cast off” (Isa 8:17, Isa 49:21, Hosea 2, etc.). We’ve never been “widowed” at any time. There is no promise in the New Testament Scriptures that I can see, saying anything to the effect of us (those of the Church) and our “offspring” “possessing the nations” or peopling the “desolate cities.” We won’t have any offspring as we will already have our resurrection bodies (Luk 20:35, 1Th 4:16, Mat 24:30-31, 1Cr 15:52, etc.). Those who survive “The Day of the Lord” in all the nations will still be living and most likely procreating for a thousand years under the reign of Messiah (Isa. 65) and they will come to Israel for the feast days (Isa. 2:4, Isa. 54:3, Isa 49:14-26, Isa. 65:17-25, Psa 92:12-14, Zech. 14:16-19). The nations who gather against the Lord and against His holy city will bow down, not only to Him, but to the remnant of the Israelites is what the prophets say. That’s a lot to take up right now but Scripture sounds really clear to me that the Jews will yet hold sway over their very real and spiritual enemies.

      The Lord certainly never looked upon us in His Church with “overflowing anger” (Isa. 54:8) and neither did He ever “hide His face” from us. This must be literal Israel, those who will yet be humbled, who will turn to the Lord at the last and that He will have compassion on. (Isa 54:8, Zeph. 3:9-20)

      The Church hasn’t been “driven away” by the Lord as Scripture says Israel was. We (the Gentiles) were never given the same promises as Abraham’s physical descendants. The members of the Church inherited the spiritual blessings of Abraham, the spiritual blessings brought about by the righteous seed, the Messiah. The fulfillment of the spititual blessings given to people of all nations don’t annul the blessings of mercy and grace promised to the physical descendants of Abraham, those of the circumcision, those given the land grant by covenant.

      Isa 54:9 “This is like the days of Noah to me: as I swore that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth, so I have sworn that I will not be angry with you, and will not rebuke you.

      Isa 54:10 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed,” says the LORD, who has compassion on you.

      Isa 54:11 “O afflicted one, storm-tossed and not comforted, behold, I will set your stones in antimony, and lay your foundations with sapphires.

      Isa 54:12 I will make your pinnacles of agate, your gates of carbuncles, and all your wall of precious stones.

      Isa 54:13 All your children shall be taught by the LORD, and great shall be the peace of your children.

      Isa 54:14 In righteousness you shall be established; you shall be far from oppression, for you shall not fear; and from terror, for it shall not come near you.

      Isa 54:15 If anyone stirs up strife, it is not from me; whoever stirs up strife with you shall fall because of you.

      Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith who blows the fire of coals and produces a weapon for its purpose. I have also created the ravager to destroy;

      Isa 54:17 no weapon that is fashioned against you shall succeed, and you shall refute every tongue that rises against you in judgment. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD and their vindication from me, declares the LORD.”

      Jerusalem hasn’t yet experienced the peace spoken of and neither has it been established as the highest of the mountains, the city from where Messiah will rule for a thousand years. His feet have yet to touch down opposite the temple mount and He’s not meted out vengeance and recompense for the “controversy of Zion.” How can any of those prophesies apply to the Church as being Israel? It’s like saying that the people of India are interchangeable with the people of China and the English are equivalent to the Latinos. I understand the spiritual implications of salvation being through Messiah only, whether Jew or Gentile, but you can only maintain the Church as Israel if you negate many of the future prophesies in the FT concerning “Israel” as they just don’t fit the Body of Christ. Some can be applied to the Church but so many of the verses the Adventists and Preterists claim cannot be applied at all. I know I’ve had the conversation about prophecy with others before and I wish I’d saved all my posts to documents because I’d love to keep from typing it all out again! Oh well I’ll do what I can.

      God set boundaries for all nations and Israel is one of them; and not just anyone of them but a very specific one of them.

      ESV – Deu 32:8-9
      When the Most High gave to the nations their inheritance, when he divided mankind, he fixed the borders* of the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.*
      Footnotes:
      * Or territories
      * Compare Dead Sea Scroll, Septuagint; Masoretic Text sons of Israel
      Deu 32:9 For the LORD’s portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

      So, whether it’s sons of God or sons of Israel doesn’t matter as the focus is that the Most High “divided” us up. He put the Chinese in China, the Egyptians were in Egypt and the Indians in India and so forth and so on. Israel belongs to the LORD as all the nations do and He can do what He pleases with what He has created. It seems to me that those left alive and those who will be as the angels having their resurrected bodies when the Lord returns, will stay right where they are with the exception of the feast days. Scripture says as much.

      Zec 14:16 Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths.

      Zec 14:17 And if any of the families of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, there will be no rain on them.

      Zec 14:18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up and present themselves, then on them there shall be no rain; [fn] there shall be the plague with which the LORD afflicts the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

      Zec 14:19 This shall be the punishment to Egypt and the punishment to all the nations that do not go up to keep the Feast of Booths.

      The Lord made the earth to be inhabited and it will stay that way into eternity is what Scripture says. The thousand year reign of Messiah is literal and the NT says we are to reign with him. Who are we reigning over if there’s no people?

      Micah tells us that everyone will sit under his own vine and his own fig tree. The Church has never been referred to as the “fig tree” although “vine” is possible, I think, in the instance of the Church but never the fig tree. I tend to believe that each nation will inhabit the area of land where they are when the Lord returns to reign–from Jerusalem–the captial of Israel–the place where He placed His Name forever–the land of His inheritance, etc.! I hardly think Hamas and Hezbollah, nor Al Qaida are the people the prophets are speaking of once more inhabiting the land of Israel, unless they repent at the last, otherwise they’re of those who “go down to the pit with the uncircumcised” when he renders judgment and justice to those who spoil Israel, Jerusalem and the members of His Church.

      Mic 4:1 It shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established as the highest of the mountains, and it shall be lifted up above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it,

      Mic 4:2 and many nations shall come, and say: “Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob, that he may teach us his ways and that we may walk in his paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, [fn] and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

      Mic 4:3 He shall judge between many peoples, and shall decide for strong nations far away; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore;

      Mic 4:4 but they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig tree, and no one shall make them afraid, for the mouth of the LORD of hosts has spoken.

      Isa 2:4 He shall judge between the nations, and shall decide disputes for many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

      Isa 11:6 The wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the young goat, and the calf and the lion and the fattened calf together; and a little child shall lead them.

      Isa 11:7 The cow and the bear shall graze; their young shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.

      Isa 11:8 The nursing child shall play over the hole of the cobra, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the adder’s den.

      Isa 11:9 They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

      Hsa 2:18 And I will make for them a covenant on that day with the beasts of the field, the birds of the heavens, and the creeping things of the ground. And I will abolish the bow, the sword, and war from the land, and I will make you lie down in safety.

      Zec 9:10 I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim and the war horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off, and he shall speak peace to the nations; his rule shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth.

      Psa 72:7 In his days may the righteous flourish, and peace abound, till the moon be no more!

      Isa 9:7 Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.

      Isa 60:17 Instead of bronze I will bring gold, and instead of iron I will bring silver; instead of wood, bronze, instead of stones, iron. I will make your overseers peace and your taskmasters righteousness.

      Isa 60:18 Violence shall no more be heard in your land, devastation or destruction within your borders; you shall call your walls Salvation, and your gates Praise.

      Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall graze together; the lion shall eat straw like the ox, and dust shall be the serpent’s food. They shall not hurt or destroy in all my holy mountain,” says the LORD.

      We’ve not yet experienced anything even remotely akin to peace of that magnitude. It’s yet future. The saints of the Church will be “overseers” who reign with Him as in vs. 17 and they would be those who are in the Body of Christ who will be given a job to do, no doubt. But as far as we know the laws of the universe are still in effect and we’ve not been to the depths of the ocean’s floors as of today. : > ) That says to me that the Lord’s promises to Abraham’s descendants are still in effect.

      ESV – Jer 31:35 –
      Thus says the LORD, who gives the sun for light by day and the fixed order of the moon and the stars for light by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar– the LORD of hosts is his name:

      Jer 31:36 “If this fixed order departs from before me, declares the LORD, then shall the offspring of Israel cease from being a nation before me forever.”

      Jer 31:37 Thus says the LORD: “If the heavens above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth below can be explored, then I will cast off all the offspring of Israel for all that they have done, declares the LORD.”

      Jer 33:20 “Thus says the LORD: If you can break my covenant with the day and my covenant with the night, so that day and night will not come at their appointed time,

      Jer 33:21 then also my covenant with David my servant may be broken, so that he shall not have a son to reign on his throne, and my covenant with the Levitical priests my ministers.

      Jer 33:22 As the host of heaven cannot be numbered and the sands of the sea cannot be measured, so I will multiply the offspring of David my servant, and the Levitical priests who minister to me.”

      Jer 33:23 The word of the LORD came to Jeremiah:

      Jer 33:24 “Have you not observed that these people are saying, ‘The LORD has rejected the two clans that he chose’? Thus they have despised my people so that they are no longer a nation in their sight.

      Jer 33:25 Thus says the LORD: If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed order of heaven and earth,

      Jer 33:26 then I will reject the offspring of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his offspring to rule over the offspring of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. For I will restore their fortunes and will have mercy on them.”

      Rom 11:26 (ESV) — And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; Rom 11:27 For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers’ sakes.

      The Church is never referred to as Jacob either. It seems clear that there is still, to this day, a literal Israel (of the flesh, if you will), who will yet cry out to Messiah, Jesus, and when He returns in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye then the Millenium will begin! A bittersweet day I think. Too many lost souls!

    95. Sheila
      January 14th, 2013 @ 12:54 pm

      Oops, sorry about that. I see my posts are once more going through. I was in with the spam and about to give up. :)

    96. Sheila
      January 15th, 2013 @ 7:15 am

      Isa 8:17 And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

      There are verses in Scripture that certainly are speaking of the Spiritual descendants of Messiah as His offspring. I’m not arguing that. What I’ve come to understand is that if we write literal Israel out of the picture we’d have to do away with Romans 9-11 because Paul gets down to the nitty-gritty concerning those Jews yet to be established through the Lord’s compassion, mercy and grace. “He will have mercy on whom He will.” He will establish a remnant from the house of Israel as He promised He would. We hear all the prophets saying the same thing. The Lord will have a remnant of “the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” gathered back from the nations regardless of “all they’ve done.” The city of Jerusalem is promised to be rescued as well.

      Isa 11:11 In that day the Lord will extend his hand yet a second time to recover the remnant that remains of his people, from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush, from Elam, from Shinar, from Hamath, and from the coastlands of the sea.

      Isa 11:12 He will raise a signal for the nations and will assemble the banished of Israel, and gather the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

      We see the Lord extending His hand “a second time” to recover the remnant scattered to the four corners of the earth just as they were in the days of the Gospel. James wrote greetings “to the twelve tribes of Israel scattered abroad” (Jam 1:1) as he was a disciple to the Jews and Paul to the Gentiles. (Gal 2:9) They were still considered scattered in the days of Jesus. They probably made pilgrimage for the major feast days as the Torah required but they were living outside of the land of Israel, being still dispersed.

      Psa 102:13 Thou shalt arise, and have mercy upon Zion: for the time to favour her, yea, the set time, is come.

      Psa 102:14 For thy servants take pleasure in her stones, and favour the dust thereof.

      Psa 102:15 So the heathen shall fear the name of the LORD, and all the kings of the earth thy glory.

      Psa 102:16 When the LORD shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory.

      Zion is the City of David but came to be synonymous with Jerusalem. As far as I can tell, Jerusalem is said to be the daughter of Zion and visa versa. I understand and see where the New Jerusalem is lowered from heaven to earth at the end of the Millennium but I don’t see any reason for all of the Church to live in the land of Israel, let alone one city during the 1000 year reign of Messiah. Zion is the city of the Great King and the place from where Messiah will reign. There is much said in the FT about Zion that has nothing to do with the Church.

      2Ki 19:30 And the remnant that is escaped of the house of Judah shall yet again take root downward, and bear fruit upward.

      2Ki 19:31 For out of Jerusalem shall go forth a remnant, and they that escape out of mount Zion: the zeal of the LORD of hosts shall do this.

      2Ki 19:32 “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there, or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it.

      2Ki 19:33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD.

      2Ki 19:34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”

      Psa 129:5 Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion.

      There’s good information about Zion /Jerusalem at this website: http://www.letusreason.org/Juda12.htm

      The thing is is that Zion is where the Lord has placed His Name–FOREVER! People are up in arms over who will gain Jerusalem as their capitol and I can tell you it belongs to the LORD and His Messiah and the Jews will again live there with no threat from their neighbors and nothing unclean, no one who denies the Father and the Son, will pass through it again! “When the Lord builds up Zion He shall appear in His Glory.”— Psa 102:16

      The Lord our Righteousness

      The Lord alone is Righteous and works for His Name’s sake. It was never because of Israel’s righteousness that He worked but for His own righteousness sake that His Name be not profained among the people of the nations. Neither is it because of our righteousness that we are saved. It is by the Grace of God and so it is with the remnant of Israel. The Lord will not forget his covenant nor remove His mercy when they cry out to Him–which I believe they will when “the time of Jacob’s trouble” is in full swing. Pray that it may be cut very short for them and all of us and that they may all be saved! Because until the Jews cry out to Messiah, Jesus, we’ll all be in a world of trouble praying for the Lord to return!

      Deu 9:5 Not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart are you going in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations the LORD your God is driving them out from before you, and that he may confirm the word that the LORD gave to your fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.

      Deu 9:6 “Know, therefore, that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stubborn people.

      2Ki 19:32 “Therefore thus says the LORD concerning the king of Assyria: He shall not come into this city or shoot an arrow there, or come before it with a shield or cast up a siege mound against it.

      2Ki 19:33 By the way that he came, by the same he shall return, and he shall not come into this city, declares the LORD.

      2Ki 19:34 For I will defend this city to save it, for my own sake and for the sake of my servant David.”

      2Ki 19:35 And that night the angel of the LORD went out and struck down 185,000 in the camp of the Assyrians. And when people arose early in the morning, behold, these were all dead bodies.

      Psa 106:4 Remember me, O LORD, when you show favor to your people; help me when you save them,

      Psa 106:5 that I may look upon the prosperity of your chosen ones, that I may rejoice in the gladness of your nation, that I may glory with your inheritance.

      Psa 106:6 Both we and our fathers have sinned; we have committed iniquity; we have done wickedness.

      Psa 106:7 Our fathers, when they were in Egypt, did not consider your wondrous works; they did not remember the abundance of your steadfast love, but rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.

      Psa 106:8 Yet he saved them for his name’s sake, that he might make known his mighty power.

      Psa 106:43 Many times he delivered them, but they were rebellious in their purposes and were brought low through their iniquity.

      Psa 106:44 Nevertheless, he looked upon their distress, when he heard their cry.

      Psa 106:45 For their sake he remembered his covenant, and relented according to the abundance of his steadfast love.

      Psa 106:46 He caused them to be pitied by all those who held them captive.

      Psa 106:47 Save us, O LORD our God, and gather us from among the nations, that we may give thanks to your holy name and glory in your praise.

      Psa 106:48 Blessed be the LORD, the God of Israel, from everlasting to everlasting! And let all the people say, “Amen!” Praise the LORD!

      Eze 36:22 –
      “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

      Eze 36:32 It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

      It is never for our righteousness that the Lord acts for us it is always and only for His righteousness sake. All of Eze. chapter 36 explains the righteousness of the Lord, GOD in bringing to pass all that He has promised. There will be no loose ends when the Lord reigns from Zion.

      There are entire chapters that outline the past, present and future condition of the Israelites. Isaiah 11 lays it out even into the millenium just as isa 65 does. There are entirely too many prophecies that have not been wholly fulfilled and neither do they apply to the Church because none of them would make any sense. I think it’s a very distorted view to try to force the Church into too many First Testament Scriptures. In fact, we shouldn’t try to force too much into the book of the Revelation either. Gentiles are not Jews, the Church is not Israel and the Jews are not a Gentile nation when interpreting FT prophecies concerning literal Israel. In the Revelation, Israel is still Israel and they’re living through the tribulation with us, through the time of Jacob’s trouble from which a remnant will be saved. Some prophecies can apply to both Israel and the Church but I don’t think it’s good for the members of the Church to be as self-centered and proud and we’ve become. It’s not all about us. God has a grand plan and we should be happy with our portion in the Body of Messiah is what I think–the gentiles were grafted in by the Grace of God and there’s no reason why He can’t choose to be gracious in the end to the House of Israel. Scripture says He will be.

      There are also many prophesies concerning literal Israel that never found their completion in the time they were written. Some things weren’t completely fulfilled as spoken by the prophets. Many prophecies are parallels of future fulfillment when the Israelites will be gathered from the four corners of the earth back to Israel, which we know is happening now in our lifetime. The Jews of Ethiopia, Russia and America, to name a few, are returning to the land of Israel and they’re being received just as the prophets said they would be. We shouldn’t demand exact phraseology when looking to future prophesies. The hyperbolic and estatic language style of the prophets makes sense to me as I can’t imagine having the Spirit come over me with images of things to come and with messages from God! It’s enough to be privy to those things that are coming on the earth so that we may trim our lamps and be always ready for the Bridgegroom!

    97. Edwin
      February 10th, 2013 @ 2:52 pm

      Jesuschrist is merciful. Israel are his children the saved gentiles were taken as children also. The main idea here is God is Allmighty. He told Moses get of the way Im going to destroy these people they are a desobedient nation and i im going to give you a new one. Moses said no Lord, dont do that. You took them from Egypt to destroy them in the desert. What about your name. And God hold his anger. You know God is Allmighty. He is going to save the Israel of the last days. Thats his promise. Israel is the Countdown(testimony) of God for the whole world that do not believe in Jesus. The Church is the Testimony for the jews and gentiles who would believe in Christ via the gospel. At the end the spiritual Israel (the Church) and (phisical) Israel will become one body. For the world if you want to see Jesus watch the church if the world want to see God watch Israel(phisical). By the way the only people that have a promise at the end is the Phisical Israel. The church would not be here. Think about these: The misteries belong to God “Jesuschrist”, the rebeletions belong to man. Remember church we have the mind of Christ.

    98. Refuting Steve Wohlberg on His Replacement Theology | ALAN KURSCHNER
      February 13th, 2013 @ 10:46 am

      [...] Michael Brown debated Steve Wohlberg on the meaning of Israel in the New Testament. Does it refer to the physical descendants of Abraham, I…? [...]

    99. Jeremy
      March 18th, 2013 @ 5:22 pm

      Still listening…and this may have been addressed in the last part of the debate (and obviously it is too large to be fully addressed in a single radio debate), but isn’t it the case that even Jesus said that (at LEAST the THEN non-scattered) Israel lost something significant by their refusal to receive Christ? Matthew 21:42,43 has Jesus saying that The Kingdom “will be” taken from “them” (leaving who that is for a moment) and given to a “nation” bearing the fruit thereof. So conditional on bearing fruit, the Kingdom (this needs more definition, admittedly) is being taken away from one people (however broad that needs to be) and given to a “nation” bearing the fruit thereof. From one people to another? From one people to another? From a specific group to a totally different group in another nation?

      Later on in that passage (v45), the religious leaders of Jesus day realized it was “them” He was speaking of. Just the leaders? Or them AND those they were leading into perdition? Jesus’ weeping over Jerusalem seems to indicate it was more than just the leaders that lost “the Kingdom” (again, whatever that is defined as).

      So if the promise is to Abraham and his seed (as was quoted by Mr. Wohlberg), doesn’t Jesus’ declaration imply that the only fulfillment of the promise to Abraham will be in Christ? How else can anyone (nation, individual or group) bring forth good fruit?

      Not entirely unrelated are the controversial words in in the letters to the churches of Smyrna and Philadelphia concerning those who say they are Jews and are not, in fact, Jews. Is this God’s condemnation of those who claim a physical lineage in error (whether intentionally or not)? Or is it, rather (as the charge of blasphemy in Rev 2:9 seems to imply) the leveling of a spiritual charge of false brethren? Paul’s declaration that a Jew is one who is inwardly a Jew seems to say that this is a spiritual term. Otherwise, what do we make of there being no Greek or Jew in Christ (Galatians 3:28)? Not that there is no use for such a distinction generally, but that spiritually it is not Jewish Believers and Gentile Believers. There is no difference between the two. That being the case, the only important eternal distinction (which the letters to the churches seem clearly to be concerned with) is the spiritual.

      While I don’t admit to having a full and rigorous final answer to this difficult issue, it seems to me that there is merit to Mr. Wohlberg’s position. That it may have been used (or variants of it) to justify genocide, murder, torture, slavery etc… is less a testimony to the doctrine, I think, than the depravity of man. The Jews delivered Christ to be crucified in favor of Barabbus. Peter laid guilt for this at the feet of the religious rulers. But any true believer in Christ doesn’t have the first thought of using this as an excuse for persecution. There is no justification for that. But the unregenerate will try to justify itself with anything he can get ahold of. It’s not necessarily the fault of the doctrine, but the doctrinaire.

      Again…interested in thoughts and responses as I won’t pretend I’ve fully addressed the matter – just that I haven’t heard this part of it dealt with.

    100. Jeremy
      March 18th, 2013 @ 5:28 pm

      Regarding Rev 2:9, Jesus responds to the Pharisees (who make the lineage claim of being Abraham’s children) rather aggressively – saying they are the children of the devil. Not because of physical lineage (though some have tried, crudely, to make that ridiculous assertion) but because of spiritual association. So if Jesus’ emphasis was clearly spiritual, then that should at least carry to the declaration in Matthew 21. And if that is the case, then at the very least, we have to assert that the Revelation of Jesus Christ deals with that same Kingdom (given to his servants).

      So while I would have to agree that there are physical promises made to physical Israel that will be (or have been?) fulfilled, I think his assertion that Revelation deals with spiritual Israel is worth examination.

    101. Jeremy
      March 18th, 2013 @ 5:38 pm

      For the record – Dr. Brown brought up a good point – that national Israel (or a remnant thereof) will be preserved without condition. I think it is important, though, that the “sand of the sea and stars of the sea” are not necessarily a national promise (but acknowledge that it could be…just working through this).

      Preservation MUST be unconditional (at least to some degree…not all the wicked in Israel were cut off) – Isaiah 1:9, I think, makes that clear.

    102. Tim
      November 8th, 2013 @ 10:05 am

      Michael, I think you made it abundantly clear that the Bible shows ‘God is not through with the Jew’. It seems to me that Scripture is very clear on this point and that Bible prophecy revolves around Israel like the earth around the sun. What troubles me is that Wohlberg spends a lot of time and energy cherry picking the verses that he can somehow use to fit his dogma whilst ignoring those that clearly show he is in error. Is this not the work of a deceiver? Is this not wilful in it’s intent and is not its fruit destructive? Can anything constructive come from his message? If not, what is the point of ‘preaching’ it? It doesn’t build up or edify believers. If anything, it evokes judgmentalism and spiritual pride. If Wohlberg believes that this is a truly worthy way to ‘minister’, shouldn’t he be looking for another profession?
      If Jesus (the great high priest and intercessor) cried out “Father forgive them”, not to mention ‘whatever you ask IN MY NAME you shall receive’ and ‘Father I know that you ALWAYS hear Me’, can’t we be reasonably confident that He was praying in the will of God?
      I think you are a more gracious man than I Michael. I’m not sure that I could extend the fair mindedness and even-handedness towards a supposed ‘feeder of the flock’ that you showed to Wohlberg. Great job, but somehow, I think your efforts will be valued more by people who genuinely seek truth than by Wohlberg himself… I mean, why let sound doctrine get in the way of a fierce and destructive dogma… right?

    103. Christ Through The Bible: Genesis 12-22. The Covenant With Abraham - iForeignAffairs
      May 22nd, 2014 @ 9:17 am

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