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  • Dr. Brown Dialogues with a Pro-Gay Minister and then Talks about the Life-Changing Power of the Gospel

    July 18, 2012 | 49 Comments

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    Dr. Brown will dialogue with Rev. Gerald Palmer, founder and director of Word 4 The Soul Ministries, described as “an urban ministry created to win souls for Christ by breaking down the barriers of homophobia, poverty, blame, shame and pain.” Dr. Brown will also take your calls and talk about the life-changing power of the gospel.

     

    Hour 1:

     

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus prayed to the Father and said, “Sanctify them through Your truth; Your word is truth.” Psalm 119 tells us that God’s word is a lamp unto our feet, and a light unto our path. We stray from the Word and it is a path of death, destruction, and darkness.

    Hour 2:

     

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Friends, we stray from the clear statements of a loving God made in His holy word, and we stray to our own destruction and destruction of those who look to us and listen to us!

     

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    Answers to Your Toughest Questions About Homosexuality

     

    A Queer Thing Happened to America by Dr. Brown:  A Queer Thing Happened to America chronicles the amazing transformation of America over the last forty years, literally, from Stonewall Inn to the White House, and addresses the question head-on: Is there really a gay agenda, or is it a fiction of the religious right? Written in a lively and compelling style, but backed with massive research and extensive interaction with the GLBT community, this forthright and yet compassionate book looks at the extraordinary impact gay activism has had on American society.

    Get Involved! Find out how you can make a difference in YOUR community!

    Homosexuality, The Church, & Society [6 DVD Set] with Dr. Brown:  This could be the most important resource ever produced by this ministry! More than eight hours of eye-opening, carefully-documented, shocking truth that cannot be ignored.

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    Comments

    49 Responses to “Dr. Brown Dialogues with a Pro-Gay Minister and then Talks about the Life-Changing Power of the Gospel”

    1. Jared
      July 18th, 2012 @ 1:37 pm

      What was the name of the man who shared his testimony on today’s program? Stephen …?

    2. mbabbitt
      July 18th, 2012 @ 3:32 pm

      Wow. This dialoge was stunning. The Reverand’s denial of the plain language and clear messages of the Bible around homosexual practice seems in keeping with Postmodernism and Deconstructionism: this Reverend wants to read into/draw out of the Bible his own image.- the words of the Bible can mean whatever he wants them to mean. This living Bible is like the living Constitution. Choose what you want it to say and, voila, it does. Ignore what it clearly states as being contrary to (what he conceives as) Love. For example, you see someone enjoying a drive in their new car but they are heading towards a cliff; in the Reverend’s mind to warn them of their impending doom would be unloving and hateful when the very opposite is true.

    3. Ken
      July 18th, 2012 @ 4:01 pm

      Really?.. has the Gospel turned into a politically correct Gospel…come on people stop being a Man pleaser and turn back to your first love!!! eternal separation from G_d and all that it good is a long time my friends Think about it..

      Peace love and joy

    4. Nick
      July 18th, 2012 @ 5:18 pm

      I love the “Jesus never said anything about homosexuality” argument. Really? Did John Chapter 1 not make it perfectly clear that He IS the living breathing Word of God? Well, what’s the Word of God if not the Torah?!

      This is why we need to lead people away from thinking God changed His mind on the commandments He gave, or those were just for certain people. Faith is a lazy “feel-good” feeling today more than what it should be.

    5. Michael B Babbitt
      July 18th, 2012 @ 6:04 pm

      Even the word “homophobia” has been so highly distorted. Instead of using it in its more denotative meaning, as a irrational fear of homosexuals, it has become so full of negative, cultural connotations that now it means any disagreement with the gay lifestyle. It’s a dishonest misuse of a word as it still suggests an irrational fear, implying a state of mind akin to form of mental illness. Thus any debate is curtailed since why would anyone want to waste their time arguing with a mentally/emotionally disturbed person. It’s a great defense – just not an honest one. Today our culture has reached the point that we do not require a well thought out apologetics from the gay community; instead we have intolerance and often vicious name calling and intimidation upon those who disagree. People who disagree have to stay in the proverbial closet or face the holy wrath of the gay supporting commmunity.

    6. Michael B Babbitt
      July 18th, 2012 @ 6:18 pm

      By the way, as a young male I was rather awkward and nerdy and my brother and I used to be called all of the gay bashing terms we are all too familiar with. We even had bottles thrown at us while we walked. Interestingly, I often found myself living in gay towns around the country even though I was not gay and felt a comaraderie with them as I knew the pain of being bullied. But now the bullied are morphing into the bullying. Yes, the Christian community has a lot to answer for due to its meanness as the leaders way too often did not speak out against such treatment. But to have it go in the other direction, where people and organizations are blacklisted if they are not in full agreement with the goals of the gay activists is not right either. Let’s stop bullying each other.

    7. Fred Rochester
      July 18th, 2012 @ 7:21 pm

      The differences of holiness and sin is enough to understand this broadcast. These two things cannot be further from each other.

    8. Michael B Babbitt
      July 18th, 2012 @ 8:14 pm

      I should also add that my mostly secular Jewish family on Long Island was harassed intensely by our neighbors for about 2 straight years when I was in my early teens. We were surrounded by German and Irish Catholic families who rallied together to bully our family. We were called Jew bas…ds, Jew bagels, told to go back where we belong, and we had to call the police several times when over 20 kids on bicycles screamed epithets at us. Recently, one of the harassing kids apologized to my sister saying her drunk Irish father egged them on. (At one point the father hit my dad in the head with a bat, just missing killing him according to the doctor.)

      My brother and I were bullied in school almost everyday and although I knew some decent kids, the ugly side of humanity dug deep in both of our hearts. We were both emotionally scarred by this bullying. It was hard for me to come to Yeshua/Jesus considering my early experience with Christians. So I know bullying and the meanness of so-called Christians. But it took encounters with great Christians to show me the truth of Christ and I feel blessed to have wanted the Truth so much as to be able to overcome such a repulsion to the Christianity I grew up with.

    9. Ken
      July 18th, 2012 @ 8:30 pm

      Michael B Babbitt, I assure you anyone who treated you like that, did not know Christ..or follow him
      if they claim to be Christians it was in name only
      I praise the Lord he sent real Christians to you to show you the real meaning of who he is..

    10. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 18th, 2012 @ 11:17 pm

      Hmay, may I ask you what you thought of Rev. Palmer’s statement that, if we took the Bible at face value (“literally”), it would be against homosexual practice? Wouldn’t that make the Bible a “heterosexist” book?

    11. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 18th, 2012 @ 11:18 pm

      To everyone who listened to today’s show, to demonstrate my point that the Bible was MISUSED to justify slavery and the oppression of women whereas it is PROPERLY USED to say that homosexual practice is sin, please watch this video: http://coalitionofconscience.askdrbrown.org/resources/2008_lecture_monday.html.

    12. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:10 am

      R Palmer obviously hasn’t read where Paul tells Timothy “…the Law was made for the unrighteous, ungodly, profane…” and then goes on to LIST the sins the LAW OF MOSES condemns, when he finally gets around to “homosexuals” – in context, this is a reiteration of the Moral Law of the Law of Moses: not a singular person with R Palmer’s point of view can respond biblically (coherently, at least) to this, without having to either repent of their disbelief or reject the authority of Scripture.

      It was 100% obvious he was contorting his views of Scripture based on his carnal compassion (not led by the Spirit) for the GLBT community – thus, he was doing a DISSERVICE both to them, and more importantly to the church, where he is actively working for satan in the destruction of the moral foundation they WOULD have stood upon had they not heard Palmer’s perverted interpretations of Scripture.

    13. Boris
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:11 am

      The fact that the Bible can be used, has been used, and continues to be used to justify injustice, intolerance and atrocities, argues against the claim that the Bible is the Word of God. If God was omniscient he would have for seen that the Bible would have been constantly misunderstood, misinterpreted and misappropriated not to mention the fact that His plan of salvation it offered was going to be a massive failure. Therefore we must assume all of the teachings of the Bible are of human origin. Nothing could prove this any more clearly than the Bible’s “teachings” about homosexuality. How pathetic it is that we have modern humans arguing over what some ancient backward superstitious animal sacrificing primitives thought about homosexuality.

    14. Scott Lane
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:18 am

      I would like to add just a side note of context to the pro-gay minister’s perspective. I also am a social work and have a Master’s degree in that profession. Many professions have cultures that are attached to and specific to them. During my time in graduate school I came to realize that social work as a profession is VERY VERY liberal in terms of “social”/moral issues. The National Association of Social Work (NASW)is a huge supporter of the homosexual movement. Throughout my time in grad school there was a sustained pressure to accept and advocate for homosexuality and I encountered animosity from my peers because I didn’t readily accept the homosexual agenda.I said that to say, Christians shouldn’t bend or redefine Biblical standards to cater to non-Christian standards/values in any context. As a fellow social worker I love what I do in terms of my profession but I whole-heartedly reject the value system that is indoctrinated into social workers as they complete their education. As Christians we simply must adhere to a balance of conviction and compassion. It is not up to us to re-write the Bible, it is our role to believe and live what it says even when doing so is not considered socially appropriate or doesnt “sinc up” with value systems we have inherited from the culture around us. Thanks

    15. Nakdimon
      July 19th, 2012 @ 3:32 am

      What I cannot wrap my head around is the fact that gay activists will insist that Romans 1 is talking in proper context about Temple worship. Are they actually supposing we are to believe that when Paul says that men and women having sex with the same gender is only “unnatural” when it is in the context of Temple worship? How is homosexuality surrounding Temple worship “unnatural” and yet homosexuality outside of Temple worship is NOT “unnatural”? Can someone explain that to me, because somehow I just dont get it.

    16. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:04 am

      I was in KC not too long ago (staying at “The Way Fellowship”) – while I was there, I reached out to a certain young homosexual man. He wasn’t allowed to stay at the shelter any longer, because of his violent behavior and involvement in black magick occultism; but, one night, he came over looking for food and another person turned him away.
      When I heard about it, I quickly got some food, and ran down the street, calling out his name – he needed help: he needed to be dealt with uncompromisingly/firmly; but he also needed to know that there were people who truly cared for him and were concerned for his well-being.

      After I finally caught up with him (we met half-way), we began talking; I told him, “Listen very closely: you need to repent. We love you – all of us; and God loves you very much – but you, like all other people, need to make a decision, and repent”.
      “I already tried, and I failed.”
      “You think you’re the only one? I struggle, we all struggle to live holy lives – YOU GET BACK UP AND TRY AGAIN! This is hell you’re dealing with, if you or I don’t repent and get this right!”
      “I already know I’m already going to hell.” he said with defeated resignation.

      He decided he would be staying with his boyfriend, even if they did have a lot of “problems”, as he said; I kept warning him over and over, and urging him to turn to God’s love, but, that night, he went off into the city.

      I felt so sad for that young man (it could’ve been me!) that I started praying for him (honestly, more often than not, I prayed only for myself – I know that’s bad).
      To my surprise (because the spirit on this young man was so lost; so lawless), he came back to the ministry the next day, with a serious look on his face,

      “I was thinking about what you said last night, man – and you’re right: I’m gonna try again.”

      I could tell by the look of seriousness mingled with a faint joy that he wasn’t playing games – other people who “knew” him better couldn’t believe he was serious; but I knew – and I was so happy for him!

      That’s the way you deal with sinners – with FIRMNESS, and in LOVE – and you turn their feet back onto the path that leads to eternal life; OFF of the path that leads to damnation; you DON’T affirm them in their sin if you care!
      Many of these people have a defeated/compromised mindset; what they NEED is someone who will understand that, love them where they’re at, and firmly shift them back to that path.
      We all need to be that uncompromising pillar of Truth – NO ONE ELSE IS DOING IT FOR THEM! Once a sinner sees that someone is taking these things of God seriously, but also dealing with them in genuine concern, they are seeing the Word of God in action with their eyes, and they are granted grace to repent through faith in the Word (preached through both actions and words).

    17. Michael B Babbitt
      July 19th, 2012 @ 7:32 am

      Great story, Daniel. Thanks for sharing it.

    18. HaMetumtam
      July 19th, 2012 @ 9:22 am

      I dont put any weight at all in the arguments that says “God made me this way”. This is what A.W Tozer was talking about with his short writing on the new cross and the old cross. Biblical Christianity is not self improvement on the old man we are told to take up our old cross and DIE. We are crucified with Christ and the power which raised Him also raises us and we walk in the newness of life putting to death the deeds of the flesh by the Spirit.

      Rev Palmer is preaching the new cross which accept people where they are and tries to improve them…The old cross was for one purpose and one purpose only…to Kill.

      Those who want to keep their life will run to this man…Those who want to follow Christ will die and be raised with Him.

      “God made me this way”….So what.. we all have to die to self if we want to follow Christ.

    19. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:13 pm

      Hmay,
      Utterly false – Paul clearly condemns homosexuality as a sin citing the authority of the Law of Moses; and says homosexuals are “ungodly, profane, unrighteous” [1 Ti 1:9].

      It doesn’t get clearer.

    20. matt
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:31 pm

      Pretty much knew how his argument would go as soon as I heard two words. “Social Worker”

    21. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:53 pm

      Hmay, there’s not a positive syllable in the Bible about homosexuality, and there’s not a single sexual reference in the account between David and Jonathan. (Remember: David was a flaming heterosexual and got into trouble because of his heterosexual lusts.)

      As for telling people their sins, we call everyone, without discrimination, to repent and believe. That’s the gospel. Jesus saves us from our sins!

    22. mbabbitt
      July 19th, 2012 @ 1:17 pm

      Doesn’t the call to repent, which seems to be a major theme in the New Testament, if not the major theme, imply judgment? John, Jesus, Paul, Peter, et al all call to repent. Repent from what – God pleasing behavior? I think not. Then there must be God displeasing behavior. This equating of love with acceptance today is a modern invention expressing immaturity and intellectual decline. No responsible and loving parent or friend would let their beloved child or friend go to their destruction without a valient effort to get them to change their behavior. It is judgmental and discriminatory because in this case it comes from love and a knowledge of the effects of certain behaviors. Do people who consider themselves Christian sometimes judge from an unholy place and sow seeds of hatred and pain? For sure. But to then judge all judgment as evil is to miss the mark and radically distort the Gospel (and to violate mere common sense). There’s an old saying about babies and bathwater somewhere around in my memory.

    23. ron david metcalf
      July 19th, 2012 @ 2:32 pm

      Don’t forget that ‘the weapons of our warfare are not carnal…’ The abortion/homosexual battle is primarily a spiritual one that cannot be defined by sympathy for the sinner over GOD’s judgment for the sin. This is primarily for the choir; the secular debate has managed to dismiss demonology altogether (though Hollywood is increasingly turning to it for its god of Mammon).
      In Him, Ron M.

    24. Naomi
      July 19th, 2012 @ 2:56 pm

      In listening to Dr. Brown’s debate with Harry Knox and having just finished listening to this program, it seems to me that while there are some attempts by “pro-gay Christian” proponents to have the Bible say that a non-heterosexual orientation is not sin, the foundation of their “theology” seems to be an emotional response to hurting (gay) people. I am so glad this conversation is taking place for two reasons – I was involved in an illicit heterosexual relationship many years ago and it was God’s Word and what it said about fornication – yes, that exact word – that brought me to my senses and my knees. Sin needs to be identified and called what it is in order for there to be repentance, and if I change my theology so as not to “offend” someone, I am withholding life changing information. The other reason is that it is causing me to take a long look at my attitude toward the gay community – not to excuse the behaviour, but to seek how God is asking me to respond to those who are broken and hurting beyond my comfort zone. God help us all to hear His voice as this issue refuses to go back in the closet!

    25. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:08 pm

      Hmay,
      Jesus was put to death for telling the Truth and offending people – I want to be like Jesus; if you don’t want to offend people by speaking the Truth in love, I think you need to pray about why you don’t want to act like Jesus. Jesus’s “love and compassion” offended people and got Him killed – He is the Example.

    26. Fred Rochester
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:10 pm

      @ Hmay…..”My thoughts on that comment are simple. The Bible is here for individuals to interpret. There are plenty of passages that do put homosexuality in a positive light.”

      The Bible clearly states in 2 Peter 1:20…”knowing this first, that no prophesy of Scripture is of any private interpretation, for prophesy never came by the will of man, but HOLY men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.”

      The Bible is already interpreted. Where the Scriptures is plain and clear is evidence of God’s original intent and purpose. Scripture is revealed, never interpreted.

      Therefore, when Leviticus 18:22 states that “Man shall not lie with man as with a woman….it is an abomination…”

      What is there to interpret?

      Paul said in Romans 7:7 and verse 12…”I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet…Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.”

      So when you say that “There are plenty of passages that do put homosexuality in a positive light,” please tell us how God views homosexuality in a “positive light” when He stated clearly that it is “an abomination?”

      Malachi 3:6 says, “I am the Lord, I change not.” So if God cannot change, He cannot condemn sin and then excuse sin. That’s a contradiction of epic proportions and then Jesus died for nothing, since He came to die for our sins.

    27. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:33 pm

      Hmay, may God bless you with His love and kindness and truth, and I appreciate you not wanting to be combative. I hope you can appreciate it takes courage to confront sin as well, especially when the whole society is against you when you do.

    28. Ken
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:58 pm

      I think john MacArthur said it best– Evangelism or personal witnessing that does not confront people with their utter sinfulness and helplessness is not faithful to the gospel of Jesus Christ, no matter how much His name and His Word may be invoked. A profession of Christ that does not include confession and repentance of sin does not bring salvation, no matter how much pleasant emotion may result. To tell an unbeliever that God has a wonderful plan for his life can be seriously misleading. If the believer turns to Christ and is saved, God does indeed have a wonderful plan for him. But if he does not turn to Christ, God’s only plan for him is damnation. In the same way it is misleading and dangerous to tell an unbeliever only that God loves him, without telling him that, in spite of that love, he is under God’s wrath and sentenced to hell.

      God’s grace cannot be faithfully preached to unbelievers until His law is preached and man’s corrupt nature is exposed. It is impossible for a person to fully realize his need for God’s grace until he sees how terribly he has failed the standards of God’s law. It is impossible for him to realize his need for mercy until he realizes the magnitude of his guilt. As Samuel Bolton wisely commented, ‘When you see that men have been wounded by the law, then it is time to pour in the gospel oil.’”- John MacArthur

    29. Fred Rochester
      July 19th, 2012 @ 5:59 pm

      Another point that was clearly made was the fact that homosexuality and incest. Where there is a clear departure from the truth of the Word of God, a clear departure from the authority of the Scriptures, Gerald Palmer could not base his stand against incest on Biblical authority. Why? Because he couldn’t base homosexuality as a sin from….you guessed it…the Bible. One thing is agreed, the church must do better in terms of loving those within the LGBT community, but as Dr. Brown point out, we must show them love by telling them the truth. We really do not love them if we deceive them and fail to tell them the truth from the Word of God. Thanks, Dr. Brown. A very compelling show.

    30. ron david metcalf
      July 19th, 2012 @ 7:52 pm

      “love…respect…compassion” defined by my own conviction? Why are the first four Commandmenrs about Reverence to GOD, and the fifth (totalling half) about respect for parents? Was GOD trying to tell us something, or was this just archane myth now ‘evolved’ by our superior intelligence? If the Law has been replaced, only corporate leadership or individual conscience stands in the way of mass murder as the norm- without Judgment, there is no ultimate justice, and love and hatred can mean exactly the same thing (ie Syria). The Standard is not set to be despised and forgotten.
      In Him, Ron M.

    31. Betty
      July 19th, 2012 @ 8:48 pm

      Rev. Gerald Palmer gives me the impression that all he’s really concerned about is how gays and lesbians are being treated, not what scriptures say.
      Every-time Dr. Brown pointed out biblical texts to support his argument, Palmer would just simply say that he disagreed without any scriptural basis for it.
      It seems that nowadays gays have more rights than they can shake a stick at, but they will continue to push the boundaries despite whatever moral opposition they encounter. Rev. Palmer is either in denial about this or he’s just taking a defiant stance in solidarity with them.
      Discussions like these only reinforce my belief in the Bible and what it plainly states about homosexuality. And 1 Timothy 4:1-3 gives an even clearer picture about the people who try and contradict it.

    32. magnus
      July 19th, 2012 @ 10:10 pm

      Boris:” If God was omniscient”

      If God was? So would you prefer to be an automaton. Would that be the free will you seek. Oh, Hello again Boris.

    33. magnus
      July 19th, 2012 @ 10:19 pm

      Please help us all understand why it is that the line is drawn between same sex marriage and adult incest marriage. The genetic mutation excuse is an infinitesimal risk especially when compared to the known dangers of same sex, gender bender sex etc.

      What contains the same sex argument to just same sex but No family members? Or is that going to be the next generations slippery slope. Something tells me we wont have to wait givne the nature of the Instant gratification crowd. They will get bolder and more decadent and then who knows. I mean why is 18 years old able to make adult decisions but not a 17 year old? As we continue to blur the lines of right and wrong or more important from where Right and wrong comes from, you can just about imagine anything will be on its way.

    34. David Roberts
      July 19th, 2012 @ 11:05 pm

      @77:00

      “My thing is – why would god change something that he already created.” Rev. Gerald Palmer

      Liars, Sinners, Murderers, Psychopaths, Serial Killers, Paedophiles – why would god change something that he already created? HUH?!?!?!

      Isn’t that exactly what the Gospel message is?!?!?!

      Many years ago Dr. Brown was committing various sins, including heroine use, why would God want to change Dr. Brown whom he already created? ???
      Maybe because he was dead in his sins and needed to be brought out of death and into life to be a new creation! to set him free and give him a purpose and a hope?

    35. Boris
      July 20th, 2012 @ 12:55 am

      Dr. Brown,
      A woman in Seattle just married a corporation. Any comment?

    36. David Quest
      July 20th, 2012 @ 7:28 am

      To quote Dr Brown above (post 23) – ‘David was a flaming heterosexual and got into trouble because of his heterosexual lusts.’

      Quite apart from his well publicised adultery with Bathsheba, David clearly had multiple sexual relationships with women as a married man and children by many of them. He was fully acquainted with the Torah and God’s blueprint for one man, one woman, one flesh, established at creation, as Dr Brown emphasised on the show. David claimed to love and keep the Torah in many of his psalms.

      If these things are true, does that mean it’s possible to be a man or woman after God’s heart in spite of sexual deviancy? It doesn’t seem consistent to me, but maybe God is free to break his own rules if he chooses to. Is David excluded from the kingdom of God based on his sexual immorality?

      If David was faithful to God with his track record, what right have we got to pass judgment on others without knowing the full picture, as God does?

    37. David
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:52 am

      If you can show me where in the old testament having multiple wives is considered “sexual deviancy” or “sinful”, then you have a point. However, adultery and murder were the sins that got David into the most serious trouble that he needed to repent of due to his heterosexual lust. Those were the sins in the case of Bathsheba that the prophet confronted him on. However, what did God say about the multiple marriages? (2 Sam 12:8) An unrepentant David, or those that followed his example, would surely have been excluded from the kingdom of God which was why God’s punishment against him was so severe. I don’t think a man having multiple wives is forbidden with the same clarity and strictness as homosexual intercourse if that’s what you’re getting at (Lev 20:13). The problem is really that I can’t get around 1 Cor 6:9 (and believe me, I tried).

    38. S. Johnson
      July 20th, 2012 @ 5:22 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Very nice discussion. Interestingly, I heard the Rev. Palmer say 3 times how he had prayed while seeking the correct course for his ministry. Once again, it seems difficult to reliably base one’s theology on feelings. At the heart of the discussion is really the infallibility of the Bible. The Logic:

      1. God cannot err
      2. The Bible is the Word of God
      3. Therefore the Bible cannot err.

      The only way the conclusion does not follow is to deny one of the premises. Either God can err (perish the thought) or the Bible is not the Word of God.

      Support for premise 2 comes from what the Bible says about itself. Something like 1500 times in the OT is the equivalent of “Thus sayeth the Lord”. Geisler has put together an informative chart where he shows multiple parallel statements referring to a given passage where the same passage is said to be what Scripture says and elsewhere the same passage is said to be what God said. Thus what Scripture says=What God says.

      More logic:
      1. Jesus cannot err (else He is not God the Son)
      2. Jesus affirms the Bible is true
      3. Therefore the Bible cannot err.

      Support for premise 2 is abundant. Jesus said the equivalent of “It is written” 92 times in the NT. And when He did so that was the end of the discussion, Scripture was taken as the final authority. He directly called it the Word of God for example Mat 15:6 “You invalidated the Word of God for the sake of your tradition”, He says the Word of God is true (“Thy Word is truth” John 17:17), He says the Scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). This list could be significantly expounded.

      To deny that Scripture is the Word of God one must deny that Jesus is the Son of God; that is the payment for such a belief.

      The Apostles who would be taught “all things” (associated with the faith)John 14:26 say Scripture came from God. They say that it is “God Breathed” (2 Tim 3:16), that all prophecy was not made by an act of human will but by men moved by the Holy Spirit (1 Pet 1:21).

      Rev. Palmer discussed two views of Scripture, one being that it is infallible and the other that while it was inspired it was written by men and so not infallible. Presumably Rev. Palmer believes the latter, but this flies in the face of what the Bible claims for itself, what Jesus claimed and what the Apostles claimed.

    39. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 20th, 2012 @ 5:48 pm
    40. ron david metcalf
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:49 pm

      Jesus is infallible. What about Peter? Obviously not. David; infallible? So we have different ‘mountaintops’; some higher than others. Habakkuk admits his own fallibility even while he is prophesying; so our idea of ‘perfection’ is skewed.
      There are a few obvious numbering discrepancies; does this nullify the Bible? Or make it a gilded icon on a pedestal, never to be delved in too deeply? No, “the wind blows where it will”. GOD has His Absolute Standard, yet no two snowflakes that have ever fallen are exactly alike. How can this be? Every hair numbered; every little bird that falls, looked upon in Pure Love? We put our household idols in devotional corners; GOD splits the universe apart at the seams.
      In Him, Ron M.

    41. S. Johnson
      July 21st, 2012 @ 11:24 am

      Ron David

      You are conflating two ideas. No one claims that the writers of Scripture are infallible. It is the graphe–the writings that were “God Breathed”,not the writers. And further it was not all they wrote that was inspired, only those writings that were collected as Scripture. For example Paul’s grocery lists were not inspired.

      Peter calls Paul’s writings Scripture in 2 Peter 3:16 where they are compared to the “rest of Scripture”.

      Jesus said, “You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about me” Should he have said “they testify about Me somewhere amongst all the error”?John 5:39

      Jesus said “…all the things which are written about Me in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms must be fulfilled” Luke 24:44. Did He really mean that “somewhere amongst all the error in the Law, the Prophets and the Psalms there are mixed in some truths about me”?

      When they posed the question about the woman who married 7 brothers, Jesus said “You are mistaken not understanding the Scriptures nor the Power of God” Mat. 22:29. How could Jesus say they were in error because they did not understand the Scriptures if the Scriptures themselves were in Error. One cannot measure error by error.

      You also seem to be confusing error in the copies with errors in the originals. No one claims the copies are inerrant, only the autographs. The copies are only inspired to the degree that they were accurately transcribed. Fortunately, with so many copies (around 5800 Greek manuscripts/fragments)the accuracy is quite high.

      Perhaps Augstine said it best: “If we are perplexed by any apparent contradiction in Scripture, it is not allowable to say, the author of this book is mistaken, but either the manuscript is faulty, or the translation is wrong, or you have not understood.”

    42. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 1:39 pm

      See the OSAS thread for parallel discussion.
      Let’s say the Spirit of GOD gives you a dream for the body of Christ, and you want to put it in writing as best you can. Does this make every word you write inerrant, or you inerrant? John was given a glimpse of an open heaven on Patmos; put yourself in his place, trying to write it so that we would understand. For the Record to be more important than the Event would be like Peter saying, “Let’s make a shrine!” concerning the Transfiguration, and Jesus saying (paraphrasing): “Absolutely not! Let’s move on.” We still tend to write everything in stone rather than listening to the “still, small Voice” every day for our Guidance; and the larger the gathering, the more ‘formal’ this tendency becomes.
      The Sanhedrin didn’t want any ‘lone rangers’ messing with their Structure; so they crucified Jesus of Nazareth. @ 40 years later, their system was destroyed; and it hasn’t been rebuilt yet.
      The mighty struggle is over a single word: ‘error’. The Pharisees were sure they had the whole truth, and nothing but… Jesus came along and said (paraphrasing): “Nope! You missed the heart of GOD altogether!” So now there are a Whole Lot of strange, antichrist ideas floating around; what do we do? Same as always: obey Word and Spirit; rely on the blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony to overcome.
      In Him, Ron M.

    43. S. Johnson
      July 23rd, 2012 @ 4:18 pm

      Ron David,

      We must look at what Scripture says about itself. While David was not infallible, he did say as a death bed confession, the Spirit of the Lord was on my tongue; The best translation of the Greek for 2 Tim 3:16 is that ALL Scripture is God breathed. Multiple places Scripture says the Lord says. And what the Lord said always came to pass and at times was associated with a supernatural act to verify the Word of God.

      The Jesus did not tell the Pharisees that they were wrong because Scripture was wrong, He told them they were wrong because they did not understand what had been written and because they had overlaid and superimposed their own tradition on Scripture. The fact that the Pharisees did not understand and distorted Scripture does not mean the Scripture itself is in error. So with all due respect, your argument doesn’t really counter what I said earlier. I am not sure what you do with the text where Jesus claims the law, prophets and Psalms speak of Him. If they do not speak truth, but truth mixed with error, how are we to know what they really said about Him?

      My problem with hearing the “still small voice” is that I am never quite sure if it might be my own. As an example Dr. Brown in his book “Our Hands are Stained with Blood” recounts the story of someone in the ministry who spent time in prayer and came away with the idea that God is finished with Israel. But that’s not what Scripture says. So who do we believe, the “small voice” or Scripture?

      You ended your post saying “Obey Word and Spirit”, which part of the Word are we to obey if we are not sure which part might be in error?

    44. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 23rd, 2012 @ 4:41 pm

      A reminder to all to keep the discussion on track. The last comments are OK, and I really hate to monitor these things, but we’ve had too many folks over the years try to hijack a thread for their own purposes, which makes it basically worthless for everyone else, especially when it comes to using these threads for archival purposes for others. So, please do keep the focus on the issue of the Bible and homosexuality and the discussion with Gerald Palmer. Thanks!

    45. S. Johnson
      July 23rd, 2012 @ 5:44 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      I thought at the heart of this was Palmer’s view of Biblical inerrancy.

    46. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 23rd, 2012 @ 6:12 pm

      S. Johnson,

      Yes, that’s an important, related issue, however I’ve had to caution Ron about bringing up other issues on other threads that go far beyond the issue of inspiration, and I wanted to be sure that didn’t happen again here, hence my note about the previous posts being OK.

    47. Jabez H.
      July 23rd, 2012 @ 9:56 pm

      This matter of sexual orientation, practice, and God’s definitions of boundaries placed on his creation is so charged with identity matters for those invested in sin’s short term enticement, as such without essential knowledge of eternal promise established in the National conscience in our day. We find much of that promise etched into slogans on government buildings constructed for the most part in what now seems a distant National past.

      On the one hand, creation authority with the blessing of marriage is clear enough in establishment, on the other so many souls feeling the depths of sexual identity self procurements above a higher orientation of heart and mind than that of self speaks to the pervasiveness of sin and death creeping in to our whole way of living as a people.

      It seems strange the inner and societal conflicts involved in going against the Word of God and His establishments, being so presently passionately disposed, pursued, with a problem addressing will as a component of character abandonded as to giving priority to self control and surrender of the will to a conscience higher than self.

      When our President weighed in on freedom of choice over boundaries on being human something different was etched into our National consciousness than is found placed in high view on old goverment infrastructure buildings, as faithful slogans appearing there, etched without permission of our people of faith’s abiding conscience. That this imagination occurred to change our outlook as a people by decree of one man without co-consultation, and therefore, without basis of our Nation’s own constitutional law shows just how far self will has exceeded the blessed bonds of what was once the common threads of true community and mutual care.

      What concerns me the most in raising a family here now, is how readily indifference to faith, hope, and love comes up from a different will of National purpose, and so as to bending the knee to anything goes–where a strong disagreement to the present drift is not now permitted through a clearly declared and resistant confrontation within our common milieu of work, home, and school. Godliness is presently forbidden by the unspoken rules regarding the boundaries placed on each person’s walls, rather than each person’s vulnerabilities.

    48. Kenneth
      July 24th, 2012 @ 7:41 am

      I too am a Believer and an MSW. I understand the pressure to be politically correct and adhere to the NASW code of ethics, as well as the liberal political agenda of today’s world. Things are not always so consistent. As a believer and MSW so many of my perspectives are unpopular and,… well let’s just go with that to remain civil. However I have to say that despite this, we have to choose, no matter what our profession, whom we will serve. When I heard Rev. Gerald Palmer speaking I felt for him. I believed he truly has a heart for them and that is commendable, but I feel like he is conforming to the pressures of the day. He is also interpreting truth through his experiences, not the word or person of God. I am not sure he knew what he believed. He needs prayer to be the man of God he is to be. I cannot help but think of passages such as Acts 5:29, Joshua 25:15 and Romans 12:2. Love and Truth are NOT mutually exclusive they are two sides of the same coin.

    49. Mark
      August 9th, 2012 @ 4:20 pm

      In the end we have to choose whether we will fear God or fear Man. It can never be both at the same time. The “Gay PASTOR” has chosen to fear man at the expense of God and his word.

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