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  • A Debate with Prof. Doug Groothius on Whether Christians Can Vote for Romney and Dr. Brown’s Thoughts on “Reach Out and Resist”

    September 19, 2012 | 72 Comments

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    Denver Seminary Professor Doug Groothius engages with callers who do not believe Christians can vote for a Mormon and then Dr. Brown responds to sensitive emails with his principles of “reach out and resist.”  Listen live here 2-4 pm EST, and call into the show at  (866) 348 7884  with your questions and comments.

     

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Whether President Obama is re-elected, whether Mitt Romney is elected, we must realize that our great hope is not in the White House, it is in God and the people of God living out our faith.

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Friends there is a lot of insane moral thinking in the world. People really have lost their bearings. It’s up to us, the people of God, to recover the truth, speak the truth, live the truth, be the salt and light!

     

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    “Reach Out and Resist”

    Should Evangelicals and Mormons Work Together?

    Dr. Brown Interviews Prof. Douglas Groothius on Christian Apologetics

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    Comments

    72 Responses to “A Debate with Prof. Doug Groothius on Whether Christians Can Vote for Romney and Dr. Brown’s Thoughts on “Reach Out and Resist””

    1. Sean
      September 19th, 2012 @ 1:31 pm

      I agree that Christians can vote for a Mormon as long as his policies do not contradict Christian beliefs. Our present president does not protect Christian principles either. So, why shouldn’t you vote for a Mormon who promises to rule the country with good principles that Christians follow?

    2. R Dreamer
      September 19th, 2012 @ 1:55 pm

      Dr. Brown: Just wanted to let you know how disappointed, I am in your show today(09/19/12). I think the format you have set up reminds me more of Rush Limbaugh radio than your generally informative programs. This guy(Groothius)should not be on the radio and you should at least be questioning him instead of allowing him to spew vitriol.It is not a fair format to allow callers a to respond and cut them off and allow the professor to go on and on for 7 to 8 minutes at a time. Although I happen to agree with him about abortion, he loses all credibility when he says “he believes everything Obama has done is wrong”. Come on! He also says he is not a one issue voter, spouts wrong info on issues then circles back to the one issue. It is ok to be a one issue voter if you think that one issue is most important to Christ!
      If you want to educate/sway voters there are better, more informed more COMPASSIONATE people you can surely put on the air!

      Blessings,

      R Dreamer

    3. Brian
      September 20th, 2012 @ 5:54 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      I actually had to listen to the opening of your program at least a dozen times to make sure I clearly heard what you said, “While I say no Christian can possibly vote for Mr. Obama to be president…” Your comment left me utterly surprised that you would be so bold to make such a sweeping statement as you have.

      I find myself growing wearisome at the unequal weights and measures distributed to President Obama which is deceptive and misleading. One caller on a previous program criticized our president and said that he was anti- Israel, citing the fact that in his term he has not visited that country. However, President Bush did not visit Israel until his “second” term in office, in his “seventh” year. Unjust judgment, I’ll say. President Obama provided full financing and technical assistance for Israel’s Iron Dome short-range anti-rocket defense system. In July, he provided an additional $70 million to extend the Iron Dome system across southern Israel. This is on top of the $3 billion in annual military assistance to Israel that the president requests and the Congress approves. Unjust judgment, Indeed!

      Doug Groothius, too, is misleading in stating that more people are on food stamps than ever before. Though this is true, he failed to acknowledge that the policies in place are the “exact” same policies that were in place with President Bush. President Obama, only continued with the same programs. Because the economy was left in such shambles, it only makes sense that more people are dependent on Government aid. Once again, misleading indeed!

      Additionally, Doug Groothius appears to be a bit confused in offering a free pass to vote for a Mormon, but even more so for his open endorsement for Rick Santorum. How can one support a racist (who is a murder) and be right with G-d anymore than an abortionist? Please view the two links below and judge for yourself.

      As for Mitt Romney, he has refused to acknowledge the racist history of his cult organization, and said that he will not distance himself from his faith; however, this is exactly what the Republican party demanded from Barak Obama when he ran for President regarding Reverend Wright. Unjust weight and measure, indeed!

      Where is your heart cry against the voter suppression that stands right before our eyes? GOP officials have openly revealed their motive in declaring that it will help Romney to win. It has been demonstrated that voter fraud has amounted to 1 in 15 million. Several states (i.e., Pennsylvania, Wisconsin) do not have even one documented case on record. We all know that it will affect the minorities, elderly and disabled. How is that Christian? This is nothing more than Jim Crow resurrected. Unjust, indeed!

      And you say, no Christian can possibly vote for Mr. Obama to be president. May G-d have mercy on us all on that great day!

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdfZmcuomcE

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1GJt4B4tAo

    4. Timotheus
      September 20th, 2012 @ 6:15 pm
    5. Jonathan
      September 20th, 2012 @ 9:38 pm

      Brian,

      George W. Bush was not perfect on his positions with Israel either. I recognize that.

      Here is a book you could read that addresses that subject http://www.amazon.com/Eye-Facing-Consequences-Dividing-Israel/dp/0971734704

      But don’t try to whitewash Obama’s abysmal history toward Israel.

      You make it sound like he singlehandedly provided the assistance to Israel. Didn’t the assistance come through legislation in Congress? Did Obama draft and vote for the legislation or did he merely sign it? Let’s not act like he was solely responsible for it.

      In the meantime he has pressured Israel to negotiate with terrorists and to turn a blind eye to their country’s national security threats along with a call for them to return to pre-1967 borders.

      But the real thing I take issue with in your post is your glossing over and trying to compare other things as equal to the fact that Obama champions abortion. Nothing you try to compare to the bloody Holocaust of abortion actually does compare in the least.

      Let me ask you two questions:1. Do you believe it would be a sin and that you would have blood on your hands to vote for someone who worked to make it legal to kill toddlers? 2. If your answer to number one is “yes” then how can it not be sin and you not have blood on your hands if you vote for someone who champions the “right” to butcher unborn babies by the millions every year?

      If you can honestly answer those two questions then we may have something to discuss. Otherwise, you are not being honest or moral in your position in the least.

      Anyone who votes for Obama has blood on their hands and it is completely and totally unacceptable and most assuredly sin for anyone, especially a Christian, to vote for him.

    6. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 20th, 2012 @ 10:39 pm

      Brian,

      Would you like me to deny my convictions before God? Mr. Obama is the most radically pro-abortion president in our history, and the recent DNC took things even further. This, sadly, is a man who four times voted against saving the lives of babies who survived abortion procedures. I do not believe any follower of Jesus can vote for a pro-abortion candidate running for any office, just as I believe it would have been wrong for a Christian to vote for a pro-slavery candidate in the 1800′s. It is an issue of blood guilt and nothing less.

      That does not mean the Republican candidate is acceptable either; that’s an another discussion entirely, but yes, you heard me correctly, and I’ve said the same thing for many years in terms of candidates with the blood of the unborn on their hands.

    7. Brian
      September 21st, 2012 @ 2:56 am

      Jonathan,

      You actually validated my point in declaring that, “George W. Bush was not perfect on his positions with Israel either.” I’m simply saying that they all were flawed at some point in dealing with Israel, but to label President Obama as Anti-Israel, is going a bit too far. You are wrong to say that I was implying that he singlehandedly provided the assistance to Israel, when I specifically said that the 3 billion dollars was “annual” military assistance to Israel. He did some things right, and he did some things wrong, just like George Bush, that’s all. I could have cited more things that both men did right and wrong, in my opinion, but I didn’t think that it was needed to convey my point.

      You said, Let me ask you two questions:1. Do you believe it would be a sin and that you would have blood on your hands to vote for someone who worked to make it legal to kill toddlers? 2. If your answer to number one is “yes” then how can it not be sin and you not have blood on your hands if you vote for someone who champions the “right” to butcher unborn babies by the millions every year?

      My answer is, “No.” So question 2 is irrelevant.

      Your question is flawed because this is not the “only” issue at stake in this election. Your narrow view regarding this one issue is not what this whole election is about for every American who will vote. If this is your single conviction that will determine who you will vote for, then I can respect that, but to believe that this is the only issue for everyone else is a bit shortsighted in your thinking.

      Question for you, do you believe that racism is a sin, and that anyone who endorses a man or his party, with the suppression of minorities, the poor and elderly is completely and totally unacceptable and most assuredly sin for anyone, especially a Christian?

    8. Brian
      September 21st, 2012 @ 2:59 am

      Dr. Brown,

      I stand with you in acknowledging that abortion is sin, but that is not the sole issue for many who will vote for President Obama, yet you are willing to judge all to hell who do so on this matter alone.

      In the same vein of thought, you voted for George Bush for his second term after it was discovered that we went into Iraq on false pretenses. I did not vote for him the second time for this very reason, thus I could not agree to continue an unjust war where many innocent people were murdered, not to mention 4,000 of our American soldiers. I did not want that innocent blood on my hands. Are all those who voted for him to continue the war destined to burn in the eternal fires of hell beside the Obama voters, or based upon your subjective reasoning, do they (you) get a free pass into heaven on that matter?

      Regarding this upcoming vote, it is as you have stated, we do need to have the discussion about the Republican candidate at hand.

      The theology of Mitt Romney has a broad history of racial suppression, something that he has refused to acknowledge as sin. Written in their sacred books stand a theology that all black people have been cursed.

      What say you on voting for a man who has embraced such a cult and has not denied this faith, and why would you think that this issue would be any less dire to a black person?

      Because you stated that you are not a Republican, and that you are willing to follow the truth wherever it may lead, please speak openly about Rick Santorum and the links that I posted.

      Do you agree that Rick Santorum is a racist, and all who endorse him cannot be Christian?

    9. Jonathan
      September 21st, 2012 @ 11:58 am

      Brian,

      While I would agree that there are different ways that previous presidents have been flawed when it comes to Israel, I don’t see it as any stretch to say that Obama is anti-Israel. He has been worse than any other president on Israel except for possibly Carter and I think Obama even outdoes him.

      Here are a couple links: http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2012/09/20/new-ad-implies-obama-is-cozy-with-muslim-brotherhood

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/sep/20/binyamin-netanyahu-gambles-on-mitt-romney

      As far as my two questions go, I was going to give you credit for being honest (while still being extremely wrong and quite shocking) in your answers to those questions.

      Then I saw your response to Dr. Brown and I can no longer give you credit for being honest.

      You told me that you could vote for a person who worked to make it legal to kill toddlers without blood being on your hands. Then you turned around and told Dr. Brown that you could not vote to re-elect George W Bush because blood would then be on your hands because of the war in Iraq.

      How in the world are you being consistently honest in your beliefs between those two positions?

      Someone could have (and I believe in fact did) support Hitler using the same type of logic that there is not only one issue at stake and a whole election can’t come down to one issue.

      I do not consider myself a single issue voter. I look for a number of qualifications in the candidates I vote for.

      But I do believe there are certain issues that disqualify a candidate for consideration regardless of how good that candidate is on other issues.

      Things that can disqualify a candidate could include any of the following: if they were a child molester, if they beat their wife, if they sought to murder toddlers, if they sought to murder the unborn. This is not an exhaustive list, but if even one of those things were true about a candidate, I could not vote for the candidate and neither could anyone else without it being sin. I don’t see how you could disagree with that. Could you explain (especially in light of your comments about not being able to vote to re-elect Bush)?

    10. Jonathan
      September 21st, 2012 @ 12:21 pm

      Also Brian, I believe we both agree that racism is wrong. But I would maintain that it does not compare to a vote that would cause you to have blood on your hands. Racism is a belief that is extremely wrong, but is there any proof that Santorum or Romney have governed in a racist manner? There is proof that Obama has governed in a way that has helped to kill the unborn.

    11. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 21st, 2012 @ 1:19 pm

      Brian, I addressed some of your concerns on the air today, so please take a listen to the first part of the first hour (Friday). Thanks for your candid posts — and I am NOT damning to hell those who differ with me. Blessings and grace to you!

    12. Brian
      September 21st, 2012 @ 10:09 pm

      Jonathan,

      It is quite obvious that you and I are worlds apart in this dialogue, especially from a theological standpoint. I will not continue going back and forth with you about which president is worse concerning Israel, as you have completely missed the entire point from my initial posting.

      If you believe President Obama to be an enemy of Israel, then so be it; however, when the day comes that this nation will ultimately turn its back on Israel, you will see what an Anti-Israel president will really look like.

      You said, ” I believe we both agree that racism is wrong.”

      Here lies the fundamental divide that stands between us. It would be wrong if I came to a rolling stop when leaving my neighborhood parking lot, but racism is SIN. It is utterly detestable in the sight of G-d, period!

      I’d point you to Numbers 12, where Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because he married an Ethiopian woman. Because of her racist heart, G-d struck her with leprosy. It wasn’t until deep-seated repentance entered in that G-d restored her whole again. What a direct revelation of judgment revealed towards “religious” people who walk with an Anti-African spirit. It is quite obvious that G-d and I have a different view of racism then you do.

      You also said, ” But I would maintain that it does not compare to a vote that would cause you to have blood on your hands.”

      Again, Jonathan, we would divide once again with your soft stance on the gravity of racism. “Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him” (1 John 3:15).

      The root of racism is hatred, and if you can’t discern that spirit that spews out of Rick Santorum’s mouth, wrapped in the theology of Mormonism, and drive behind voter suppression, then it is actually you who is either blind or dishonest, one. Only G-d knows.

      Shalom

    13. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 21st, 2012 @ 10:27 pm

      Brian,

      The comments of Rick Santorum concern me, and if he was running for the presidency, I would need to get a response from him about them. If he never gave indications of racism in the past and he apologized for his wrong statements, that would be sufficient for me. If he governed as a racist, I could not vote for him. But again, under no circumstances could I vote for a candidate who consistently governed as a pro-abortion leader, nor do I believe any Christian can do so (but I am not thereby damning them to hell). Again, pro-abortion leaders have the blood of the innocent on their hands, and according to the Word, that is a cause for national judgment and is high on the list of sins hated by God.

    14. Brian
      September 21st, 2012 @ 10:45 pm

      Mike,

      I listened to your program today, and I appreciate you clarifying yourself, and your stance. I initially liked Rick myself until the sentiments of his heart were exposed.

      Again, Mitt Romney’s theology and what he belives stands as a major roadblock for many, as well as this blatent voter suppression that is directed towards minorities, the elderly and disabled.

      While I respect your view on abortion, I equally don’t believe that any Christian can vote for a man who has refused to decounce his racist religion and theology. I am quite confident that G-d would not stand with him either.

    15. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 12:05 am

      Brian,

      I have no problem with a Christian not voting for either candidate, and I have been clear on that from day one. But since I do know where Mr. Obama stands, I will continue to urge believers not to vote for him while raising questions about Mr. Romney. I trust we’re clear on all this. I wrote this back in April: http://townhall.com/columnists/michaelbrown/2012/04/23/do_you_support_anyone_but_obama

    16. Jonathan
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 10:39 am

      Brian, I note that you refused to clarify how you could say blood would not be on your hands if you voted for someone promoting the killing of toddlers but blood would be on your hands if you voted to re-elect Bush. Why would you not clarify that false logic?

    17. Jonathan
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 10:42 am

      The arguments about racism do not compare. Did you give some proof of how Romney has or would govern in a racist manner? There is much proof we can give that Obama has and will govern in a manner to promote the killing of the unborn.

    18. Jonathan
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 10:46 am

      Also, I voted for Santorum in the primary. When I did so, I had not seen or heard about those videos. But at this point, Santorum is not the issue because Santorum in not a candidate for President and I won’t be voting for him. The issue now comes down to who we will be voting for in November. So let’s not distract with side issues. When we can determine a Biblically acceptable way to vote in November, then we could come back and discuss Santorum. Right now, he is not the issue.

    19. Jonathan
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 10:54 am

      I thought I would clarify why it is important that you give proof that Romney has or would govern in a racist manner as opposed to having a racist belief (which I would clarify is also a sin but has not been proved that he holds). Regardless, there is a difference between personal sin and a leader actively promoting and leading a country into sin. Every person sins. If you are looking for a candidate that does not sin, you will be voting for no one. You can take a person’s personal sin into account. But if you immediately disqualify any candidate who has personal sin in their lives, you will not be voting. But the defining point come in when a person governs in a way that leads the people he/she governs to sin. That is what Obama does through the promotion of abortion in this country. How has Romney promoted racism in his governing of Massachusetts and what specific proof do you have that Romney would lead the country in racism as president?

    20. Jonathan
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 12:00 pm

      I thought I would also clarify as Dr. Brown has that I am not condemning anyone to hell that votes for Obama. But I do believe that voting for Obama is sin and I do believe those who vote for Obama will have blood on their hands and will have to give account to God for why they voted for a man who promotes the killing of millions of innocent unborn babies. I will stand by that without apology.

    21. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 22nd, 2012 @ 11:00 pm

      Very important and relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_FrySY8oYM&sns=em. The president’s (and Democrats’) endorsement of same-sex “marriage” is another reason no follower of Jesus can vote for Mr. Obama.

    22. Jonathan
      September 24th, 2012 @ 7:37 am

      Dr. Brown, I agree wholehearedly with the sentiments that were expressed in the youtube video. I only wish that the massive butchering of the unborn would have been enough on its own merits to cause the change in position. If enough Godly people would have been convinced of that 4 years ago, we would not be on the verge of a massive funding increase in abortion due to Obamacare and we would not have Kagan and Sotomayor on the Supreme Court. The damage this President has done is massive and especially the Supreme Court picks will be around for a while regardless of who is now elected. I am glad this man came to a passionate realization over the sanctity of marriage which is also an issue where there can be no compromise for a Christian. I only wish his conviction not to vote for Obama had come 4 years earlier.

    23. Jonathan
      September 24th, 2012 @ 7:44 am

      I also note that those Christians who advocate voting for Obama disappear when facts and logic are presented to them. It is sad. Someone would say they could even vote for someone who championed the death of toddlers in their blind defense of Obama. Then when challenged, there is no response. I pray that there is a revival in this nation. But it has to start with the people of God because we are in some sorry shape. There is no way that a Christian should even have a fleeting thought of voting for a man who champions the wholesale butchering of the unborn and a radical redefining of marriage that is not even commonplace among the most hedonistic governments throughout history. We must get on our knees and repent for our apathy and our turning away from righteousness.

    24. Rachel
      September 24th, 2012 @ 2:04 pm

      I would like to encourage everyone to vote, specifically for Christians to vote for Romney. I am not saying to vote for Romney because he is the perfect Christian candidate, he isn’t, but because I believe that by NOT voting you are in effect still voting. What I mean is, by not voting, you are still impacting the outcome of the election. Indecision is still a decision. If you don’t decide something, by default you are making a decision. Now I realize that there could be Christians out there who truly believe they have a conviction from God not to vote, and I have to respect that if it is truly the case. However, for those that are merely abstaining for other reasons, please reconsider and realize that you are still going to impact the outcome of this election, perhaps actually increasing the odds of President Obama’s re-election, by not casting a vote.

    25. Brian
      September 24th, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

      Mike,

      I actually thought that we were finished with this dialogue, but you mentioned another reason not to vote for President Obama, citing homosexuality, so let me make myself clear to you as well. Your concerns about abortion and homosexuality are legitimate because they both are sin, but as I said, those are not the “only” issues or sins for everyone when deciding who they will vote for in this election.

      Notwithstanding, your blind eye regarding Mr. Romney (and this what this thread is about, not President Obama) and your soft stance in acknowledging his racist theology, and the voter suppression of which I mentioned several times, equates to nothing less than the exploitation of the poor, minorities and elderly. This is also sin. Mr. Romney, is the head representative of the GOP, and his indictment against 47% of Americans is a clear indication that he has no regard for the poor and needy.

      Your apparent indecisiveness in seeing if Mr. Romney is the apple of G-d’s eye, while he is exploiting the poor is quite baffling – if righteousness is your standard for deciding. Please note the following:

      “Look, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: She and her daughter had pride, FULLNESS OF FOOD, and abundance of idleness; NEITHER DID SHE STRENGTHEN THE HAND OF THE POOR AND NEEDY. And they were haughty and committed abomination before me; therefore I took them away as I saw fit” (Ezekiel 16:49-50).

      Again, your selective sins that you choose to highlight, while refusing to speak out against the others which weaken (not strengthen) the hand of the poor and needy makes one to wonder where your true motives really lie, seeing that you “have questions” about Romney, but can see clearly regarding President Obama.

      It is quite obvious and clear that no follower of Jesus can vote for Romney.

      Ultimately, we both are praying for G-d’s will and asking Him to put into office who He would have to lead this country for the next four years.

      “Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from G-d, and the authorities that exist are appointed by G-d” (Romans 13:1).

      “…The Most High G-d rules in the kingdom of men, and appoints over it whomever He chooses” (Daniel 5:21).

    26. Jonathan
      September 24th, 2012 @ 8:17 pm

      Brian, I had previously posted, “You told me that you could vote for a person who worked to make it legal to kill toddlers without blood being on your hands. Then you turned around and told Dr. Brown that you could not vote to re-elect George W Bush because blood would then be on your hands because of the war in Iraq.
      How in the world are you being consistently honest in your beliefs between those two positions?”

      It is very telling that it remains unanswered and ignored.

    27. Jonathan
      September 24th, 2012 @ 8:25 pm

      Romney has not indicated that he believes in racist theology. As a Christian, you should know that not all Christians agree on all parts of doctrine so why would you assume that Romney holds to racist theology found in Mormonism?

      As far as voter suppression, if you believe that voter ID laws are racist, then you may call me a racist as well. I support voter ID laws not for some nefarious purpose as you would like to imply. I support them because the integrity of the vote is worth preserving. ID’s are required for a number of different activities and there is no cry of racism when it is applied to those activities. Why is it all the sudden referred to as racism when it is required to vote?

      Here is a good Washington Times article on the subject http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/sep/13/voter-id-laws-preserve-democracy/?page=all

      So instead of throwing around baseless attacks on Romney’s thoughts and beliefs concerning his attitudes on race and the poor and the elderly, how about some objective facts?

      While you are at it, how about answering the post before this one?

    28. Jonathan
      September 24th, 2012 @ 8:29 pm

      You can also cut the rhetoric. No one said or implied that “Mr. Romney is the apple of G-d’s eye”. Both Dr. Brown and myself are in agreement that Romney is not a perfect candidate. I would say however that he would govern much much closer to Biblical principles than Obama would.

    29. Dr Michael L Brown
      September 24th, 2012 @ 9:37 pm

      Brian,

      I need to correct you here quite plainly. First, I have no blind eye when it comes to Romney. It is impossible for to you to say that if you have listened to my shows and read my articles; second, I have raised the question of whether Mormon theology is racist and whether Romney repudiated it; third, there are issues that disqualify a candidate from receiving a vote from me (and I would say from any believer), and high on that list are the slaughter of the unborn and the redefining of marriage. Obama has failed miserably on those two fronts and I will gladly discourage believers from voting from him, plain and simple. Will I encourage believers to vote for Romney? At this point no, but you will need to desist from posting false comments here about my position. It is beneath you and makes me question if there is more to the story here.

    30. Dan1el
      September 25th, 2012 @ 2:21 pm

      I’ve heard there will be no elections, at all (been hearing this from many unrelated sources).

      Since Russia has almost unequivocally (unless something has changed, and it has become 100% unequivocally) said, “war with Iran means war with Russia,” — AND China, since Russia and China are “buds” — not only will we be attacked by Ahmadinejad (which Iran is utterly prepared to do, since they have been preparing to do this for many, many years [my step-dad was a Muslim extremist, told my mom about 9/11 years before it happened, and has fled the country with my brother and sister so that they wouldn't grow up in a Christian home] preparing “sleeper cells” throughout every part of the U.S. that they wanted to), but it is very likely that Russia and China will attack, as well.

      Concerning this, a Police officer from St. Louis called in to a radio show, and was talking about how…
      i. He and his fellow local police officers have been training with the military “…prepare for an event that will require us to use air and ground forces, in conjunction with the military here.”
      ii. He has been training to protect the affluent areas of St. Louis specifically from the militia.
      iii. There have been some exercises he is referring to aired on national news — armored vehicles going through cities.
      iv. In the process of the interview, just about broke into tears, and said “… and America… this country is dead, Alex — it’s gone…”.

      I believe it.

      Short Phone Call from “Jim”, the St. Louis Police Officer @ 00:00:31-second mark:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmADIMIphYk

      Exercises The Officer Was Speaking About On Nat’l News:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-4gt-a4T8Y

      Interestingly enough, Dimitru Duduman said that there would be an uprising of the people against the gov’t (sort of a 2nd U.S. Revolution / Civil War), and it would be at that point that Russia would attack — and, both of these are set to occur/are “on the horizon”.

      Whether anyone agrees or not, I would just say (if you’re not already), please make sure you’re prepared to die — i.e.: to be judged.

      There’ve been more people saying they’re hearing from God that nuclear war is coming to America, but since it is not substantiated, I will not talk about it.

    31. Dan1el
      September 25th, 2012 @ 2:21 pm

      I.E.: that there MAY be a “state of emergency” declared, so that there will be no “elections”.

    32. Dan1el
      September 25th, 2012 @ 3:40 pm

      CORRECTION:
      I said,
      “Since Russia has almost unequivocally (unless something has changed, and it has become 100% unequivocally) said, “war with Iran means war with Russia,” — AND China, since Russia and China are “buds” — not only will we be attacked by ”

      I should’ve said,
      “IF we attack Iran (which is what we’re preparing to do), since Russia has almost unequivocally…”

    33. Ray
      September 27th, 2012 @ 6:23 am

      I can’t help but think “is it right that a minority would define a nation?”

      I believe the majority of people in the United States believe that God’s definition of marriage is right and that a nation will do well to maintain that within itself.

      And don’t we all know that abortion isn’t health care? Unless a living baby gets healthier by some medical treatment, how should it be called healthcare or be included along with it as if it were?

      But many people want to change the definition of things don’t they? Isn’t it because they are on the road to corruption? Isn’t that one of the signs?

      I believe one may vote for an evil man as long as the another one / ones running for the same office is / are more evil than they.

    34. Audio Messages Worth Your Time | hipandthigh
      October 1st, 2012 @ 7:31 am

      [...] A Debate with Prof. Doug Groothius on Whether Christians Can Vote for Romney and Dr. Brown’s Thoug… Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the first to like this. This entry was posted in Audio Links, Christians and Culture, Political stuff by fivepointer. Bookmark the permalink. [...]

    35. Shamarra
      October 3rd, 2012 @ 11:54 am

      I would like to say something in love, which hopefully will be regarded as such. I seldomly reply to shows or articles but felt so complelled to respond to this one. Brothers and Sisters in Christ, this dialogue indeed is a distraction from the focus on GOD’s Kingdom and the coming of Yeshua. If anything, this is another indication of the times we are living in, amongst many other things we are witnessing in these last days, not the end times (but I do believe that time is near).

      A caller had called in and asked a very good question about if a Mormon should become president, would this open the door for other religious leaders like Muslims, Hindus, etc…and it was not answered, it was redirected back to why we should vote for Romney. The guest made a very good point about “thinking longterm” in voting for the “right or best guy”. With that said, I think we have to think longterm about what it means to have a Mormon president and the spirit that this represents and doors this could open. Could we say that GOD would be for this? Absolutely not. Would he allow it? Possibly and a whole other story; HIS WILL be done, not mine or ours.

      People who plan to vote for Obama and who make these same points but refuse to point out Obama’s blatant disregard to the GOD he claims to worship should really do some thinking about voting for this man. Abortions are evil and not of GOD. Same-sex marriage redefines the Marriage that GOD created. Wreckless spending and not being “clear” where one stands on controversial issues is not wise and this is what this present government is doing.

      So, what about the 3rd and 4th options we do have as opposed to “lesser of two evils”? If the focus is on the importance of voting and exercising rights, there are other options. There is a 3rd party candidate running for president and there is always the write-in ballot option.

      As for me, I will exercise my right to vote and will be writing in J-E-S-U-S and continuing to pray, despite who takes office, that HE will have an outpouring of his HOLY Spirit in this world unlike ever before. Hopefully, Obama, Romney, and other officials will be filled with the HOLY Spirit and the times of the “gentiles will be fullfilled” so that Israel’s veil can be lifted and Yeshua can set up his reign here on earth!

      Please, brothers and sisters in Christ, we need to think about our stances when it comes to Politics and weigh our mission the Lord has commanded us to do. Jesus did make direct commandments in the WORD. None of them said to vote for any particular political candidate of any age or time. We were heeded to not tend to any matter concerning this age, but of the one to come. The work we should be doing should be for the one to come which includes our personal relationships with GOD, the works through the Spirit we do here and putting all of our trust into HIM.

      Thank you Dr. Brown for the opportunity to comment in this forum my opinions and to all brothers and sisters who have expressed their opinions and concerns!

      Peace and Blessings!

    36. The Mormon Factor | hipandthigh
      October 4th, 2012 @ 7:58 am

      [...] don’t forget the Michael Brown podcast with Doug Groothius who argues for why Christians should vote Romney. Share this:TwitterFacebookLike this:LikeBe the [...]

    37. A. Hampton
      October 12th, 2012 @ 7:57 pm

      vit·ri·ol (vtr-l, -l)
      n.
      1.
      a. See sulfuric acid.
      b. Any of various sulfates of metals, such as ferrous sulfate, zinc sulfate, or copper sulfate.
      2. Bitterly abusive feeling or expression.

    38. A. Hampton
      October 12th, 2012 @ 8:12 pm

      In Repsonse to R Dreamer. First ist would be more repectfull to refer to him as Prof. Groothius rather than “this guy”. Second, if you read the definition above you will find that the Profsors’ words could hardly be called vitriol. Third, saying that he lost credibility with one statement that he made does not work because he went on to explain what he ment by that in detail. Forth, if you disagree with him that is fine, but if you are going to say that a man came on this show and “spouts wrong info”, in other words lie, you should back your claims up. He backed up his. What say you? Finally, attacking someones character is often somthing one does when they cannot back up their own assertions. I’m wondering if this is what was happening when you implided that the Professor was not compasionate. I suggest that you listen to his reasoning again. He believes that the policies of the current administration will lead to poverty, crushing debt on our children, instability in the world, government sponsored abortion, and the government advancing the homosexual agenda. Perhaps he is wrong in his conclusions. But he does not seem to be off in his motives. In other words, “just the facts ma’am”.

    39. Jabez H.
      October 26th, 2012 @ 2:55 am

      The fear of God begins wisdom, what then completes its maturation and how does this apply to this debate?

      Does prophetic reality in a New Covenant sense apply to this debate?

      With the Islamic control of many nations, how then shall we vote?

    40. Sheila
      October 26th, 2012 @ 9:17 am

      I haven’t been following the conversation but would it be sacrilegious to write Jesus’ name in? I, for one, want no one but Him as our Lord.

      If all Christians were to write Him in, maybe they’d get a clue! You know, like, “Here’s your sign that there’re many of us in opposition to both candidates and with no where to turn, we voted our consciences and chose the “VERY BEST” candidate to rule our country!”

      That day is nearing, I can hear the footsteps of Messiah getting closer.

      Maranatha!

    41. Bo
      October 26th, 2012 @ 10:34 am

      Even if we are not totally endorsing a candidate’s views, it still seems like we are giving them limited “power of attorney” when we vote for them. I would rather not endorse or give them my freedom to choose for myself. This way if they make a decision that is against my conscience, I can still choose to comply or object and suffer the consequences, but I have not been a cosponsor of evil. Is there a place in scripture that tells us we must vote? To pray for those in autority, yes. To vote…

      If Y’shua’s kingdom is not of this world, why would his ambassadors vote in an election that is a foreign government? Do we have dual citizenship?

      2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God.

      Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

      1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

      1Jo 2:16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

      Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

      If we should not fight to deliver Messiah, should we vote to deliver ourselves? Has it ever worked?

      Shalom

    42. David Roberts
      October 26th, 2012 @ 11:27 pm

      As being an impartial observer from New Zealand, based on Paltalk, online news, forums and online radio, it seems to me, and correct me if I’m wrong, that some of the Christians who will vote for Obama this time are doing so for one reason, that for the previous election, friends and Christians warned them against voted for Obama, but they did it anyway, now if they don’t vote for him this time, that will mean, they have to admit to themselves that they were stupid the first time around and they have themselves to blame for Obama’s healthcare/abortion plan and the change of Marriage to two men or two women. And some people can not bear to look at themselves in the mirror and admit, ok, ok, I really was stupid and I never should of voted for Obama, so instead of biting the bullet of responsibility, they will vote for Obama again, just so they don’t have to take personal responsibility for what they did the first time around. Have you meet any people like that? I’ve heard many, read many online.

    43. Sheila
      October 27th, 2012 @ 10:08 am

      Bo,

      I believe we do have dual citizenship until such time as the Kingdom becomes the Lord’s. He said too, for us to “render to Caesar what is caesar’s and unto God what is God’s.” While He distinquished the two He didn’t say don’t pay your taxes. Therefore if I’m a tax paying citizen who has a say in the electoral college’s votes then I’m going to try to influence it for the good. Sad part is I don’t know any way I can vote for either one and I don’t know what to do other than what I thought of above. It’d be great if a wave for Jesus to rule would sweep this country!

      signed–”Conflicted in Carolina.”

    44. Dave
      October 27th, 2012 @ 8:38 pm

      Bo,

      I agree with what you’re saying. I’m pretty blown away by how many believer’s are guilt-tripping others into voting.

      While the analogy may not correlate all the way through, it’s interesting how even Jesus’ disciples were wanting him to bring political reform, for lack of a better term.

      I’m not as much saying politics aren’t important as much as I’m saying the weight the christian community gives to them, puts hope in them, etc. is far more than deserved as followers of Christ.

    45. Sheila
      October 28th, 2012 @ 6:31 pm

      Dave,

      Don’t kid us, really, American politics is the only game in town this year. As a follower of Jesus, I feel obligated to let my light shine and not put it under a bushel basket. I know who I’m voting for…

      Jesus is the only one I can vote for with a clear conscience. Let’s start a write-in movement and agree to have the Lord come and reign over us.

      I’ll call the local news people in my city and ask them if they’ve heard about the write-in movement for Messiah, Jesus? Or just tweet it and it’ll go around the world in no time at all!

    46. cosimo micelotta
      October 28th, 2012 @ 9:27 pm

      Dr.Michael Brown…I deeply respect you and your ministry!!But on this issue I truly disagree.You can’t have it both ways.What was Jesus’s most important commandment,Love your neighbor which would fly against Republican theology!!A good christian should mandate a policy which helps the poor period!!Now ask Mitt Romney if he favours asking the richest of the rich to help and what do you suppose his answer would be?Eventhough I do not support a pro abortion stance,it is very important to note that the individuals themselves have to take responsbilty for their OWN actions not unlike criminals who use guns in violent crimes,,,again Republican theology!!God Bless

    47. Bo
      October 29th, 2012 @ 11:33 am

      Cosimo,

      We know that YHWH did speak laws about feeding the poor. One was that everybody was to set aside a tenth of their produce every third and sixth year in a seven year cycle for this purpose. Another was that those with crops were not to harvest every last thing, but leave a little so that the poor could come in afterwards and obtain food through their own efforts. The second was left up to the discretion of the field owner how much he would leave behind.

      These laws were about feeding the poor, not about providing brand new housing or letting them mooch off of society. The poor that YHWH spoke of were virtually destitute. Why do we call those poor that have televisions, I phones, beer in the refrigerator and cigarettes to smoke?

      So 10 percent of one’s crop and animal incomes two years out of seven is about 3% of the rich’s as well as the not so rich’s income. This is as far as YHWH went with a mandatory tax to feed the poor and the rest was left up to the individual to provide for his relatives and the poor around him. Three per cent…that is all.

      I also know that both the “Old Testament” and the “New Testament” encourage us to help the poor with alms and to lend to them without interest, but it is not mandated. It is promised that we will be blessed in doing so voluntarily. For this to be mandated through taxation takes away the blessing. It also takes away from the help that the poor receive by giving big salaries to the government workers that distribute this non-Biblical forced alms.

      Taxation for entitlements is way more than 3% of our incomes. Tax money used in paying entitlements is over 60% of the budget and the average tax that above average income people pay in the final analysis is over 50%. 50% of 60% is 30%..ten times the Biblical mandate.

      You are correct we should take responsibility for our own actions. The poor should also take responsibility for theirs. They should stop receiving government assistance for abortions and welfare for babies out of wedlock. They should stop smoking and drinking. They should work for what they get. Being on the government dole is not taking responsibility for one’s own actions.

      Most of the very rich in our society provide jobs for hundreds if not thousands of poor people. A lot of the not so rich do the same. Some middle class do to. The more money we take from them to supposedly help the poor actually takes away jobs from the poor and gives them to government workers that do the distributing of the money taken.

      We do not help the poor when we make them dependent on handouts. We help them when we allow prosperous people to prosper so that they can provide jobs and voluntary alms.

      Loving our neighbor as ourselves is not about making long term unproductive drains on society. Loving our neighbor as ourselves is not about taking money from the rich. The Bible calls this stealing whether we take it from the poor or the rich. It is stealing whether we take it by gun point or by tax law…which actually does has the biggest guns behind them, by the way. It is not love for you to take my money and give it to someone else. Love is when you give your money to someone else. Also, love is not voting my money to go to you or anybody else.

      The “good christian” that you describe above is simply not a Biblical Christian. Your “good christian” is an accomplice to armed robbery and enslaves people on government plantations, so to speak.

      Shalom

    48. Bo
      October 29th, 2012 @ 11:49 am

      Cosimo,

      Thomas Jefferson wrote: “I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.”

      Shalom

    49. Dan1el
      October 29th, 2012 @ 3:11 pm

      Cosimo,

      Jesus also said “to him who has more will be given and to him who does not have, even what he thinks will be taken away” — He never taught “entitlement”; that is Communist propaganda, and Marx was a satanist (not a Christian) and his values were satanic…

      “Thus Heaven I’ve forfeited,
      I know it full well.
      My soul, once true to God,
      Is chosen for Hell.” – Karl Marx, “Pale Maiden”

      This is why Communism has been abandoned by China () — it is worthless. It served only as a stepping stone bridging a gap between a world dreamt of and a past world: Communism was only a temporary “solution”, to embroil the world in a dialectical struggle in order to control the world in that way for a while (by controlling the way it thinks about life), distracting the people by “dividing the house against itself” (that is what the plan always is: “oh, it’s the Communists! the Muslims! etc.,”) so that it would not be able to help but fall.
      Jesus did NOT teach entitlement or redistribution of wealth, except the willing participation of HIS DISCIPLES to other DISCIPLES — only WORTHY widows (who were full of good works, and had washed the feet of the saints) were to receive money; but, the money of the saints is NOT to go to promote sin.

    50. Bo
      October 29th, 2012 @ 3:24 pm

      Dan1el,

      Well said.

      Shalom

    51. Cosimo
      October 29th, 2012 @ 6:36 pm

      Wow … From loving your neighbour to Karl Marx ..a little bit of a stretch don’t u think.
      That’s the problem with politics.At the end of the day do you really think that there will be less abortions, less violence for whoever wins?I think not !! Religion should stay away from the political arena and do what they do best.Teach the word of god!!As Dr. Brown says.. We live in a broken world.Look around you..

    52. Dan1el
      October 29th, 2012 @ 7:37 pm

      Communism was/is satanic, and destructive: it was “used” NOT because it benefitted society’s “peons”, but it served the rulers’ aforementioned purposes.

    53. Bo
      October 30th, 2012 @ 11:12 am

      Cosimo,

      Loving your neighbor does not include voting that his money be taken by tax law and distributed to someone else. If you would not like it if others voted your money away from you, then do not vote our money away from us. Stealing is stealing no matter what you might want to call it. Karl Marx advocated stealing to the max…as long as you didn’t steal from him. Taxation that redistributes wealth is armed robbery.

      Shalom

    54. Dave
      October 30th, 2012 @ 3:05 pm

      Hey Sheila,

      Sorry, I’m not sure I understand your response. Either way, we can disagree. I feel far too much weight is put into politics in the christian community…that’s just my opinion.

    55. cosimo
      October 30th, 2012 @ 10:31 pm

      Bo,

      All taxation redistributes wealth… whether it goes to health,education,or military or whatever.So I don’t really understand your position.
      The point that I’m trying to make is that Dr. Brown should not be wading into politics,by either endorsing nor refuting any candidate.

    56. Bo
      October 30th, 2012 @ 10:43 pm

      Cosimo,

      No some taxation provides roadways and defense of our population and reimbursement for public servants and elected officials. Anything beyond this is stealing and giving the loot to those that do not provide us with a service. The Bible does not allow for mandatory helping the poor above about 3% of everyone’s farm income. The rest of the help is to come from voluntary donations and giving the poor the opportunity to work for food.

      Shalom

    57. David Roberts
      October 31st, 2012 @ 1:21 am

      @Bo, my solution to the problem of the poor suffering, which the liberals use to justify mandates and high taxes is:
      Instead of taking people’s money to fund government programs, the government demands that everyone gives a certain percentage of their money to the charity/charities of their choice – taxfree.
      Charities give you far more bang for your buck and can run on extremely low overheads. It would mean Christians could give to Christian charities without paying for abortion, etc.

    58. David Roberts
      October 31st, 2012 @ 1:24 am

      I’m aware there’s essentially zero chance of this happening though. But it would guarantee that the poor get taken care of. And if charities didn’t perform well, people could defund them and put money into other charities, you can’t defund the IRS and put your money elsewhere. Competition makes things work well, but there’s no competition for government programs.

    59. Bo
      October 31st, 2012 @ 9:04 am

      David,

      It would still be a mandate instead of being voluntary. It would be a better type of stealing, but still theft. Have you looked into history to see what percentage of the population was poor compared to today? Have the government programs and redistribution helped or harmed the situation? The government can only change who to poor are and reduce the money available to actually help them.

      Shalom

    60. Bo
      November 1st, 2012 @ 10:16 am

      I heard a statistic yesterday by a radio talk show host: An average of about $60,000 is used in helping each welfare recipient. Why is it that it takes more money to help the poor than the average American income? ($46,000)

      According to:
      (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_States) a 6 person family is at the poverty threshold if their total income is $30,970. Most families do not even have 6 members.

      Why does it take almost double that to help them? We could help twice as many if we just sent all the people with the lowest tax returns $30,0000 every year. We wouldn’t have to print up literature or food stamp vouchers or train government workers or pay near as many or, or , or.

      By stealing from the rich and middle class, the effective rate of helping the poor is reduced quite significantly. If government programs work to decrease poverty why is there still the same percentage of poor families as there was 40 years ago? Answer: Government taxation and redistribution does not help to reduce poverty. It is a big waste, a fallacy and stealing…that is all.

      Shalom

    61. Bo
      November 2nd, 2012 @ 12:48 pm

      Cosimo,

      I am wondering what you do with this verse. How does it represent the true Christian stance in your value system?

      2Th 3:10 For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
      11 For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
      12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
      13 But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
      14 And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.

      It should be a shame for people that do not work to take money from others that do work. There is a good reason why YHWH instituted His idea of letting the poor glean in the fields. So that the poor didn’t end up as freeloaders.

      Please do not vote for anyone that will increase welfare and other forms of non-Biblical help for the poor. Please reconsider your form of social justice in light of true scriptural justice that does not allow for stealing and redistribution.

      Shalom

    62. Cosimo
      November 2nd, 2012 @ 6:47 pm

      Bo,
      Even though I’m not a biblical scholar …Do you think that permanently disabled persons in biblical times should not
      be allowed to eat?Considering they were not able to work?Simply put this passage would apply to people that are lazy or people that feel entitled .

    63. Bo
      November 3rd, 2012 @ 9:36 pm

      Cosimo,

      Most of welfare goes to the latter of your categories. Permanently disabled and elderly people need our help if their families are unable to care for them. Those disabled in fighting for their country also “deserve” assistance.

      I appreciate the hearts of liberals/democrats, but they seem to be short sighted or deluded in what really helps people or our society. Taking from others to help someone is stealing. The government, and thus we, are responsible for disabled war veterans, but our social welfare programs only makes men into slaves and cowards.

      Maybe the deadbeat dads would get a clue if we tracked them down and forced them to provide for their children. That would be much better than making the rest of us pay for for their children’s upbringing. Maybe welfare babies would be less common if their mothers knew that they would have to be responsible for their food and clothing, instead of having an easy handout from the redistribution specialists.

      Abortion, and us paying for it, does not produce responsible people either. You spoke of taking responsibility for our actions, but your philosophy produces irresponsibility. We need to allow people to learn the lesson the hard way if they will not listen to wisdom. Bailouts almost never fix the problem nor do they allow economic and moral lessons to be learned.

      We do not owe the poor an easy or even an easier life. We owe YHWH to be His instruments in bringing physical and spiritual assistance to those that are disadvantaged. This is not produced by stealing and redistribution. Much better is the personal touch that is accompanied by real love that brings the gospel and the physical help. When we divorce the spiritual help from the physical we keep many in darkness.

      Government mandate has muzzled us from proclaiming the truth in a way that only personal alms can do.

      Shalom

    64. Bo
      November 3rd, 2012 @ 10:52 pm

      “A government that robs Peter to pay Paul can always depend on the support of Paul.”
      -George Bernard Shaw

      “The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people’s money.”
      -Margaret Thatcher

      “A people that values its privileges above its principles soon loses both. ”
      -Dwight Eisenhower

      “Character cannot be developed in ease and quiet. Only through experience of trial and suffering can the soul be strengthened, ambition inspired, and success achieved.”
      -Hellen Keller

      “Knowing what’s right doesn’t mean much unless you do what’s right.”
      -Theodore Roosevelt

      None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free.
      -Goethe

      “Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people.”
      -Theodore Roosevelt

      Shalom

    65. Bo
      November 3rd, 2012 @ 11:00 pm

      Cosimo,

      Try this on for size:
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-20168393

      Shalom

    66. Cosimo
      November 4th, 2012 @ 1:48 pm

      Bo,
      You make some excellent points and I guess you feel that America is on the path of socialism.I do not agree.If you do not agree with redistribution of wealth as i do,then you should not agree with the 3 billion dollars we give to Israel every year!And if Obama did not bailout the auto sector.. how many jobs were saved… Another Republican president= more defense,more fat cats on Wall Street and more strife for the middle class.

    67. Dan1el
      November 4th, 2012 @ 2:06 pm

      Cosimo,
      “Bail out”!?
      1. “Bail outs” wouldn’t have ever even been NECESSITATED without the so-called “Federal Bank”‘s hand. “The Fed”‘s system is what created the market crash. The only time the United States EVER balanced its books was under President Andrew Jackson who (in his generation) vetoed the bank. President Andrew Jackson distributed a surplus in his day (the only surplus we’ve ever had).
      No “central bank” = no problem.
      Fed/central bank = problem.

      2. The taxpayers were footed with the bill.

      3. If I’m not mistaken, trillions of dollars are “missing” (unaccounted for) in these bailouts — this means that someone got very very very rich off of the “bailouts”.

    68. Cosimo
      November 4th, 2012 @ 6:48 pm

      Daniel,
      Ok under Bush banking system was collapsing.. No bailout
      meant no economy ..and under bush housing market collapsed..no bailout meant no mortgages .. Under bush auto sector collapsed … No bailout millions of jobs would have been lost!!There’s a big difference between stimulus spending and bailouts .. The government made there money back with the bailouts .As well an audit provided to congress only showed a small percentage of waste with the stimulus.We have a very short memory!!

    69. Dan1el
      November 4th, 2012 @ 7:16 pm

      Cosimo,
      The Bank IS the government!

      “Give me control of a nation’s money supply, and I care not who makes its laws.” M.A. Rothschild

      “BBC Interview: “Goldman Sachs rules the world”"
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9ucTmcPZQE

      Thanks for the opportunity for me to share the truth, though knowing that you are probably not going to be swayed by these facts.

    70. Dan1el
      November 4th, 2012 @ 7:34 pm

      Guess who was among the largest contributors to Obama.
      Answer: Goldman Sachs

      “Top Obama Contributors 2008″
      https://www.opensecrets.org/pres08/contrib.php?cid=N00009638

      Guess who is the top contributor of Romney.
      Answer: Goldman Sachs

      “Top Contributors To Mitt Romney in 2012″
      http://www.opensecrets.org/pres12/contrib.php?id=N00000286

      Obama/Romney Contributor Article
      Top contributors in 2012 US presidential poll campaign
      http://www.nation.com.pk/pakistan-news-newspaper-daily-english-online/international/04-Nov-2012/top-contributors-in-2012-us-presidential-poll-campaign

      Former Goldman Sachs employees ruling Italy and Greece.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CHwF_vbYLuI

      I guess Goldman Sachs IS one of the “rulers of the world” (they rule the governments of the world), in a sense, huh?

      The maxim has proven true:
      “Give me control of a nations’ money supply, and I care not who makes its laws.”

      Why doesn’t the banker (Rothschild) care? Because he means that he will control the laws (himself) by controlling the men who make the laws (by controlling the money, they have “sway” over the politicians).

    71. Bo
      November 4th, 2012 @ 7:37 pm

      Cosimo,

      I do not pretend to be knowledgeable enough to know how much money we should use to help Israel in securing the Middle East. It is a matter of national and world security. I do know that the Bible, of which you say you are not a scholar, definitely says that YHWH will bless whoever blesses Israel and curse whoever curses Israel.

      I also know that the Bible forbids being accomplices to murder and theft, even if that murder and theft is called helping women and the poor. Voting for candidates that support the above actions is joining a crowd to do evil.

      Ex 23:2 Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil; neither shalt thou speak in a cause to decline after many to wrest judgment:

      We do not know what would have happened to the auto sector without a bailout. When companies loose their ability to compete in an open market, they are usually sold and reorganized into a competitive business. Yes some jobs are lost for the short term, but market efficiency is gained and taxpayers do not have their money stolen and redistributed. The new company is funded voluntarily by private investors instead of us being made to invest. Private enterprise is almost always extremely more efficient than government management. In the final analysis, the economy, the taxpayers, and the workers end up in a better predicament.

      Did you ever wonder Why Obama gave so many hundreds of billions to the big bankers instead of to the poor people that owed mortgage payments to the big banks. Obama has helped the rich more than any president in history. Of course he could have helped the entire economy if he would have just given each person in America their small potion of the bailout. The banks would have still gotten their money and the poor would owe less on their homes. What we ended up with is the poor still owing the same amount and the big bankers pocketing huge profits. All this being said, it is still stealing for him to take our money and give it to someone else. It doesn’t matter if he gives it to the poor or to the big wigs that financed his campaign, it is still wrong. It is just more outrageous for him to bailout the rich…especially since he is so animate about his plan not doing this and accuses the Republicans of doing it.

      Providing incentive for us (especially the more well to do) to invest our money into our declining economy will always work better than taking our money and filtering it through many bureaucracies that take their undue share and invest it for us.

      Every time the government touches our money it looses efficiency. How many government hands does it go through? Too many. Is it any wonder that social security taxes are such a huge amount more than they were originally? (They were 1% for employee and employer originally and now are over 6% for each.) And the payouts do not even keep up with inflation. We pay more and the retirees get less. Where does the rest go? To the bureaucracies and to inefficiency. Cased closed.

      “We can guarantee cash benefits as far out and at whatever size you like, but we cannot guarantee their purchasing power.” – Alan Greenspan (Chairman of the Federal Reserve US Central Bank), appearing before the Senate Banking Committee on February 15, 2005, in response to Democratic Senator Jack Reed of Rhode Island on the topic of funding Social Security.

      Shalom

    72. Dan1el
      November 4th, 2012 @ 7:58 pm

      Interestingly enough, Iceland refused to bail out their banks are doing just fine — this means that the “bank failure” was a ruse to steal peoples’ money! NOTHING bad would occur from allowing these banks to fail!

      http://www.infowars.com/top-economists-iceland-did-it-right-and-everyone-else-is-doing-it-wrong/

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