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    July 10, 2012 | 212 Comments

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    Dr. Brown debates Rev. Bill Lowery on the question of whether a believer can lose his salvation. Is it possible for a true believer to ever fall away? Can someone still claim to be “saved” if they have denied the Lord and now walk in unrepentant sin? Or does that mean the person was never saved in the first place? Join the debate today!

     

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    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Thank God for salvation. The free gift of salvation. It changes us radically, from darkness to light, from sin to holiness, and from Satan’s kingdom to God’s kingdom!

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    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: The love of God is so wonderful and our Holy God so awesome, that all the days of our lives we should live with gratitude and thanksgiving to Him. We should say, “Lord I want to walk worthy!”

     

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    VOR ARTICLE BY DR. BROWN

    Jesus came to set us free! This is one of the fundamental truths of the gospel, repeated over and again in the New Testament. As expressed by Paul, “It is for freedom that Christ has set us free” (Gal 5:1a). In the words of Jesus himself, “. . [...]


    Blameless On That Day: Holiness and Love

    VOR ARTICLE BY DAVID HARWOOD

    Justified believers are urged to pursue holiness. We are promised that the pure in heart shall see God. (Matthew 5:8) We are warned that without holiness no one will see the Lord. (Hebrews 12:14) In the hope of seeing Him as He is we are exhorted to purify [...]

    How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown:  This unsettling book challenges us to ask ourselves what kind of born-again experience we have had if it calls for almost no personal sacrifice, produces virtually no separation from the world, and breeds practically no hatred of sin.

     


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    212 Responses to “The Once Saved Always Saved Debate”

    1. Mark Phillips
      July 10th, 2012 @ 8:53 am

      OSAS : Once Saved,Always Saved
      POTS : Perseverence Of The Saints

      One of the most important things I’ve ever read outside Holy Scripture is found in the autobiography of Frederick Douglass (who was a former slave in nineteenth-century America). He recalled the time when (as a slave to a married couple) the wife thought she would teach Frederick to read. When the husband found out,he was furious – he told her that if she taught Frederick to read they would no longer be able to keep him enslaved ; in other words,that passage taught me that lack of education is a mental PRISON. Frederick overheard what the husband said,and needless to say,made sure that from that point on he learned to read ! A withholding of education imprisoned many nineteenth-century people in terrible circumstances ; conversely,a lack of objective Bible knowledge also keeps some believers in complacent coziness this very day !

      Here is something David said in the prologue to his book ‘Once Saved,Always Saved?’ – a book Michael has recommended in his own book,’Go And Sin No More.’ (See Chapter 3 Note 7) I believe this is actually one of the most important things David has ever said,as it reveals that OSAS is actually SUBJECTIVELY read INTO Holy Scripture – not OBJECTIVELY read FROM :

      “I must add two observations from my own experience [David is an itinerant teacher,and has met many believers over the years]…most if not all of those who believe it [OSAS,POTS] do so because they were told to. They did not find it for themselves [in Scripture]…On the other hand,everyone I have met who has had to study the Bible without anyone’s help [i.e. influence !] has come to the conclusion that they will have to ‘keep it up’ if they are finally to reach heaven.”

      (I can personally attest to that myself : when I read Second Covenant Scripture for myself – back in the eighties – I effectively and unknowingly vaccinated myself against OSAS,POTS and PRE-Trib rapture.)

      I believe there are many cozy believers in Britain and America ; they are effectively kept in a cozy intellectual prison cell that has them thinking they have tickets to heaven (whether it be due to sentimental OSAS,or Augustinian POTS). Furthermore,many are unaware that mainstream Evangelical OSAS/POTS comes from men of violence ; and since when have violent men been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus ?

      Jesus commanded His disciples to agape their enemies ; He also gave an acid test of what someone’s heart contains (Matthew 12:33-37) ; Paul told disciples to heap burning coals on the heads of their enemies. By contrast,in 1546 Calvin expressed a desire to have Michael Servetus put to death ; in 1553 burning faggots were heaped at Michael Servetus’s feet. If that is not bad fruit – what is ?

      It is one thing for a disciple to bask in the love of God as he or she walks in the light (that’s scriptural) ; and another thing entirely to complacently wallow in filth (that can be deadly). While not denying there are indeed sincere,dedicated Calvinists who have served Messiah Jesus in the past ; as well as those who do so today – I nevertheless pose this rhetorical question : in the last 500 years,how many people have complacently died in filth – thinking they had ‘OSAS’ tickets to heaven in their backpockets (so to speak) ? Both John Wesley and John Fletcher fought against Calvinism in their day ; they knew POTS was a slippery slope to OSAS. (Ultimately – to Gehenna.)

      I would personally like to see national NON-Calvinist leaders contending against POTS and OSAS in love – instead of trying to build unity at the expense of truth (note Proverbs 28:23 and Galatians 4:16). Would Paul have patted Hymenaeus on the back for the sake of unity ? Would John have let Diotrephes go unchallenged ? And how about Caiaphas – considering what he did,do you consider him SOUND ? What would Paul have said to and about Calvin,if Calvin had told Paul he wanted someone put to death ? (Need we ask !) On minor issues Paul said ‘let each one be fully persuaded’ ; on major issues he said ‘do not be deceived’ – objective,accurate salvation-ology is about as major as it gets !

      Here is an article on the violence of John Calvin :

      http://www.revivaltheology.net/1_cal_arm/ashes.html

      Here are two video adverts for David’s two books on OSAS and POTS (they last a few minutes each) :

      ‘Once Saved,Always Saved ?’
      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1191

      ‘The Road To Hell’ http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1206

      Here is a video interview (of almost 29 mins) with David,about OSAS.
      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/699?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fseries%2Fheroes-of-the-faith

      Here is an audio discussion of OSAS/POTS that was part of a series David gave on the book of Revelation (lasts almost 58 mins).
      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/357?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dinheritance%26x%3D37%26y%3D20

      And hey – I think the very autobiography of Frederick Douglass is now available as a FREE Kindle book. Assuming it is the same book,download it onto your Kindle,computer,tablet or smartphone if you can ; and read the passage I mentioned ; indeed the whole book. I have heard that when slavery was first dealt with in America,around 6000 former slaves wrote autobiographies ; Frederick’s is one of the most famous.

      http://www.amazon.com/Narrative-Life-Frederick-Douglass-ebook/dp/B000JQU7EO/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1341912228&sr=1-1&keywords=frederick+douglassThe

      In ‘Pagan Christianity ?: Exploring The Roots Of Our Church Practices’ Frank and George quote G.W.F.Hegel (a nineteenth-century German philosopher) – ‘What history teaches us is that men have never learned anything from it.’ (!)

      In OSAS and POTS,I believe the Body has been fed a deja vu case of denying the consequences of disobedience (and consequent strengthening of hands to sin) : in Eden,God said ‘you will surely die’ – Satan denied it (Genesis 2:16-17 and Genesis 3:4) ; to Israel,God spoke of calamity that He would bring for disobedience – the false prohets denied it (Deuteronomy 28:15,47-50,Jeremiah 14:13-14 and Jeremiah 23:14-17) ; to Roman disciples Paul said that SAVED Gentiles will not be spared – in many Western ‘pulpits’ men deny it. Indeed,the key question that seems to frame the OSAS,POTS error is as follows : will God spare genuinely SAVED,grafted Gentile branches (Romans 11:11,17-22) ? Authentic salvation is the CONTEXT (v11) ; and ‘NO’ is Paul’s God-breathed answer ! (v21-22) Many disciples today have fallen for this deja vu error ; I believe many hands have been strengthened over the last 500 years.

      It occurs to me that the only disciples who need OSAS or POTS to be true,are those who desire some materialistic,hedonistic or idolatrous filth – those who love what is on offer down here today,more than what is in store up above ; those holding unforgiveness towards someone ; those who are lukewarm. (They obviously need a ‘Filth Insurance Policy.’ One-tense ‘in-the-bag’ salvation would obviously be of tremendous importance to anyone in that position.)

      To repeat : since when have men of violence been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus ?

      Do read the article about John Calvin ; watch the brief video adverts (indeed,do get the books – remember,Michael has recommended one of them himself !) ; watch the free 29 min video and hear the free audio talk. Share the information with others.

    2. Rafael Morales
      July 10th, 2012 @ 12:00 pm

      It seems that the phrase “One saved always Saved” gives a oneway ticket to do whatever since our Lord die to take away our sin and defeat the emeny so their is no more sin in us because it just dissappears from us when we commit it. I don’t see how that is possible, to contiune in our old ways or ristrict oursevles from commiting them. I was told that when I was young, and I did not understand how that could be logical. I have read the Bible multiple times and cannot see anywhere we can continue in our old ways or the way of this world of lust,greed,lies watching things we know we are not suppose to watch,see or hear. Jesus said be holy! If anything else Jesus is showing us how to conduct ourselves through his action of love and not submitted to anything wrong, no violence just love and truth that came out of his mouth and many did not want to hear. He was showing how true believe and love to God is through our obeying our Father (GOD) in our walk in life. I have messed up alot in my life in the past and had in my head you only live once atituded I even did not want to read the bible because I knew alot of things I was doing were going to convict me and convict me it did to everything that I was doing and I was not saved just because I said I believe in Jesus. The Devil belives in Jesus too and runs away and know he is lord but yet does not change its life style its judgement is at hand. To believe is to obey all that Jesus said and commanded its our course of action and life style that needs to change if we truly believe in him. It is kind of common sense if we give a command to someone or order and that person is not reliable all the way than how can you put your trust in that person who does not change. We are saved always saved when we truly change our life to him and obey.

    3. Marco
      July 10th, 2012 @ 2:41 pm

      So it seems by this logic that nobody can be sure of salvation. We will never stop sinning as long as we are here in the flesh. Suppose I got saved today yet the Holy Spirit had not yet convicted me of a continual sin that I was involved in and I die before I can change. Do I not go to heaven? What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus? He didn’t have time to make a life change though he accepted Jesus right there. This really sounds like Lordship(works based) salvation.

      John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever…

      It doesn’t say live for ever IF you do x or y, it says eat of this bread and live forever with no additional works.

      John 10 28-30
      28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

      29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.

      30 I and my Father are one.

      How do you explain the above verses? Once we are saved our names are recorded in the Book of Life. No where in the bible does God say that our names can be or will be removed for any reason.

    4. Salvatore Mazzotta
      July 10th, 2012 @ 4:12 pm

      So, Mark, it is your position then that those who are in favor of capital punishment are unsaved. When a ruler bears the sword against evil doers, it may not be in vain, but it does tell us that that ruler is unsaved, along with all his supporters. Right?

      Or could it be that they were once saved and enjoyed everlasting life for a time, but when they became convinced that capitol is not contrary to scripture, that they then lost their salvation?

      And don’t forget, the charge against Servetus was blasphemy against the Trinity. Servetus taught that the trinity and deity of Christ were false doctrines. Now, if you are to be consistent with the reasoning you gave above, you must reject the doctrine of the Trinity; for it was trinitarians who put Servetus to death. And since when have men of violence been SOUND disciples of Messiah Jesus?

      If you will not, on the basis of your own reasoning, reject the Trinity, can you explain: Why do you reject some of the teachings of Calvin based on his behavior, while you embrace others of his teachings?

    5. Dan1el
      July 10th, 2012 @ 4:48 pm

      It says we shouldn’t be like Esau who gave up his BIRTHRIGHT…

      Those who believe in Christ have been BORN OF GOD, and our BIRTHRIGHT is to be led by the Spirit (all who are led by the Spirit of God are the sons of God) – Esau forfeited his birthright and Jacob stripped it from him. Is this in Scripture? Yes.

      In Revelation 2, Jesus tells the Philadelphian church “Hold fast your crown, LEST ANY MAN TAKE IT”
      In Matthew 25, it says “take from him his talent, and give it to him who has 10 talents”
      Paul says “not all who run the race are crowned” (God is the crown, according to Isaiah), and he weeps over people walking as if their belly were their god, and who are enemies of the Cross of Christ. He is talking about BROTHERS!
      Jude talks about people who are “twice dead” – how do you die twice, without being BORN TWICE? Jude says certain men are as “wandering stars” – who are the “stars” (that wander), here? Believers! Abraham’s descendants! Those who have the FAITH of Abraham are the ones who are Abraham’s descedants – and his descendants would be as the stars (for number – but as the stars, nonetheless – as Daniel says, “those who turn them any to wisdom will shine as the stars of the firmament forever” and Jesus says, “then the righteous will shine forth as stars in the kingdom of their father”).

    6. BenKC
      July 10th, 2012 @ 6:11 pm

      Bill sounds argumentative of his doctrine than what Scripture is saying. Dr Brown says heres what the context of this passage says, Bill runs away and says heres what my doctrine says..

    7. Ken
      July 10th, 2012 @ 8:06 pm

      Does not the holy spirit lead us into all rightness and if so can the spirit of g-d dwell in unholiness? or will he? so how can we continue in sin without are Lord correcting us? and if once saved always saved is true then why the need for corrected? think about it.

      Peace love and joy..

    8. Adam
      July 10th, 2012 @ 8:46 pm

      As a Calvinist, I was concerned about the lack of interaction on the topic of this notion that God puts it out there, and then man must accept or reject salvation. I really think that this is the center of the issue. If, indeed, as Paul said, “It does not depend upon the man who wills or runs but upon God who has mercy,” then the charge can rightly be laid at the Arminian that he is saying God is a failure when a man does not persevere. The only way that this charge can be avoided is if man also plays a part.

      The nature of man as dead in sin, and unable to come to Christ is also important, as it shows that, if it is up to man to accept salvation, he will never do it, because “the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God [Romans 8:7-8]. If man is dead in trespasses and sins, and it is up to him to receive salvation, then no one will ever be saved.

      Yes, we are called to live a holy life; no question about it. The problem is that, everyone who relies upon themselves to do so will always fail. Luther said it best in his debate with Erasmus. Erasmus asked him, “Who will reform his life.” Luther replied, “Nobody! Nobody can!” It is only the grace of God alone that causes a man to change his life.

      If these foundations are not laid, then discussion the perseverance of the saints is useless. I believe man must be holy, and that sin will not enter heaven. The problem is, I don’t believe that man can do anything about it. If it is left up to man, even in the sense of his daily choice to follow Christ, he will always fail. That is why all salvation including our life of holiness depends only upon the life-giving work of the Holy Spirit. It is that life giving work that grants us faith [Philippians 1:29] and repentance [2 Timothy 2:25] so that we do continue to fight sin.

      The real problem is not the fighting of sin; it is what we rely upon when we fight sin. If God just throws something out there, and expects us to choose to fight sin, because the desire of our hearts are always evil all the time [Genesis 6:5], we will always end up failing. That is why, if true revolution and change are to come in the church, man must turn from thinking that his reform depends even partially on himself, to the notion that reform depends entirely on the work of the Holy Spirit.

    9. Jesse Hendershott
      July 10th, 2012 @ 11:45 pm

      Ask someone like me, who was dramatically changed by The Holy Spirit, only to feel like God couldn’t give me what I wanted. I got involved into witchcraft, and I would say I just dabbled in it, which I did because I thought Satan could give me what God couldn’t.

      I’ve been through physical, mental, even spirtual torments (where my spirit felt extreme pain until I came back to my physical body). There were many times where demonic spirits would wake my spirit as my physical body slept. That can be scary! And I would beg Jesus to help me, but not once was I delivered in that instance. Why? Because I would not give up my sins. Repentance, turning away from sin, getting help from the body, becoming addicted to Jesus instead of porn (which was a way Satan held me into bondage to sin) is the only way.

      2 Chronicles 15:2

      New King James Version (NKJV)
      2 And he went out to meet Asa, and said to him: “Hear me, Asa, and all Judah and Benjamin. The Lord is with you while you are with Him. If you seek Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will forsake you.

      This is what sin will do. And you know what, Jesus knows exactly what this feels like, though He was sinless, He carried your sin, and because of sin He knows what it feels like to be abandoned by God!

      Matthew 27:45-46

      New King James Version (NKJV)
      46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

      He took it for us, in that we would never have to experience. And for all those who have fallen away, who might even be angry with God, feeling abandoned there is this Word:

      15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

      Do I believe in OSAS, NO. But do I believe you can overcome, YES! But it will take sacrifice, it will take prioritizing, you will have to ask what is most important to you, and does it give you peace, joy? In the big picture, and the bigget picture yet to be seen, what you have given up in place of God means nothing.

    10. Mary
      July 10th, 2012 @ 11:58 pm

      This was not a debate. Although I agree with Dr. Brown, Dr. Lowery was not permitted to speak. He was not given equal opportunity to express his viewpoint. Semantics, semantics, semantics in some areas. I am glad Jesus is the final judge. May he have mercy upon me a poor sinner.

    11. Michael B Babbitt
      July 11th, 2012 @ 7:28 am

      One has to constantly let the Holy Spirit work in us (Grace – we really don’t deserve it) to help us live the Holy life. Faith gives us the strength and joy to walk along the narrow path, but we have to be willing partners to allow this to occur. To me, it’s not even close. God gives His Gift, which is Salvation, yes; but we must receive it fully and choose to live it out and transform our lives.

    12. BenKC
      July 11th, 2012 @ 7:57 am

      Mary, Dr. Brown was fair. William Lowery went off too many times into a different tangent and would not stick with the getting deeper in answering the questions. He got too preachy and did not discuss deeper on a theological level. He came off stubborn to work with Dr. Brown.

    13. Uchendu
      July 11th, 2012 @ 8:47 am

      OSAS… I think there are 2 issues here: Salvation (past present and future) and sin. Once a person responds the Gospel of Grace (cf 1 Cor 15), they are then given commandments by their Lord on how to live. These commandments are mesnt to reveal to the Lord’s disciples exactly what Righteousness looks like: how we walk, talk, think and believe. This is the duty of ALL who are disciples of Messiah. If we continue to live as if sin is our master, then it is correct to question whether we KNOW who we belong to and WHAT He has done (is doing and continue to do). Righteousness is a gift. It is the very garments of Elohim; if we KNOW this, then we live as Righteous children of a righteous Father, even though we may fall – at times. If we do NOT know this, then our response to this Truth will reveal our understanding of whatMessiah has done for us.

    14. Jacob Apologist
      July 11th, 2012 @ 9:25 am

      “23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it. 24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.” 1 Cor 9.

      4 No soldier in active service entangles himself in the affairs of everyday life, so that he may please the one who enlisted him as a soldier.5 Also if anyone competes as an athlete, he does not win the prize unless he competes according to the rules.” 2 Tim 2

      The race is not finished until it’s finished. If one stops running he aint’ gonna win guys. If one leaves the righteous life in obedience to the Lord then he has no salvation, his faith is dead.

      Mark 4: Parable of Sower and Soils.
      13 And He *said to them, “Do you not understand this parable? How will you understand all the parables?
      14 “The sower sows the word.
      15 “These are the ones who are beside the road where the word is sown; and when they hear, immediately Satan comes and takes away the word which has been sown in them.
      16 “In a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy;
      17 and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.
      18 “And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word,
      19 but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
      20 “And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold.”

      Matthew 13:Tares among Wheat
      24 Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.
      25 “But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
      26 “But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
      27 “The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’
      28 “And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’
      29 “But he *said, ‘No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them.
      30 ‘Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn.”‘”

      How clear is this, that those who fall apart in the snatch of sinful ways they head towards their destruction those who do not repent in rebellion against God. Those who do not listen and understand are not among the sheep of Jesus. But the obedient believers who keep the word and bring fruits and not tares, they are the sheep of Jesus and no one can snatch them away from eternal life. The unrepentant and rebellious pple are not his children because of their own accountability and works.

    15. Adam
      July 11th, 2012 @ 9:58 am

      Jesse Hendershott,

      I would simply ask the question as to why it is that you overcome but someone else does not? Why is it you came out of witchcraft and the occult, but your fellow witches did not?

      Michael B Babbitt,

      I would pose a similar question to you. Why is it that you “let the Holy Spirit work in you” and are a “willing partner” while someone else is not? If it is totally up to you to do this, then why did you do it and someone else did not? Was it because you were better? Smarter? More spiritual? Whatever your answer is, how does it not give you a reason to boast over the other person?

      The problem is that synergism, in the final analysis, has to make salvation dependent upon man. Whether man is saved or not is dependent upon what man does. Not only does that blatantly contradict what Paul says [Romans 9:16], but it gives reason for boasting, because you were somehow better than the person who did not do their part.

      Not only that, to both of you, if man must be a cooperative partner, how will he ever do so, seeing that every imagination of the desires of his heart are only evil all the time [Genesis 6:5], and that the mind set on the flesh is not able to please God [Romans 8:7-8]? If man only desires what is evil, then how will he ever desire to cooperate with grace?

      This is the problem. I don’t believe that this view addresses the real reason people sin-the sinfulness of their heart. If we desire to see true change take place in a society, we must view that change as only coming from the Holy Spirit of God, with man playing no part, because of his wickedness. The underestimation of man’s wickedness, and the exalting of the will of man is dangerous, especially against systems of thought such as humanism.

    16. Jonathan
      July 11th, 2012 @ 11:18 am

      I wanted to respond to a few things Marco wrote in post #3.

      First off, while I reject once saved/always saved (and the doctrine of preservation of the saints also), I do not hold to the belief that someone will lose their salvation based upon some sin that the person did not have a knowledge of. I don’t even believe that someone will lose their salvation if they commit a sin and die before they have a chance to confess it. But I do believe that a habitual sin that someone does callously and without repentance can cause someone to lose their salvation.

      …As to the verses you addressed:

      You are correct that John 6:51 does not specifically say that eternal life is conditional upon remaining in Christ. And if John 6:51 was the only Scripture that addressed it, then I would believe in Once Saved/Always Saved and Perseverance of the Saints. But John 6:51 is NOT the only verse on the subject (which I will address later).

      As far as John 10:28-30, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand”. The first half of the verse states, “And I give to them eternal life; and they shall never perish…” Now if you take this half of the verse away from the context of the prior verses, someone may conclude a person’s actions have no bearing on the security of their salvation after they are saved. But you can see from the prior verse that those He is speaking of in that verse are those that hear His voice and follow Him. Therefore, the logical conclusion you can take from this is that if someone chooses to no longer hear His voice and follow Him, that they are not included in the guarantee in the first half of John 10:28. You cannot view the first half of John 10:28 as an absolute guarantee regardless of a person’s choices unless you read that interpretation into the verse, because, taken in context, that is not what it says.

      To reinforce this conclusion, we can look at John 3:36, “He that believes on the Son has everlasting life: and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God stays on him.” Does Scripture indicate the first clause in this verse is absolute without the ability to be changed by a person’s change of heart but the second is not? If both clauses were absolute than how could anyone become a believer in the first place, since we all started out as nonbelievers? This Scripture only makes sense if each clause is only viewed as applying to a person as long as they abide within the requirements of that clause. John 10:28 similarly should be viewed as only speaking of those who abide by the requirements of the verse before it.

      I also don’t take the second half of John 10:28 to mean anything in addition to what it says. If it was indicating you could not make a choice it would have stated that in addition to what it was saying. Again, you cannot take this verse away from the context. If you read all of John 10, you see that Jesus is talking though out the chapter about, “He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold” and refers to this person as “a thief and a robber” and “a stranger”. He also speaks of “a hireling” and “wolf”. What it is speaking of is an outside force. Notice that not a single time in this sheep illustration through out the whole chapter does He ever speak about whether or not the sheep can make a decision to leave the flock (In fact, in Isa 53 it says that “all we like sheep have gone astray”. Through the whole chapter, He is talking about protecting the sheep from an outside force. Looking at the language used in this part of the verse, we will see that it is still speaking about that outside force, the Scripture states, “…neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” Now if I were to say that a child fell into a fire and I plucked him out of the fire that would make sense, wouldn’t it? But if I said I fell into the fire and then plucked myself out, that would sound a little weird, wouldn’t it? The verb “pluck” describes, not a first person action, but the action of an outside force. To imply this Scripture means anything besides that is to read into the verse more than it says.

      And finally, you say, “Once we are saved our names are recorded in the Book of Life. No where in the bible does God say that our names can be or will be removed for any reason.”

      Yet Rev 3:5 says, ” He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.” This verse implies that it is possible for someone’s name to be blotted out of the book of Life or else there would be no point in stating that overcomers would not have their name blotted out.

    17. Jonathan
      July 11th, 2012 @ 11:24 am

      As I mentioned in my last post that I would share these Scriptures, here are the some of the other Scriptures that seem to indicate that a Christian can reject their salvation are Matt 5:13 (salt losing it’s savor), Matt 24:12 (the love of many will wax cold), Luke 9:62 (putting your hand to the plow and then looking back), Gal 1:6 (they were so soon removed from Him that called them), 1 Cor 15:2 (unless you have believed in vain), 1 Tim 4:1 (some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits), 1 Tim 6:20-21 (some have strayed concerning the faith), 2 Tim 2:18 (they overthrow the faith of some), Heb 3:12 (lest there be an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God), Heb 12:15 (lest any man fail of the grace of God), Rev 3:1-6 (were once alive but now dead), Rev 3:14-22 (the lukewarm church that God will spit out).

    18. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 11th, 2012 @ 12:01 pm

      Just a quick note: My big problem is with OSAS, not with the P in TULIP (although I’m not a Calvinist).

      Adam, nice to hear from you again! How are your studies going?

    19. ron david metcalf
      July 11th, 2012 @ 1:01 pm

      Agree with #13 re salvation & sanctification.
      Paul’s ‘adoption’ theology is a good place to see how grace overcomes ‘the law of sin and death’ and puts in a new ‘law written on our hearts’: inlaws instead of outlaws. Disobedient children are still children; Jesus knows His sheep; we are not the Judge; yet there still seems to be a dangerous line that can be crossed back into perpetual iniquity and damnation (the subject of this debate).
      See Our State North Carolina July 2012 page 104 ff for a short secular take of Billy Graham’s ‘stature’ on this subject.
      In Him, Ron M.

    20. Jacob Apologist
      July 11th, 2012 @ 1:25 pm

      Hi Doc, however this OSAS thingy is caused and came from the same reformed calvinist approach of predestination. What is your take on the Paul’s couple of reference about “predestination” in his letters Romans, Cor, Ephesians? in brief?

    21. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 11th, 2012 @ 2:06 pm

      Hey folks, I apologize for any way that I sounded contentious during my interview with Bill yesterday. I was not happy with months of Facebook interaction where I could not get a direct response to my questions and was not going to let that happen on the air yesterday. To whatever extent I failed to be gracious, please forgive me.

    22. mbabbitt
      July 11th, 2012 @ 2:44 pm

      Adam,
      The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities. There are inequalities of talent and abilities and gifts and one can always boast for whatever reason(s), if one serves the flesh. If one serves only Christ, one is only concerned on helping one’s neighbor to gain salvation. Paul could boast of his great sacrifices for Christ, but does not. He’s only concerned with service to the Lord.

    23. Faith
      July 11th, 2012 @ 3:11 pm

      Eternal Security DOES NOT SAY YOU CAN DO WHAT YOU WANT. Whoever teaches that is crazy and doesn’t love God. If you are saved, you won’t continuously live a life of sin…you will sin because of your sin nature but if you’re in Christ, you won’t like it, you’ll repent because: Phil 2: 13 for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.

      Eternal Security is all over the bible. You can’t even decide to be saved, you aren’t good enough nor do you believe enough for scripture says: John 6: 44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
      I can honestly say that I have questioned Eternal Security, but I can not deny what I have read…..The bible clearly speaks of God’s Election…Romans8: 28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

      I still don’t understand everything but I feel much better knowing He called me, changed me and will keep me to the end. I am TOTALLY dependent on Him to keep me while I keep in mind that I seek to please Him. Even a natural relationship with a husband and wife teaches that if my husband is faithful to take care of me, protect me and provide for me- I feel bad when I sin against Him so I tell Him I’m sorry to HEAL the relationship eventhough he probably won’t leave me. I glad I don’t have to pave my way into Heaven. NONE of us would make it. But I do love God…when I sin against Him, I am sorry and I tell Him that and He is faithful that promised. But if a man continues a lifestyle of sin and says he is a Christian or a man “leaves the faith” the scriptures says he was never among the saved in the first place. 1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us.

      ***Let us ALL be careful to the teaching we receive…you and me…error is dangerous and gets so deeply engrained that its hard to accept the truth when it comes…..

      24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

    24. Faith
      July 11th, 2012 @ 3:28 pm

      By the way, in my church- that believes in Biblical doctrines of Eternal Security and Election…when we sin continuously, we are dealt with using church discipline, and if we go unrepentant of known sin, the person is removed from the congregation…does that sound like we are doing “whatever we want” and still believing we are saved??? I pray true reformed churches will be used in these last days to reveal the truth about the misinterpretations of what we believe. I want to continue to learn more, to have confidence in my Savior and what He has done, what I couldn’t do on my own.

    25. Brian
      July 11th, 2012 @ 8:46 pm

      Adam,

      Your premise that man’s acceptance of G-d’s free gift of grace unto salvation is man centered fails the test when held to the light of Scripture. Paul is quite clear that the grace of G-d that brings salvation has appeared to all men; hence, the initiation has always begun with the LORD offering this enabling grace to us, wherein whosoever responds to Him, and continues therein, shall be saved.

      There is a central message that holds man accountable for his actions that can ultimately result in the forfeiture of eternal life. This has been the consistent message of the gospel from the creation of man, in G-d’s conditional call for Adam to follow His command in the garden, to the final book of Revelation. The topic at hand focuses on the possibility of man forfeiting the salvation that has once been granted to him.

      This being the case, if you would, please exegete the following passage for me.

      “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).

      Shalom,
      Brian

    26. Boris
      July 12th, 2012 @ 1:32 am

      It’s a double blessing of salvation and forgiveness of sins for doing the work of bringing someone back to faith.

    27. Mark Phillips
      July 12th, 2012 @ 4:45 am

      Salvatore,my contention is that follwers of Messiah Jesus follow Him – they care for their enemies.

      No I do not embrace Calvin’s teaching ; when one is outside the writing of Holy Scripture,you are then on fallible territory. Therefore,and in the light of Mattheww 12:33-37 in particular,guardedly read the writings of those who agape their enemies. Michael L Brown and David Pawson are the finest teachers I have found.

      The autobiography of The Heavenly Man is a good example.

      I am an unregenrate Gentile myself ; as such,I usher you to the books,audio and video information I gave above. David Pawson (though fallible like everyone else) is one of the very finest Bible teachers.

      The living God requires NINE YARD REPRESENTATION : 2 Timothy 2:2,Acts 5:20,Matthew 28:20 and Jeremiah 26:2. It seems that few teachers are willing to pass on both sides of the coin ; the sweet and the sour. David passes the warnings on to the same people Jesus did – authentic disciples.

      The key question for OSAS and POTS advocates is this : once saved,always SPARED ? What did Paul say in Romans 11:11,17-22.

      Do disciples really want both sides of the TRUTH ? Or a flesh-friendly TICKLE ? 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    28. Mark Phillips
      July 12th, 2012 @ 7:18 am

      Donate around 15 minutes of your life to hearing two book adverts (advert hyperlinks given in first comment above). After hearing what David says,if you do not want to get the books,fair enough.

      But do give an all-too-rare NINE YARD REPRESENTATIVE of Messiah Jesus 15 mins.

    29. Gene
      July 12th, 2012 @ 8:31 am

      Re:#17

      Michael,

      THANK YOU! Have you spoken with William to seek his forgiveness?

    30. ron david metcalf
      July 12th, 2012 @ 9:24 am

      Mark,
      what does ‘unregenerate Gentile’ mean? What would it take to ‘generate’ you?
      Boris, we’re all praying this is your testimony. You can be an awesome vessel for the LORD by ‘keeping the faith’.
      In Him, Ron M.

    31. Jonathan
      July 12th, 2012 @ 9:31 am

      Regarding post #24, Faith, I am glad that you and your church do hold church-members accountable for sin. This is what the teachings of the New Testament teach us to do.

      I believe that is why Dr. Brown made the statement he did in post #18. He is focusing specifically on Once Saved/Always Saved as opposed to Perseverance of the Saints (or Eternal Security).

      And while I agree that it is important to differentiate between these distinct beliefs, and while I also agree that the outcomes of belief in Eternal Security are not the same as the outcomes of belief in Once Saved/Always Saved, I still must contend that both beliefs are rooted in a mistaken understanding of the exact same Scripture verses. So it is extremely difficult to combat one without combating the other.

      But even if it were possible to combat one without combating the other, I do not believe I should try.

      If I believe there is a right interpretation to particular Scripture verses, I should be trying to help people to understand the right interpretation. I should not merely be trying to prevent one incorrect interpretation of a Scripture that causes bad results in favor of another incorrect interpretation that does not produce those same bad results.

      You can look at posts #16 and 17 to see why I believe both Once Saved/Always Saved and Perseverance of the Saints (or more popularly called Eternal Security) are incorrect interpretations of Scripture.

    32. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 12th, 2012 @ 9:35 am

      Gene, re: #29, oh yes, of course. Everything is clear.

    33. Jonathan
      July 12th, 2012 @ 9:55 am

      Regarding the post from Adam in #15, I would say that I agree with the doctrine of total depravity that Calvinists hold to. But unlike Calvinists, I believe that God has provided a way for every single person to come to Him. I believe that God has called everyone to Himself but that we have a free will to accept or reject that call. If we do accept that call, it is not due to any good in us, but only due to yielding to God’s Spirit.

      I would answer with the following illustration. The whole world is being swept down the river of sin, the waters sweeping all humanity ever closer to the waterfall of eternal judgment. No matter how desperately we grasp at the banks of this river, we are incapable of pulling ourselves out of the deadly current that pulls us closer toward destruction. Yet we have an all-powerful rescuer. His name is Jesus.

      Now does the one who accepts the outstretched hand by grasping hold of it save themselves? Is it according to their own works that they are saved? In the most extreme literal sense, the argument can be made that they were saved because they grasped hold of the outstretched hand. But who would really make that claim? That person had two choices, accept the help that was offered to them or continue down the path of destruction. Yet if they grasped the outstretched hand of the rescuer, they could do nothing but surrender to his help as he pulled them out. They could have no leverage against the slippery slope of the riverbank even after they take hold of the rescuer’s hand. They are totally dependent upon him to pull them out. It was through no work of their own that they were saved, but only by accepting the work of another.

      I heard another illustration given that if someone gave me a check for a million dollars that will save me from bankruptcy, all I have to do is endorse and cash the check. Now if I go around saying I earned it and saved myself from bankruptcy simply because I endorsed it that, of course, would not be true. In fact, I would be ungrateful for even making that claim. Accepting a free gift is not earning it by works.

      In the same way, our salvation and justification are not through any work of our own. I believe we have the ability to either accept or reject the redeeming blood of Jesus as a substitutionary sacrifice for our sins. The Israelites in Egypt also had a choice. The command was made to place the blood on the doorposts of their houses. Yet, they were not forced to do so. Those who did apply the blood weren’t saved through their own works; they were saved by allowing the blood of a lamb to redeem them from death. In the same way, New Covenant believers have also not been saved through THEIR own works; they (like the Israelites in Egypt) are saved by allowing the blood of THE Lamb to redeem them from death. Romans 4:4-5 seems to bear out that simply believing on Him is not considered works.

    34. Adam
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:22 am

      Dr Brown,

      Just a quick note: My big problem is with OSAS, not with the P in TULIP (although I’m not a Calvinist).

      Are you talking about the Zane Hodges, Bob Wilkin, anti-Lordship nonsense? I will never forget Dr. Grant Osborne, my hermeneutics professor, standing up in class and calling that stuff heresy. And if you know Dr. Osborne, that is saying something! Dr. Osborne has a great gift for good relations in inter-theological dialogue. When he calls you a heretic, you had better sit up and listen!

      Adam, nice to hear from you again! How are your studies going?

      Honestly, I have hit on hard times. I am finished with my coursework, but am stuck between my Master’s and doctoral program. It is a long story, but I can’t afford to take out any more student loans. The problem is, if you are not half time, you don’t get to have those loans deferred. So, I am stuck working multiple jobs in order to semi-keep up with the monthly payments, and trying to prepare for comprehensive exams at the same time. Not fun. I have tried applying for an extension and half time status, but haven’t heard anything back.

      I am still trying to get better, though. In what very little spare time I have, I have been reading books on pragmatics, psycholinguistics, and discourse analysis [you can see the influence of Dr. VanGemeren], as well as trying to keep up with the ancient near eastern languages I already know. Cuneiform signs are a major problem. They are so easy to forget!

      I am looking at doing my doctorate in linguistics at Ohio State specializing in the historical linguistics and semantics/pragmatics of the languages of the ancient near east. They don’t require a master’s degree, and they have an awesome financial package to help their students pay for the doctoral program, to the point where most of the students don’t have any debt from their doctoral program. Hence, I am wondering if it might not be best to leave my master’s degree unfinished, and go on for my doctorate.

      Anyway, how is the ministry to the Jews coming? Do you have any new debates scheduled?

      God Bless,
      Adam

    35. Ken
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:56 am

      Boris, If you are the same Boris we all know here
      your comment brings great joy to my heart!

      Peace, Love and Joy to you:)

    36. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 12th, 2012 @ 11:25 am

      Adam,

      Thanks for the updates.

      As for OSAS, it’s not just the anti-lordship stuff; it’s the belief that no matter how you live (even if you once were serious about Jesus’ lordship), no matter how deeply you deny Him, if you were “once saved” you are “always saved.” Very dangerous indeed.

      As for your studies, keep reviewing! It really is easy to forget the many different scripts. And remember: God will open the door for you according to His best plans. Don’t strive. Seek Him earnestly and He will guide your paths.

      As for Jewish ministry — great! My newest book is The Real Kosher Jesus. Quite a story behind it.

    37. Adam
      July 12th, 2012 @ 11:26 am

      mbabbitt, Brian,

      I know Dr. Brown likes to stay on topic, so, if Dr. Brown wishes, we may have to move this to another thread. Still, a few comments:

      The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities. There are inequalities of talent and abilities and gifts and one can always boast for whatever reason(s), if one serves the flesh. If one serves only Christ, one is only concerned on helping one’s neighbor to gain salvation. Paul could boast of his great sacrifices for Christ, but does not. He’s only concerned with service to the Lord.

      The problem is that “free will” is a slippery term. I remember when I took theology, I had a teacher, Dr. Feinberg, who told me that, in the field of philosophical anthropology, there are four different senses in which man can be said to be free. I believe that man is truly making his choices, because he is doing exactly what he wants. In that sense, man’s will can be called “free,” even though what he desires to do may be exactly what God ordains.

      Secondly, I agree with you that we should be serving Christ instead of the flesh, but the problem is, if you have a view of human freedom that says that salvation is partially up to man and his decision, when the question is specifically asked as to why one man made the decision and not the other, how can the focus be on anything but the flesh? Especially since you have already said that this decision is independent of any causal act from God.

      Your premise that man’s acceptance of G-d’s free gift of grace unto salvation is man centered fails the test when held to the light of Scripture. Paul is quite clear that the grace of G-d that brings salvation has appeared to all men; hence, the initiation has always begun with the LORD offering this enabling grace to us, wherein whosoever responds to Him, and continues therein, shall be saved.

      My concern is with the phrase “all men.” Words like “all” can undergo what is called “free enrichment.” For example, lets say that we are at church, and the pastor says the following:

      I know we have various races in our congregation-Black, Hispanic, Asian…but here in our church, all people worship God together with one voice!

      Clearly he does not mean that every human being on the face of the planet gathers in his church to worship God with one voice. His statement can be pragmatically enriched to:

      I know we have various races in our congregation-Black, Hispanic, Asian…but here in our church, all [kinds of] people worship God together with one voice!

      The problem with the citation of Titus 2:11, is that it is in that very context, although we are dealing with age and gender rather than race and ethnicity. Paul speaking to various different groups in the church [older men, older women, young women, young men, slaves, etc.]. In other words, he is going through and giving instruction in godliness to all the different classes of human beings in the church. Hence, if we follow the pattern stated above, the word “all” would be pragmatically enriched in the following way:

      Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all [these classes of] men, 12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,

      Notice how it also fits well with the context, as, in the following verse, Paul speaks of this salvation teaching us to deny ungodliness, the very thing he was speaking of previously in the chapter, applying it to older women, younger men, etc.

      There is a central message that holds man accountable for his actions that can ultimately result in the forfeiture of eternal life. This has been the consistent message of the gospel from the creation of man, in G-d’s conditional call for Adam to follow His command in the garden, to the final book of Revelation. The topic at hand focuses on the possibility of man forfeiting the salvation that has once been granted to him.

      I don’t know how to read that, other than as a statement that we are still under the Adamic covenant. If that is the case, then, in what sense, does Christ hold a better covenant than Adam? Have you not just destroyed the whole apologetic argument of Paul in Romans 5, and the author of the book of Hebrews?

      Yes, I believe that man must persevere. However, the reason why I persevere is not because of anything in me, but because of what Christ did for me on the cross 2000 years ago:

      Hebrews 10:10-14 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God, 13 waiting from that time onward until His enemies be made a footstool for His feet. 14 For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.

      I am perfected once *for all time* by the sacrifice of Christ. Thus, if I do stray from the faith, it will only be for a time, so that I might learn the futility of life in that sin, and the power of the cross of Christ will always bring me back, if I am a true believer.

      This being the case, if you would, please exegete the following passage for me.

      “My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover a multitude of sins” (James 5:19-20).

      Simple. Not everyone who professes belief in the truth is saved. Hypocrisy is all over the church. This verse only touches the anti-Lordship, cheap grace folks who think that professing the truth is all there is to the Christian life. However, if you recognize the deceptiveness of your own heart, you will realize that you can claim that you are a follower of Christ, and not actually be one. As Peter says, we must:

      2 Peter 1:10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;

      And Paul says:

      2 Corinthians 13:5 Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you– unless indeed you fail the test?

      This only works if you believe salvation is nothing more than a tip of the cap to God. If salvation is a transformation of the heart, brought by the Holy Spirit alone, that produces continual growth in grace, and that is made certain of its final perseverance by the death of Christ. Such a view of salvation allows for the possibility of false faith, and false profession.

      God Bless,
      Adam

    38. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 12th, 2012 @ 11:34 am

      Yes, folks, let’s stay on the topic of “once saved always saved” as much as possible, so if things broaden into Arminian-Calvinism debates, please try to return to the main theme. Thanks!

    39. Adam
      July 12th, 2012 @ 11:38 am

      Mark Phillips,

      I would be very careful about that line of reasoning. For one thing, those who have studied church history have told me that the situation with Servetus is not as simple as you or any of the other articles would like to make it. There is the whole issue of the state church, and the fact that Calvin, not only tried to befriend Servetus by risking his life for him many times, but also the fact that the man was condemned to die by the state, and not by Calvin. Calvin, in fact, was not even a citizen of Geneva at this time period! While he had a vote, he had to vote according to the law, and the law stated that heresy was a crime, and that heretics had to die.

      Still, let us assume that Calvin did what was wrong here. Synergism has likewise had its share of men who did things that were wrong. For example:

      Roman Catholic leaders during the middle ages were synergistic,

      Roman Catholic leaders during the middle ages engaged in crusades and inquisitions in which they killed their enemies.

      Therefore, synergism is wrong, because its roots are found in the murder and slaughter of thousands of unbelievers in the crusades.

      Now you have just thrown Dr. Brown to the very same argument you used.

      The problem is that people can say they believe true propositions, but are acting hypocritically, because they do not believe them in their heart, to the point where it changes the way they act and behave. Still, it does not change the truthfulness of the propositions. I think both Calvinists and Arminians should cut out that kind of rhetoric. There have been monergists who have done bad things, there have been synergists who have done bad things. The issue is which view is consistent with the scriptures, and consistent with itself.

      God Bless,
      Adam

    40. Adam
      July 12th, 2012 @ 11:49 am

      Dr. Brown,

      Yipe! That is insane. Not that I don’t struggle with certain sins, as any young person today does, especially with all of the sexually charged images around me. Still, I believe I have to do just that: struggle. I can’t make peace with sin, but must fight it day by day. If I fall, I get back up and keep fighting.

      While these people might not claim to be part of the non-Lordship camp, I don’t know how this position would not logically reduce down to the non-lordship position. If Jesus Christ is truly Lord, then doesn’t he have the right to make demands on your behavior? If he does not, then in what sense can we call him “Lord?” As Jesus said:

      Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I command?

      Also, thanks for the advice! It is always important for me to listen to what those who have trodden this path before have to say. And I can certainly see how you are right. The temptation is to take matters into your own hands, rather than trust in God. There are times when you feel like you will never hold that Phd in your hands, especially given all the non-academic obstacles that I have had thrown my way. However, as someone once told me, whatever doesn’t kill you will only make you stronger!

      God Bless,
      Adam

    41. Boris
      July 12th, 2012 @ 1:44 pm

      ron david metcalf

      Mark,
      what does ‘unregenerate Gentile’ mean? What would it take to ‘generate’ you?
      Boris, we’re all praying this is your testimony. You can be an awesome vessel for the LORD by ‘keeping the faith’.
      In Him, Ron M.

      Ken

      Boris, If you are the same Boris we all know here
      your comment brings great joy to my heart!
      Peace, Love and Joy to you:)

      Response: You guys are jumping the gun as they say. Just because I know how to answer Brian’s question doesn’t mean I believe the answer. I responded to the question because I didn’t think anyone else on this blog knew the “correct” answer. My testimony is this: You can’t lose something you never had. There are no such things as an afterlife or souls. We are all finite biological organisms. Christianity’s promise/threat of an afterlife is as false as any lie ever told on this planet. Belief in an afterlife leads to all sorts of escapist and life avoidance issues as any unbeliever could easily see just from reading the comments on this thread.

      As for Jewish ministry — great! My newest book is The Real Kosher Jesus. Quite a story behind it.

      Response: What IS this story Dr. Brown? What are the sources for your book exactly? Why it’s the Bible of course. That’s because outside of the Bible there exists not one shred of “information” about Jesus Christ. So all you’ve done is rehash what the Bible already says. Yet amazingly people will pay money to read such a book anyway. Jesus Christ is an invention of Greek speaking gentiles, which is why the Jews of the first and second century never heard of such a person. Kosher Jesus. Sure. How come Jesus quoted the Greek version of the OT rather than the Hebrew version? The Bible has Jesus the Jew speaking Greek to orthodox Jewish rabbis. No wonder they didn’t like him.

      The question really comes down to a definition of free will or it’s limitations. Do we have free will or not? Are we capable of truly making our own choices in reaction to events, circumstances, and inherited qualities.

      Response: People believe in the metaphysical brand of free will because it feeds their fragile egos. Believing in free will means that we don’t understand the antecedent and deterministic as well as the quantum-mechanically random causes of our actions and decisions. At the quantum level we are all just robots made up of colonies of cells. All of our decisions are the result of the structure and connections and chemicals in the brain and could be predicted by a computer or if God actually existed, within the limits of quantum uncertainty.

      Gene

      Re:#17
      Michael,
      THANK YOU! Have you spoken with William to seek his forgiveness?

      Response: A few years ago Dr. Brown invited me to be a guest on his show for an hour. I declined the invitation several times but finally relented and came on the show. We did an entertaining and informative show for the listeners that got a lot of comments on the blog afterwards. On the show Dr. Brown thanked me for being such a charming and informative guest and complimented me for the tone of my dialog. Then the next day on the air he blasted me for not being aggressive enough on the show among other things. I was banned from commenting on the blog and had no way to rebut or answer the accusations Dr. Brown hurled at me after doing the show. I don’t expect Dr. Brown to ever seek my forgiveness because I’m quite sure he doesn’t think he did anything wrong. I forgave him anyway because I realize that his basis for morality and ethics is subjective to the extreme.

    42. R. Kneubuhl
      July 12th, 2012 @ 2:10 pm

      Jesus gave warnings during his time here as a man. There is a line that we do not want to cross. Nevertheless, I believe that the grace of God is greater than we could ever imagine.

    43. JIG
      July 12th, 2012 @ 2:51 pm

      Once Saved Always Saved is a very dangerous thing as Dr. Brown has stated.

      HERE IS THE PROBLEM I HAVE;

      Calvinists state that if a person is saved, then they are always saved, and they if somehow they “leave” or “backslide completely” then they were never really saved in the first place.

      NOW, my problem is, if someone has been “saved” and they DEMONSTRATE the fruit of the spirit, works, and live and lead Godly holy lives, and they show complete submission to God and to his will, and they fall away THEY WERE NEVER SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE? How then were they able to obtain the fruit of the spirit without their salvation and live a Godly life if they were not truly saved?

      The Apostle Paul himself said that he could be a castaway.

      By God’s mercy and grace we will make it to be with him.

    44. ron david metcalf
      July 12th, 2012 @ 3:52 pm

      The Light Spectrum model has worked well for me, except for ‘the synagogue of satan’. So first we have to distinguish between the True and counterfeit. The latter is like a vertex or whirlpool drawing everything into it in destruction, like the very big black holes observed by astronomy. The OT calls this the the bowl of Jerusalem turned upside-down (can’t hold anything good). But going to the very small, Light itself (a seed), if you complete the circle of the rainbow, you find Red= outer court, Yellow= inner court, Blue= sanctuary (Temple, holy place; blue being the hottest flame, but also water from two volatile elements= H2O). So if you’re In the Light, you are Saved; but there is also ‘outer darkness’ to those who have had knowledge of the Truth, but who won’t believe. So, to walk down the seven steps back into the world would be a deliberate process. ‘Riding the fence’ is a much simpler model; falling to one side or the other more accidental. Elihu in the book of Job says GOD gives everyone at least two or three chances; this would be the big attention-getters beyond everyday persuasion. There are a lot of hard-headed people out there (I raise my hand); so the Holy Spirit must instruct us on what will reach the heart. Serving GOD has not been easy, but I have found Purpose; it doesn’t make sense to me how someone would think they could find favor with the One who made them by doing this or that.
      In Him, Ron M.

    45. Jack Wasson
      July 12th, 2012 @ 4:40 pm

      I continually marvel at your amazing patience with some very difficult callers. But, it’s nice to see you have a “limit” and you were almost (but not quite) there with your “guest” pastor on the subject of “Once Saved, Always Saved.” You were NOT imagining it. Every time you, OR a listener would introduce a relevant scripture, the “guest” Pastor became agitated and wanted to quickly go somewhere else. (The young man who introduced Rom. 11:22 made a valid point). Typically, it appeared, your guest sought refuge, not in another scripture but in the “logical” (?) construct of his theological position. THIS is what makes it difficult to try to “discuss” scripture with those who hold unscriptural positions. They doggedly cling to positions which are NOT scriptural. “My mind is made up! Don’t confuse me with (the scriptures).” Your frustration was shared by us, the listeners, I assure you. The most frustrating part is when these individuals come from denominations/churches which maintain they are “strict” interpreters of the scripture. Hang in there, my dear brother, He never promised a rose garden, only a good harvest!

    46. Brian
      July 12th, 2012 @ 7:02 pm

      Adam,

      Upon your reply, you noted that “all men” found in Tutus 2:11 cannot be fully understood in your contextual meaning unless you insert, (these classes of) men. I do understand that this the classic Calvinistic approach to various scriptures (i.e., 1 Timothy 2:4); hence, I find this kind of eisegesis to rest on a shaky platform – something that even Charles Spurgeon refused to do. However, I would be glad to have this discussion with you in depth at another time, and on a different thread.

      I found your exegesis of James 5:19-20, to be a bit exaggerated and totally out of context in your interpretation. You said, ” Simple. Not everyone who professes belief in the truth is saved…” Thus implying that the context of this verse is speaking to one never having salvation in the first place. James writes:

      “Brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back…”

      This letter is addressed to those who are of the household of faith, and the important phrase to be noted is that “one turns him back…” How can you come back to a place that you have never been? James is clearly warning of the possible peril of a believer turning from the faith once obtained into a lifestyle of sin, which ultimately would result in the forfeiture of eternal life. The brother turning him back would save his “soul from death,” thus identifying the loss of salvation that he turned away from. N.T., Southern Baptist, scholar, A.T. Robertson, said of this passage that it is, “The soul of the sinner won back to Christ…” It is evident that one has to take great strides to imply that this passage says otherwise.

      I previously noted a thread (#25) from Genesis to Revelation positing the position that G-d’s dealings with man have always been on a conditional basis. Your claim that I have destroyed the meaning of the new covenant is baseless simply because salvation has always been by grace from which G-d thus initiates, along with the condition of man’s acceptance unto obedience leading to salvation. Thus, you cited the book of Hebrews in contrast to my point; however, this actually substantiates my position of a conditional salvation established in this wonderful new covenant.

      “And having been perfected, He (Jesus) became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him” (Hebrews 5:9). (Conditional indeed!)

      Not only that, but you cited several verses specifically from Hebrews 10. In doing so, I would like to take your citation a step further, as it would be important to note that seven times the author uses inclusive language in his writing up to verse 26, and ten times thereafter. This indicates that the writer was undoubtedly speaking to fellow believers.

      (Vs.10) “By that will ‘we’ have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

      (Vs.15) “But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to ‘us’…”

      (Vs.19) “Therefore, ‘brethren,’ having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,”

      (Vs.22) “Let ‘us’ draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith…”

      (Vs.23) “Let ‘us’ hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering…”

      (Vs.24) “And let ‘us’ consider one another in order to stir us love and good works.”

      (Vs.25) “Not forsaking the assembling of ‘ourselves’ together…”

      (Vs.26-27) “If ‘we’ deliberately keep on sinning after ‘we’ have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of G-d.”

      Once again, Adam, since you believe that salvation is unconditional to the believer and that it is impossible for a follower of Christ to forfeit eternal life, I would appreciate a concise exegesis of verse 26, seeing that the author posits the possibility of the forfeiture of salvation to perdition, to any “Christian” who turns away from following after the Lord into a sinful lifestyle.

      Shalom,
      Brian

    47. David Roberts
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:16 pm

      “He that blesses himself thinking to himself, ‘I shall have peace, even though I follow the dictates of my heart… The Lord would not spare him; for then the anger of the Lord and His jealousy would burn against that man, and every curse that is written in this book would settle on him, and the Lord would blot out his name from under heaven.”
      Deuteronomy 29:19-20

      That is precisely what many “Christians” are doing. People who comfort themselves saying to themselves, my eternity is secure, even though I follow the lust of my own heart.

    48. Ray
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:19 pm

      So what about somebody who began the Christian journey, on his way to everlasting glory, to be with Christ in his Church which shall be forever preserved in the presence of the King eternal?

      What if he should fall away, or is that not at all possible?

      Certainly he may fall at times and by God’s grace get back up again. He might at times become confused, disoriented, or seem to be lost for a moment, and find his way back on the right path with the help of his guide, the help of the holy Spirit.

      But what of those who once having began in the truth, if they should be overcome by evil to such a measure that they abide there in it?

      What if they should die in their many sins? What if they forgot they were once made clean and now don’t seem to know the difference between something clean or something unclean?

      What if they don’t know of their wretched condition?

      Would it be because they forgot the right way after so long a time walking the wrong way?

      Or is that not at all possible?

      What about the one who presently rejects every truth he hears that would shed light upon his dark path….is he a sheep or a goat…presently?

      And what if he should die in that present condition, being one who no longer would hear what is right?

      What if he in the twinkling of an eye, should appear before the Lord? Would he still be in that condition?

      If so, what then?

      Or is that simply not at all possible? Could such a thing simply not happen?

      But what if it did happen? What would be the consequences of it?

      The Lord said he would separate the sheep from the goats, didn’t he? (Matt 25:32)

    49. David Roberts
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:21 pm

      If a Christian is filled with the Holy Spirit, and demonstrates the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then later on lives in such a way that Calvinists will say they were never saved in the first place, isn’t that blaspheming the work of the Holy Spirit? Because you have to deny that the Holy Spirit was ever at work in their life. Isn’t that blasphemy?

    50. Ray
      July 12th, 2012 @ 10:45 pm

      Being saved seems to indicate one will be doing what the Lord says. Matt 25 / I Sam 25.

      When I think through any sin, especially the ones where we have known better but didn’t do better, it does seem to be blasphemy. Maybe it was simply rebellion. But what if we walk through a situation of rebellion, calling things as they are or at least as best as we can see what they are?

      Maybe every sin is blasphemy. All evil is somehow connected isn’t it? One thing is connected to so many other things.

    51. Garry David Andreano
      July 13th, 2012 @ 12:12 am

      I think there is a false dichotomy in this discussion. Dr. Brown asked a trick question probably without even knowing it. The question is:

      “What happens if a saved person living in sin, dies in his sinful rejection of God?”

      The reason why the problem is in the question is because God would never allow a saved person to die in their sin, so the question is invalid. It’s like asking “Can God create a rock so big He can’t lift it?” Scripture says “He who has begun a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST.” It is impossible to escape Sanctification. Impossible. I’m sorry, you can’t fall away from grace by dying in your sin, because it is impossible for a Christian to die in their sin. A prodigal son will always return to the father.

    52. Mark Phillips
      July 13th, 2012 @ 5:23 am

      Adam,you may have been misinformed.

      Unike Michael,I do believe POTS strengthens hands to sin ; in the case of the so-called ‘Magisterial Reformers’ to the point they thought they could ask the Magistrate to harm people. That’s quite a ‘license to sin’ is it not ? (Did you find such a strategy in the Book of Acts ? Can you imagine what Paul would have said,if Barnabus has suggested such a method.)

      I have a man steeped in Calvinism in my town ; after reading Leonard Verduin’s book a few years back,he said he had hitherto been led to believe different things. You seem to have been fed similar information. This man also said he did not wish to read that book again,and has persisted in Calvinism.

      Let me give you two quotes from Leonard Verduin’s TREMENDOUS book,and then simply direct you to it on Amazon. I then hope you will buy the book,read it objectively,and think very carefully above Matthew 12:33-37. (There is an enormous amount of fallible material about the narrow Way being written every year ; best to limit oneself to those who loved their enemies.)

      Check out these quotes :

      They [the leaders of the 'Magisterial Reformation' - the men behind POTS] constantly urged the magistrate to draw the blood of the opposition’ (Chapter 1).

      ‘The burning of Servetus….was a deed for which Calvin must be held largely responsible….He [Calvin] maneuvered it from start to finish’ (Chapter 1).

      http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/157978934X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342174504&sr=1-1&keywords=leonard+verduin

      Do get the book Adam,be informed.

      Adam,may you walk with Messiah Jesus in white,and be instrumental in helping many others walk with Him too.

    53. ron david metcalf
      July 13th, 2012 @ 6:39 am

      Ray,
      My firstborn son, though born with CP, was given a tremendous mantle of impartation fresh out of the (then new) Toronto Blessing when he was fifteen; but there was part of him that always wanted the world also. Apparently, from loneliness, he made a pact with satan with a friend who was supposed to be helping him; or else fear was the open door that allowed the demonic entry that began to steal his mind when he was 17 1/2. Satan is a dirty dog who won’t play fair; yet this License deal needs to be explored much further than it has (assuming you still believe in Deliverance). But GOD has continued to show grace to him in astonishing ways, even while the battle rages. How much longer? Don’t know; just giving my report.
      My daughter was trained to be a ‘Mary’ (Magdalene)-type intercessor, but has backslidden some the past couple of years, being removed from the intensity that fed her from the outside, without training her to persevere from the inside. She had a dream a few days ago that hopefully scared and shocked her back to her commitment to her family and her Bridegroom. No matter how good company we keep, our vows to GOD are personal; we stand before our Judge alone. “The (reverence) of the LORD is the beginning of Wisdom”.
      In Him, Ron M.

    54. Brian
      July 13th, 2012 @ 10:06 am

      Garry (Ref. #51),

      Just for clarification sake, you said,

      ” It is impossible to escape Sanctification. Impossible. I’m sorry, you can’t fall away from grace by dying in your sin, because it is impossible for a Christian to die in their sin.”

      It appears that your position runs against the warnings that Paul cited to several churches, in that he warned present followers of Christ of the danger of eternal judgment if they were to turn back into a lifestyle of disobedience. Please note the following:

      “For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and G-d. Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of G-d comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light…” (Ephesians 5:5-8).

      This statement runs in complete contrast to your position and would make this warning completely out of place and would have no purpose at all, since it would be impossible for a (former) Christian to die in their sin. Paul was consistent in delivering this warning throughout the churches as noted in the following: Colossians 3:4-7, and Galatians 5:19-21.

      How do you reconcile such passages in regards to your above statement?

      Shalom,
      Brian

    55. Salvatore Mazzotta
      July 13th, 2012 @ 2:38 pm

      Mark Phillips wrote:

      Adam,may you walk with Messiah Jesus in white,and be instrumental in helping many others walk with Him too.

      Mark, May I ask why it is that an unregenerate man wants people to walk with Jesus?

      The apostle John writes in 1 John 4:7-12:

      Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

      According to this, the unregenerate love neither God nor the brethren.

      Also, you have not addressed the point that Adam and I have both made: You are using attempting to use a logical fallacy to disprove Perseverance of the Saints. If the Scriptures arte the word of God, and God cannot lie, and the Scriptures teach POTS, then it is true; regardless of how many people you can point to who held to this doctrine who were sinful men.

      This goes for every doctrine that Christian hold. Establish your point from Scripture. And appeals to this or that theologian or book is not the same thing.

    56. Jonathan
      July 13th, 2012 @ 5:12 pm

      Salvatore, I am not sure what Mark means by unregenerate, so I can’t really comment on that. But I agree with your statements about establishing a point from Scripture. But while you say that if the Scriptures teach POTS, then it is true, you have not attempted to establish that it does. I and others have listed numerous Scriptures that we believe seem to indicate that it does not and in fact seems to teach against it. (Specifically posts of mine are # 16 and 17 and some posts by others are # 14 and 46) Again, I agree with you that we must establish our points from Scripture. If we cannot do that than an appeal to any other source is of little effect.

    57. Ray
      July 13th, 2012 @ 7:09 pm

      I don’t think it wise to believe one is not in need of any kind of salvation simply because God has been working within them to will and to do of his good pleasure.

      God may do wonderful things through his people, yet this doesn’t necessarily mean that such a one is not in need of repentance.

      Though God is faithful to continue his good work within us, I believe we also need to be faithful in order to attain unto our final salvation.

      Now it’s God and his grace that provides that opportunity for salvation, but I don’t believe he leaves us out of it. I believe we all have a part to play in our being saved.

      So what of those who will say that they did many wonderful things in the Lord’s name, and yet he will deny them, saying he never knew them? (Matt 7:23)

      Did they say they did those works but were lying to the Lord, or did they indeed do those works by him but denied him later on and fell away into evil?

    58. Dan1el
      July 13th, 2012 @ 11:11 pm

      Gary David Andreano,
      Your belief that “God wouldn’t let a believer die in their sin” is a theoretical one — you cannot say for certain that God wouldn’t let a believer die in sin, because of the way life and death work (i.e.: you’re not on the other side, when people “pass on”; and you aren’t standing on God’s Word — I don’t think, at least — in believing God wouldn’t let believers die in sin).

    59. ron david metcalf
      July 14th, 2012 @ 9:50 am

      Jeremiah argued alone against the OSAS position; the royal prophets were all convinced that Father GOD would never forsake His Bride Judah. After all, hadn’t He forgiven them at least 470 (70X7) times? But Hosea shows that even after the divorce of Israel, GOD was willing to take them back.
      How does this relate to Jesus and the Church? 1) GOD NEVER CHANGES. 2) Jesus is GOD (Three-in-One). In like manner, John in Revelation shows us that perhaps the majority of the established church will fall away and become the whore of Babel (Babylon; this is subject to interpretation); and again a Remnant will remain of the Faithful Tribe Together with the Faithful Church (key word: ZION). Though a bit controversial, this gives a clear warning of Salvation as a Personal Marriage Covenant rather than latching onto tradition.
      In Him, Ron M.

    60. Adam
      July 14th, 2012 @ 10:12 am

      Brian,

      I responded to your post here:

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2010/01/27/january-27-2010/comment-page-3/#comment-139590

      While I don’t mind discussing Calvinism with you, I do think we should respect Dr. Brown’s wishes, and use this thread to discuss Once Saved Always Saved. Thus, we should take our Calvinism discussion to a thread that is on the topic of Calvinism.

      God Bless,
      Adam

    61. Adam
      July 14th, 2012 @ 10:41 am

      Mark,

      I responded to your post here:

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2010/01/27/january-27-2010/comment-page-3/#comment-139595

      Again, I think we should keep discussion of Calvinism vs. Arminianism on a thread which deals with those issues, rather than this thread which is specifically about OSAS.

      God Bless,
      Adam

    62. Brian
      July 14th, 2012 @ 6:35 pm

      Adam (Ref. #60),

      I’m a bit surprised at your response, especially in thinking that I want to have a discussion of Calvinism with you on this thread. I would take it that you did not carefully read my last posting to you (Ref. #46), from which I said in the opening paragraph:

      “However, I would be glad to have this discussion with you in depth, at another time, and on a different thread.”

      You actually identified yourself as a Calvinist, and decided to exegete Titus 2:11, and its context utilizing that classic approach. It actually was not the verse or focus at hand; notwithstanding, you used seven (7) paragraphs to exegete that passage and only one (1) for that which I asked of you; hence, I thought it necessary to stay on topic.

      As far as your exegesis of James 5:19-20, if you want to leave it there, then I am fine with it, and take careful note of your response (Ref. #37).

      Again, as it may have been a slight oversight on your part, I would ask if you would re-read my previous post directed towards you, as noted above, to address the last paragraph, and its context.

      Shalom,
      Brian

    63. william lowery
      July 15th, 2012 @ 11:20 pm

      PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS: Since it is God’s purpose in election and the Lord Jesus Christ’s purpose in his death, to forgive the sins of the elect and unite them with Himself, those who are saved are given the power, through the Holy Spirit, to remain saved forever. It is impossible for one whom Christ has bought, the Father has called, and the Holy Spirit has sealed to ever be lost again. Christians do sin and must confess that sin to the Father. They have an advocate (one to plead their case), Christ Jesus, who is constantly making intercession for them to the Father, and obtaining forgiveness for every sin (I John :1). They are forgiven by God’s grace. Should Christians continue sinning that grace may increase? The lives of some would seem to indicate that is what they believe. The Apostle Paul compares it to the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:20-21 and Romans 6 tells us that if one is truly raised from being dead in sins to the newness of life in Christ, we are no longer bound (compelled without escape) to sin. The unsaved are bound to sin and will sin continuously. “For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.” II Corinthians 5:21. Although the saved will commit sins, while they are still in their fleshly bodies, they are no longer bound to sin; Christ has made it possible for them to become the righteousness of God and escape sin. The saved are instructed throughout the Bible to flee from sin and not let sin reign in them. Those who are saved will grow to hate sin and will grow to be more like Christ. For some, it is a very slow process of trials, prayer, and study. For others, it is a very rapid process. Nonetheless, the saved will be made like Christ, being completed at His return. There are some who may appear to be Christians, but are fooling others, and possibly themselves. These will eventually fall away. When a saved person sins, God chastens him through guilty feelings, and the results of that sin. He will quickly become a very miserable person. If he still does not repent, the brethren are to discipline him and if he still persists…. God may take his life, rather than let him continue walking in sin, harming himself, others, and bringing a bad reproach on God’s name (Ezekiel 18:24). Those who are not saved, but are pretending, may for awhile seem to walk in righteousness, but will soon be made manifest that they are not of God. The dog will return to its vomit, the pig to its wallow! Does not say the sheep will transform back to a dog or pig! It seems that many in this thread have little confidence in the Lords power to complete that which HE ALONE STARTED! Faith verse Unbelief is the issue………not sin…….HE TOOK THAT(sin) ALL AWAY 2000 yeas ago….what don’t you,all understand about that! HEB 4:1……Let us therefore fear, lest, a PRONISE being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
      Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
      Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were FINISHED from the foundation of the world.
      Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
      Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
      Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: (not disobedience)
      Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
      Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
      Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
      Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own WORKS, as God [did] from his.
      Hbr 4:11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that REST, lest any man fall after the same example of UNBELIEF.
      Have you entered into His rest……..or because of unbelief…..are you still striving to stay true, do good works, crucify your PRIDE, self-righteousness…FEARFUL OF being dis-qualitifed…..you will say…I have perfect peace ..BECAUSE…..look I don’t habitually sin….oh so God will let you in on that basics….but the BIGGIE sin is failing to believe the PROMISE VERSE 1 When God finished on the 7 day…..it was finished….God does not dwell in time…His plan was complete before He created the first Rae of light..even Jesus was (in God eyes) crucified BEFORE the foundations of the world were laid….all the names of the elect were written in the Lambs book of life….never to be erased……because we ARE the overcomes BECAUSE HE IS IN US and that makes us MORE that conquers…who is he that over comes the world..but he that believes on the Name of the Son of God…..You’all better come off that spirit of unbelief!!!!!!!! ‘ Fear unbelief..not resting in His finished work and Promise….Quit mixing the covenants! You can not have it both ways! Saved by works ala.. Pawson,..Pelagiamus, ..Finney,.. Wesley….or saved by Grace
      …Jesus!

    64. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 16th, 2012 @ 9:25 am

      William, it is absolute nonsense to put men like John Wesley or David Pawson in the “Pelagius” camp, much worse to say that they (or I) preached “saved by works”! With statements like that, it’s hard to take a single word you’re saying here seriously. But at least it underscores the unbiblical radicality of your position.

    65. Jeffrey C. Long
      July 16th, 2012 @ 10:35 am

      Wesley said: Rom 11:22 Else shalt thou – Also, who now “standest by faith,” be both totally and finally cut off.

      So, he also saw this serious admonition extending to the individuals and not only to the collective.

      Years ago I read the commentary of a famous Nazarene who opened up the Arminian perspective on all of this verse by verse. Since I had been raised in a Presbyterian church it was all new to me, and of course before I received the Baptism of the Holy Ghost (PNEUMA HAGIOS), I had little to zero interest in spiritual things anyway.

      In the early days after college (where I was saved) I loved nothing better than to visit Bible bookstores, where I would browse and purchase books. I seemed to notice that almost all the stores were heavy on Calvinist theology with nothing on an Arminian persepctive. I wanted to study something about Arminianism but literally coul not find anything.

      The once-saved doctrine was ubiquitous…but after having received my own spirit Baptism–and being cognizant of my own weaknesses–I just could not get it to “click” with my spirit and the Word of God overall.

      Once-saved-always-saved will pave the way for Pelagianism and modern day manifestations such as seen in the Metropolital church, and others.

      To me it is parallel to Darwinism in its appeal and the complex theological/critical opus which has been ingeniously built upon it.

      But, like Darwinism, it is a relatively recent development near the end of this Dispensation and that historical perspective alone calls us to caution.

      Individual cases of lost loved ones are of course difficult in any event for any of us to deal with or even bring a word of judgment about. There is no doubt that OSAS makes preaching funerals less distressing for those who believe it. This of course, if the deceased is not truly saved, brings a false sense of security to the family and friends and can itself further entrap them in a church which preaches this as a foundational doctrine.

    66. Jonathan
      July 16th, 2012 @ 10:53 am

      William, first off, I want to thank you for focusing on Scriptures. I believe it is important to focus on what Scripture says as opposed to what this or that person says or as opposed to starting from some theological construct.

      I agree with everything in your first sentence. But just because someone has been given the power to remain saved forever does not mean that they cannot choose to do otherwise. I don’t believe Scripture backs up your second sentence and that is why I disagree with it. You mentioned about the forgiveness of sin available to us in 1 John 1. But you must notice that the forgiveness mentioned is based on certain clauses. Look at the clauses in verses 7 and 9 that start out with “if”. These clauses clearly make the point that what comes after the clauses are conditional upon the clauses being met. So we can’t say that they are unconditional or that it is impossible for us not to hold up our part of the bargain.

      I furthermore agree with a lot of the things you say after presenting that verse. But I believe you are taking some of those things a little too far and in doing so you are expressing ideas that the Scripture does not back up.

      For instance, I wholeheartedly agree with you when you say that if one is truly raised from being dead in sins to the newness of life in Christ, we are no longer bound (compelled without escape) to sin.” But just because we are no longer compelled without escape to sin, does not mean that we cannot make the choice not only to sin but to sin habitually and unrepentantly and walk away from the newness of life that has been given to us.

      You also say that “Nonetheless, the saved will be made like Christ, being completed at His return.” And I believe that to be true. Again, though, I believe that is conditional upon us continuing to abide in the vine as it says in John 15. It clearly indicates in verse 6 that it is possible to not continue to abide in the vine. Verse 7 contains another clause that starts out with an “if”.

      You also say “There are some who may appear to be Christians, but are fooling others, and possibly themselves. These will eventually fall away.” And I would again, agree wholeheartedly with what you said. But the fact that there are some who claim to be Christians but, in fact, had no real root, does not mean that there are not others who DID have a real root who also have not fallen away. We can clearly see that it is the case that those with a real root can also fall away. For an example from Scripture, we can look at the parable of the sower.

      In the Parable of the Sower in Matt 13 we can notice that the seed that fell on the rocky soil did not take root. From the outward appearance it would seem that the seed was working as it sprouted up. But there was no real root. We can see the same is true of the ones you were speaking of. But there is yet another kind of soil that is described that does not continue. Notice that the seed sown among thorns is not described by Scripture to not take root as it does for the seed that fell on the rocky soil. Rather, the seed sown among thorns is said to have “become unfruitful” (verse 22). That means that it was producing fruit at first. The Word of God (the seed) (which we can see from John 1 that Jesus is the Word of God) can’t be producing fruit unless it (or He) has taken root and it can’t have taken root if the person was not a Christian in the first place. Luke 8:14 (a parallel passage) said that the seed sown among thorns, “bring no fruit to maturity”. Again, this implies that the seed was starting to produce fruit in the first place. So I believe this tells us that someone who has let the Word of God take root in their lives and is beginning to produce Godly fruit, can let the cares of this world choke it out.

      You also say, “When a saved person sins, God chastens him through guilty feelings, and the results of that sin. He will quickly become a very miserable person.” I would agree that is true. But that doesn’t always mean that the person will repent. You also acknowledge that in your next statement. “If he still does not repent, the brethren are to discipline him and if he still persists…. God may take his life, rather than let him continue walking in sin, harming himself, others, and bringing a bad reproach on God’s name (Ezekiel 18:24).” I would also agree that someone can die as the result of unrepentant sin and that in some cases it can be a judgment from God. But that particular verse neither confirms nor denies that the person has lost their salvation. I believe there are other verses that do indicate that a saved person can lose their salvation.

      You say that “The dog will return to its vomit, the pig to its wallow! Does not say the sheep will transform back to a dog or pig!” When you speak about sheep, I am assuming you are referring to John 10. But we can see in verse 27 that it says “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” So if a sheep no longer does these things, then, based on this verse, they are no longer His sheep.

      You say, “It seems that many in this thread have little confidence in the Lords power to complete that which HE ALONE STARTED!” But I think you are misunderstanding. We don’t have little confidence in the Lord’s power. But we believe that, based on Scripture that the Lord has allowed things to happen that He did have the power to stop because He has allowed for us to make choices that go against His will. It does not make Him any less powerful because He has chosen not to use His power to do certain things.

      An example of this can be found by the fact that Scripture indicates that God is “not willing that any should perish”(2 Pet 3:9; 1 Tim 2:4; Ezek 33:11). Yet because He has allowed that to happen does not mean that He is not powerful enough to stop it but rather that He has given us the ability to do things that are in violation of what He wants us to do.

    67. Jonathan
      July 16th, 2012 @ 11:14 am

      To continue: I agree with the first part of your statement when you say “Faith verse Unbelief is the issue………not sin…….HE TOOK THAT(sin) ALL AWAY 2000 yeas ago” But I would say that unbelief is the very root cause of sin. Satan tries to get us to sin by getting us to stop having faith in God; that He is who He says He is, that He does what He says He will do and that He truly loves us and wants the best for us. So since one leads to the other, I cannot agree with the second part of the statement. While He gave us the power to overcome sin, He did not take away our ability to sin or to become again ensnared in sin.That is why the warnings throughout Scripture(such as those in Hebrews 4 that warn about coming up short of God’s promise of rest) are found in Scripture. You don’t warn someone about something they can’t do.

      I also don’t understand your comments when you say “Quit mixing the covenants! You can not have it both ways! Saved by works ala.. Pawson,..Pelagiamus, ..Finney,.. Wesley….or saved by Grace” I don’t understand this, both due to reasons expressed by Dr. Brown and also due to the fact that you seem to be saying there are covenants of God that are works based. That is simply not the case.

    68. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 16th, 2012 @ 11:16 am

      William, based on your comments, is it possible that you are a false convert who will one day fall away? Or is possible that sinful habits in your life indicate that you are a false convert who has never truly experienced what it means to be dead to sin and alive to God? I’m just trying to understand the implications of some of your statements.

    69. ron david metcalf
      July 16th, 2012 @ 6:47 pm

      Does ‘election’ imply judgment? Calvinists would argue from this ‘secure grace’ position; yet Jesus of Nazareth specifically warned us not to judge. Paul modified this a bit, to make room for bishops and deacons to maintain order, as his ex-Pharisee position that the Law had been surpassed (and there is some shifting in position, as with Timothy) left him with some difficult circumstances in the early Gentile congregations. Do we agree on this?
      The modern phrase I am familiar with is “fruit-inspection”; but this waters down the Calvinist beginnings of the US quite a bit (Mass. Bay Puritans v the Thanksgiving Pilgrims, eg). I know I deal in general concepts; just trying to define the boundaries. Finney strayed close to the ‘works’ ditch; but there are many modern preachers who have come close to the ‘cheap grace’ ditch, if not fallen in. Calvinists can be severe on others (‘savages’) while giving too much license to themselves; this is an important discussion concerning leadership.
      In Him, Ron M.

    70. william lowery
      July 17th, 2012 @ 12:48 am

      Oh.. slow of hearts to believe all that is written……..Is salvation a gift from God? Of course it is. The faith that believes in Christ is itself also a gift from God, as well as the changed heart that makes us willing to receive Him? James 1:17,18 tell us: “Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.” “A man can receive NOTHING, except it be given him from heaven.” Is God the PRIME CAUSE of ALL things? Has He named every star and planet…can a sparrow fall to the ground without His knowledge…..did He (as some believe) wind the creation up, set it in motion and now reacts to man and man’s independent actions? Really……You seem to think that the Lord Jesus Christ is like a politician hoping for your vote. He presents His case, argues His good points and leaves it up to you to make the final decision as to whether you will “accept or reject” His offer. Is this a biblical perspective or just the result of the natural, humanistic mind of man? I too once believed that I had made up my own mind…. and cast my vote for Jesus; that is, until God began to open up His words to me and show me the truth about ….Who chose whom and why I had received Christ. Why not LOOK at some scriptures; In John 1:11-13 we read: “He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of(the will of) God.” Why do some not receive Him and others do receive Him? T The answer is found in many passages. John3:27… John the Baptist tells us: “A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven”. (quoted above) We can receive only what is given to us. Jesus said: “Therefore said I unto you, that NO man can come unto me, except it were (before the foundation of the world) given unto him of my Father” John 6:65. Some have used Romans 5:17 to support their idea that we must choose to accept what Christ offers us. It says: “For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one: much more they which RECEIVE abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.” This verse is speaking about receiving the grace of God. Let’s compare this verse with another that likewise speaks of the grace of God and tells us WHEN, in the plan of God, this grace was given. In 2 Timothy 1:9, 10 we read “God who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and GRACE, WHICH WAS GIVEN US(us who? the whole world or the elect?) in Christ Jesus BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.” This same truth is revealed by comparing two verses that speak of our adoption as sons of God. In Galatians 4 we read that when the fulness of time was come God sent forth his Son, “To redeem them that were under the law, that we might RECIEVE the ADOPTION of sons” Galatians 4:5. Yet in Ephesians 1:5 we read that we were “predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.” Again, it is clear that we can only receive that to which we were predestined and was given us by God our Father. And Mike quickly cut me off (in fact that was pretty much the program) When I brought up the FACT that a child adopted into a Jewish family…could NEVER BE CUT OFF….a natural child which was rebellious could be turned over to the elders, taken out side the wall and be put to death ie. cut off….and so it was… Jesus the natural Son… put to death for….. the adopted sons sins who will never be cut off! It is hard for me to believe Mike doesn’t understand the whole type of the sacrificial Lamb……the Lamb had to be PERFECT not the one who brought the lamb….he was sinful thats why he had to bring the lamb…Laid his hand on the lambs head and the lamb became his …SUBSTITUTE….he went away Justified….problem it was only good for a year….HOW enter Jesus….THE PERFECT LAMB OF GOD….and what did he do? ANSWER ME THAT? Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put (what does that mean) away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Hbr 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:(sinners the Great White Throne….believers The judgment seat of Christ) Hbr 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many;(not all, the elect) and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
      Hbr 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
      Hbr 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
      Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath PERFECTED FOR EVER them that are sanctified. (We are not on probation as you teach)
      Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
      Hbr 10:16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
      Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. (After one is drawn, offered the Gift, is given faith to receive…God has promised to remember no more their sins)
      Hbr 10:18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
      Hbr 10:19 ¶ Having THEREFORE, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
      Hbr 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; Yes I know well the last of the chapter…..you will read it thru the lens of the law…….but those with the revelation of grace will know that the writer is warning these jewish believers who are undergoing sever temptation to return to the temple worship and customs to avoid persecution..if they sinned willfully (went back because of unbelief) history tells us that those that recanted were made to stand over a slaughtered hog , spit on the hogs blood and say in front of witness …I spit on the blood of Christ….there of course is no more sacrifice!…. again I submit…IF one can lose ones salvation because of post conversion sin….then you , myself, all that I know will be lost…for none of us are without sin…..of course you could try and define….how much sin one MUST sin to be disqualified…..you will say any sin that is not confessed and forsaken……then I ask what if the confession is insincere….failing to come forth before death….what about the sins others see you are clearly guilty of (as well as God) but like the Pharisees you don’t SEE them yourself…are they still not sins! Your theology leaves you in a heap of trouble…unless you want to proclaim your own righteousness and sinlessness….which is probably the BIGGEST SIN OF ALL! For me and my household…..we are going with the LAMB.blessed LAMB!

    71. Ken
      July 17th, 2012 @ 5:57 am

      I wonder why Paul wrote this if OSAS is fact?, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)and again he wrote. Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, (that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.)

      Peace Love Joy

    72. Ken
      July 17th, 2012 @ 5:59 am

      I wonder why Paul wrote this if OSAS is fact?, Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, (work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.)and again he wrote. Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, (that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.)

      Peace Love Joy

    73. ron david metcalf
      July 17th, 2012 @ 8:53 am

      William,
      it seems you are contending that we have nothing to do with our own salvation- I’m not talking about ‘works’- I’m talking about repenting, turning to Jesus, and declaring Him Savior and Lord. If some are ‘predestined’ to this and others are condemned to damnation before they are born, which is a Calvinist stance, then the ‘elect’ have a right to go around with their noses in the air not caring about anyone except themselves- and I have seen this plenty of times. I contend that this is odious in GOD’s eye. What about, “GOD is not willing that any should perish?”
      In Him, Ron M.

    74. Dan1el
      July 17th, 2012 @ 8:59 am

      Ken,
      Not that I agree, but they will say (without any Biblical precedent) that such “warnings” are merely a “means” to keep the saints persevering – that any warning issued to believers against falling away from the faith (along the lines of the Romans 11:17-23 one: believers can be, after being graft in, cut off in the same manner as the Jews were FOR UNBELIEF, which is a statement Paul is making that it is a 100% certainty that believers CAN fall into unbelief) is just a “means” to keep the “truly saved” “perseverant”. In reality, not a single Calvinist I’ve met has been able to answer this question.

      Think about it: if the way they interpret Romans 9 is correct (i.e.: if grace – indeed, the WORD OF GRACE, by which sinners are saved; made saints – was/is “irresistible”), then Paul is contradicting himself in warning (clearly) believers (yes, even “true” believers – who’ve been “grafted in” through faith) of the POSSIBILITY of falling away!!!!

      Romans 11:17-23
      17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

      22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

    75. Ken
      July 17th, 2012 @ 9:50 am

      Dan1el, So true..Its sad how satan’s theology, (do as thou wilt) can and is deceiving many. I guess thats the path to life is narrow and few fine it.

    76. Ken
      July 17th, 2012 @ 9:52 am

      correction : I guess that’s why the path to life is narrow and few fine it

    77. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 17th, 2012 @ 10:41 am

      Just a reminder, folks, that when you interact with Bill Lowery — which I welcome, and I welcome his comments here as well — you are not dealing with a standard Calvinist. His views are quite extreme when it comes to the biblical calling to live a holy life, and where his views are not extreme, his rhetoric is. Just FYI (or, a reminder).

    78. ron david metcalf
      July 17th, 2012 @ 11:00 am

      The Pharisees were so secure in their position that they missed the meaning of Yeshua Messiah’s ministry on earth completely- which is why He called them “snakes and vipers”. You can’t stereotype ‘Calvinists’ any more than any other group; we need to be ‘secure’ in our faith!
      The danger lies in an Ahab spirit of selfish exploitation; some of the ‘barons’ of wealth you find in American history books who shaped our modern era, and the ruthless pursuit of money at the expense of anyone and everyone. If we want to genuinely repent for the ‘sins of our nation’, this must be taken into account; for this gives License to the witchcraft of Jezebel; the spiritual forces fueling our present political debate. I have been cursed physically (disassociation, slander) for bringing this up:
      I am glad that the Church has been disentangled from Republican money that has made it the tail and not the head. We must stand above bribes to declare a righteous verdict.
      In Him, Ron M.

    79. Dan1el
      July 17th, 2012 @ 11:11 am

      RDM,
      Who were you addressing?

    80. Dan1el
      July 17th, 2012 @ 11:33 am

      Ken,
      Not sure Calvinists classify as “do as thou wilt”ers – I’ve met Calvinists full of the Lord; I just don’t agree with what they believe (at least, not *part of it).

    81. Ken
      July 17th, 2012 @ 12:38 pm

      Dan1el, wasn’t for Calvinist, but people who say they are saved or know the Lord but continue in a life of sin justifying it by an OSAS doctrine not producing fruit no life changed loving there sin more then there G_d being deceived believing a lie and being condemned there by.

      Peace Love Joy

    82. Dan1el
      July 17th, 2012 @ 12:45 pm

      Ken,
      Oh.

    83. ron david metcalf
      July 17th, 2012 @ 12:59 pm

      When i first starting blogging on these sites in Oct. last year, Jabez called my comments ‘cryptic’ because i wouldn’t go into detail. This isn’t pointed at Dr. Brown or anyone blogging here; yet associations in the body of Christ of like-minded believers can run deep for anyone who has been given a voice to speak (or write). It isn’t so much important who I am talking about, as what has happened in the last couple of decades or even last couple of centuries as to how Protestant Christianity has (hopefully) matured to find us at the place we are now. These open discussions I consider a Victory for the ‘sheep’; let us be diligent to keep these gates open.
      In Him, Ron M.

    84. Jonathan
      July 17th, 2012 @ 6:07 pm

      William, there are parts of your last comment that simply don’t make any logical sense. You quote John the Baptist (a man who spent his life preaching repentance, by the way) where he says in John 3:27 “John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it be given him from heaven.” Then you seem to spend the next portion of your comment trying to explain how a man really can’t execute the action of receiving. That doesn’t seem to add up.

      I really can’t picture God in a Godfather voice saying, “I’m gonna make him an offer he can’t refuse.” A gift, by its very definition is something that can either be accepted or refused.

      You are also correct when you say that faith is given as a gift from God. Scripture backs that up in Romans 12:3 “For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.”. So we see that this faith is given to “every man”. Yet obviously, as with salvation itself, this is also a gift that can be rejected.

      If we do receive that gift, we can’t take credit for that. I have used the following illustration in an earlier post. The whole world is being swept down the river of sin, the waters sweeping all humanity ever closer to the waterfall of eternal judgment. No matter how desperately we grasp at the banks of this river, we are incapable of pulling ourselves out of the deadly current that pulls us closer toward destruction. Yet we have an all-powerful rescuer. His name is Jesus. Unlike a human being with limited capabilities, our rescuer is able (and I believe Scripture indicates He is willing; John 1:7; John12:32; 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, John 3:16-17, John 12:47) to rescue every single person being swept down the river of sin. (In contrast with the view of limited atonement.) Yet He allows each person to decide whether they will accept His help to pull them out or whether they will resist and continue to be dragged down the river. We have no goodness, no faith, no knowledge on our own that enables us to be saved (Psa 130:3; Isa 64:6; Matt. 19:25-26; Rom 3:9-12). Yet He gives to everyone what is needed to either accept or reject Him (Rom 1:19; Titus 2:11). He calls out to everyone, offering to rescue them; but allows for a human to have free will.

      Now does the one who accepts the outstretched hand by grasping hold of it save themselves? Is it according to their own works that they are saved? In the most extreme literal sense, the argument can be made that they were saved because they grasped hold of the outstretched hand. But who would really make that claim? That person had two choices, accept the help that was offered to them or continue down the path of destruction. Yet if they grasped the outstretched hand of the rescuer, they could do nothing but surrender to his help as he pulled them out. They could have no leverage against the slippery slope of the riverbank even after they take hold of the rescuer’s hand. They are totally dependent upon him to pull them out. It was through no work of their own that they were saved, but only by accepting the work of another.

      I also have no problems with what is said in James 1:17 and 18. I agree that if it was not in God’s will for us to be born again, it wouldn’t happen. But again, we see from Scripture that God is “not willing that any should perish”, (2 Pet 3:9; 1 Tim 2:4; Ezek 33:11. So it is God’s will for everyone to be born again.

      So while it becomes evident that God allows certain things that are not within His will, that does not mean that I am a deist as you seem to imply by your comments. I don’t believe that God wound “the creation up, set it in motion and now reacts to man and man’s independent actions.” I believe God is very much active in creation and in the affairs of men. Just because he allows men to make decisions on certain things does not mean that He has totally left creation up to man’s thoughts and whims.

      You seem to imply that 2 Timothy 1:9, 10 that a choice to accept Christ would be considered works. But the verse does not say that and Romans 4:4-5 shows directly the opposite.

      And since you put it out as a topic, I feel free to address why I believe Dr. Brown interrupted you on the program. You or Dr. Brown can feel free to clarify, but it seemed to me that Dr. Brown was asking you specific questions about specific Scriptures and you were not answering those questions but were instead trying to go into extra-Biblical support for your position. The Jewish culture may have practiced certain customs in adoption as you were expressing. But it really did not prove your position or answer Dr. Brown’s specific questions that dealt with specific Scripture passages.

      As for Hebrews 10 and the historical context you give of the latter part of the chapter, I would say that such an instance as you described would definitely apply to the passage but would not be the only example that could be applied to it. Because the passage does not mention one sin and say that it is that sin as opposed to all others that is being discussed. So we can’t add to the Scripture by saying that is all that is being discussed.

      As far as your questions about how much sin can keep you from Heaven and what if you don’t see your sin and questions along those lines, I would simply say this. When God saved us, He came to live inside of us. We have Him communicating with us and in us. God knows our hearts even better than we do. It is He that will answer those questions in the final day. But we are assured that if we ask, seek, and knock that we will not be disappointed. Yes I will fall short and miss the mark. But I don’t have to worry about whether or not I will cross the line; because as long as I am truly seeking Him (and He will be the final judge about that) I will not cross that line. I am responsible to heed His calling and prompting and if I am dealing with sin when it is pointed out to me, even if I mess up at times, I will not fall short of the goal. Yet in all this, I have no room to boast, because it is not me but Christ in me that allows me to overcome sin.

      We can take comfort in that, but we must never dismiss nor minimize the warning and rebuking throughout Scripture by speakers such as Jesus and Paul to deal with sin and warn others about sin lest we fall short of the goal.

    85. Ray
      July 17th, 2012 @ 7:27 pm

      Something that comes to mind is Matt 6:22,23, and the surrounding verses.

      There are so many warnings from the scripture just as Jesus taught in the gospels.

      Once Jesus saves a soul, would to God that soul should always know that he is willing to save. Yet, we should fear knowing of his judgment, for what of the soul that has so rejected the instruction of his maker, having been in covenant with him?

      What if the way he has treated God should come back to him?

      Proverbs 1:28-31 comes to mind…So many warnings. The warnings of God are meant to keep his people safe, far from the ways of destruction and foolishness.

      There’s a warning from Hebrews that comes to mind also as well as something the apostle Paul said.

      I find those things much better to build on than some theological position on salvation that is so near to falling into destruction.

      I’m reminded again of the recurring dream a friend of mine told me of about a church that was built on the edge of a cliff with the rotting foundation. (Proverbs 2:16-18)

    86. ron david metcalf
      July 17th, 2012 @ 9:55 pm

      re: Marriage Covenant: GOD who made us will never cheat on us, but knows that we are fully capable of cheating on Him. This goes way beyond naughty kids; it is Life-threatening, “jealousy cruel as the grave”. We honor the Son; who knows the Father’s Love?
      No wonder the current battleground is over Marriage: kill the babies, no harm; debase the meaning of covenant procreation; who cares? But Jezebel was not thrown off her tower first; Ahab died protecting his interests (those who suppose they are king of the mountain sometimes deserve their strange final act); and his seventy sons also died (a gruesome record worth noting, but hard for me to place in a modern perspective, except perhaps as the ‘Arab spring’.) Does GOD still work on our behalf? Do we sit back and say, ‘Go for it’; or give it our 100% in battle?
      In Him, Ron M.

    87. william lowery
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:34 am

      I’m sorry my friends…in all due respect…your logic not to mention your interpretation of scripture is so skewed as to be commercial!…….Jonathan Rom 12:3 plainly says “to every man that is among YOU”..Paul was addressing a specify group of people…and the VERY context is to warn (everyone that is among you) NOT to think more highly of then selfs because they for no known reason have been given the gift of faith (a common them of Paul’s teaching to the elect, “why do you boast yourselves among your selves…what do you have that you did not receive?)…If Paul is stating a fact that all men get faith….how or why ….the word from Paul to… “not to think more highly of themselves?? Have you never asked yourself…WHY ME LORD?” IF..Christ had suffered and died for everyone who will ever be born, why would He die for those who have no possibility of ever being saved?… Only those whom God has chosen will be saved, which is seen in the scriptures dealing with election. If Christ died for everyone, why did He not pray for everyone? He prayed only for those whom the Father had given him. Jn 17… It would make absolutely no sense for Christ to die for those who cannot be saved. If he did, then on their account, his death would have failed to accomplish its purpose. Christ never fails, only those elected by God can be saved, since it is He who draws, makes alive, gives the faith which is the hand that simply receives eternal life, and clearly not everyone will be given this life. (we are not being swept donm a river drowning needing some one to give us a hand out or even lift us out as WE hold on……we are DEAD , DEAD AS Lazasures in the tomb…stinking , me for 23 years….until because I was one of those choosen before the foundation of the world, God arranaged circumanstances..to expose me to the voice of Christ, which called me out and INTO LIFE………..and if I could sit you down , and were you to tell me the truth…you and every saved soul will have the same story….how Jesus came to you, He the good Shepard, looking for HIS lost sheep…if you are His sheep HE WILL GET HIS sheep. AND never lose him! That my friend is our GOD!…….Now, that said.(they (the elect) overcame by the blood of the Lamb and the word of there testimony)(and that will ALL be how Jesus saved me, you ALL BY HIMSELF…NO BOASTING ALLOWED)… If Christ died for those who are not given to Him by the Father (John 17:9), then His death was not sufficient to save them. If our salvation is contingent upon our faith and acceptance, then His death is insufficient in itself and we would be saved by grace through our faith and our work of believing and accepting Christ.(allowing for us to boast) Eph. 2:8-9 establishes that neither the grace, nor faith is ours, but a gift of God. A gift is something that for some time one does not have, then it is given to that one, without the expectation of any kind of payment from the one who receives the gift, else it would not be a gift, but a purchase. It cannot be earned through any act. Hebrews 9:15 declares, “Therefore He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are CALLED may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.”

      According to this text who does Jesus”death redeem?

      Answer: The called.

      Christ’s work on the cross achieved all of the Divine purposes for it. The intent of the design was not merely to try to save all, but when all was said and done, the plan could fail for many because of that stubborn thing called “free will,” with the Savior sad for all eternity because many He died for received no benefit for all His labor. No, He died a satisfied Savior, giving Himself for His friends, for His sheep, for His people, for His Church, and fully accomplished the work of redemption for all in this number.

      All who are particularists (who believe that not everyone will be saved – that some people will in fact spend eternity in hell, which I assume you believe that as well ie. SOME will be in hell) so you also believe in some type of limitation to the atonement of Christ. The Arminian limits the atonement’s power, for it only becomes effectual through man’s cooperation; the Reformed person limits its extent, only redeems the elect….which John in Revelation said was a “GREAT company no man could number…for all the world…ever tribe tongue, nation, island, etc!” Now in closing just a couple of quotes from Charles Spurgeon who Dave Wilkerson called the greatest preacher of the 18th century;

      As C. H. Spurgeon said, “The doctrine of Holy Scripture is this, that inasmuch as man could not keep God’s law, having fallen in Adam, Christ came and fulfilled the law on the behalf of his people; and that inasmuch as man had already broken the divine law and incurred the penalty of the wrath of God, Christ came and suffered in the room, place, and stead of his elect ones, that so by his enduring the full vials of wrath, they might be emptied out and not a drop might ever fall upon the heads of his blood-bought people.” (Sermon 310 – “Christ our Substitute – New Park Street, Southwark)

      Elsewhere he preached, “I had rather believe a limited atonement that is efficacious for all men for whom it was intended, than an universal atonement that is not efficacious for anybody, except the will of man be joined with it.” (Sermon number 173 – Metropolitan Pulpit 4:121)

      In another sermon, Spurgeon said, “Once again, if it were Christ’s intention to save all men, how deplorably has He been disappointed, for we have His own evidence that there is a lake that burneth with fire and brimstone, and into that pit must be cast some of the very persons, who according to that theory, were bought with His blood. That seems to me a thousand times more frightful than any of those horrors, which are said to be associated with the Calvinistic and Christian doctrine of particular redemption.” (C. H. Spurgeon – Sermon 204 – New Park Street Pulpit 4:553)

      This doctrine of the particular redemption or definite atonement of Christ, speaks of God’s design in the atonement, and who it was God was intending to save when Christ went to the cross. Christ died as a substitute who bore the full weight of God’s wrath on behalf of His people, paying the penalty for their sin. Christ intended to save His sheep and actually secured everything necessary for their salvation. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, thereby guaranteeing their salvation.

    88. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:37 am

      William, quite an opening line: “I’m sorry my friends…in all due respect…your logic not to mention your interpretation of scripture is so skewed as to be commercial!” I’m sure it will generate some equally pointed rebuttals. And I imagine that you’re aware that some of the great Calvinists didn’t believe in “limited atonement” (or, “particular redemption”). But I’ll leave that to others who’ll be interacting with you.

    89. william lowery
      July 18th, 2012 @ 4:35 am

      Mark 4:12…….That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and [their] sins should be forgiven them.

    90. Mark Phillips
      July 18th, 2012 @ 5:33 am

      Just checking in here,not from my home computer.

      This thread is active,which is good to see,for I do.O not believe we are dealing with a side issue ; neither do I believe OSAS and POTS are unrelated (perhaps one might call them first cousins – having the same grandfather – Augustine). Both OSAS and.s POTS stem from a one-dimensional view on salvation,compared to the three-tense view in Holy Scripture.

      I believe POTS comes from a mixture of things : in particular,Augustine’s distorted understanding of election and predestination ; PLUS,the “Reformers’ ” unfamiliarity a scriptural reception of the Holy Spirit Himself and His nine gifts. Those two factors in particular have led to the license that is POTS. (They were trinitarian in creed,but binitarian in practice.)

      What do you think Paul would say to you,if you tried to tell him his team member Demas may never have been really saved ? For one thing,I believe Paul would have pointed to any GENUINE gifts of the Holy Spirit given to Demas.

      Today (for example),OSAS strengthens some believers to begin an affair with their neighbor ; 500 years ago,POTS strengthened the hands and loosened the tongues of the ‘Reformers’ – they thought they could have people harmed or even put to death.

      Predestination is not the problem,predestination is scriptursl ; the problem is Augustine’s distorted understanding of it ; indeed,an understanding with strenghthened his own hands for the use of coercion. Five hundred years ago,many sat in the Reformers’ pews by COERCION,today,many sit there by CUSTOM. (How repulsive do you think Paul would find the COERCIVE methods of Augustine and the Reformers ?)

      What is needed in America and Britain is truly trinitarian CONVERSION.

      For a very meaty book on scriptural predestination,see Roger and Paul’s MAGNUM OPUS :

      http://www.amazon.com/Strategy-Human-History-Roger-Forster/dp/1579102735/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342606758&sr=1-1&keywords=forster+human+history

      For a MAGNUM OPUS on truly trinitarian evangelism,see David Pawson’s most important book :

      http://www.amazon.com/Normal-Christian-Birth-Believers-Proper/dp/0340489723/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1342606843&sr=1-1&keywords=pawson+birth

      Those two books go a long way to vaccinating against both OSAS and POTS.

    91. william lowery
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:21 pm

      Please, Pawson’s 4 step plan to salvation..”NEVER tell anyone you are saved” for NO one knows… until waking up on the other side IF perchance you make it in……then and ONLY then can one say “I am saved” pawson What do you think Paul… “I KNOW in WHOM I have believed and am persuaded ” would say?… Pawson teaches legalistic salvation..repentance, faith, water baptism, and speaking in tongues as evidence of Holy Spirit baptism…..all four being NECESSARY …..for one starting the journey to salvation! Straight out of the UPC text book! So I guess you boys just woke up one sunny morning and said to yourself…self I believe I WILL get my self saved today….and so you said… Jesus come into my heart and save me (right NOW) and He obeyed you and came in your heart… and now (in your mind) by being obedient enough, repenting of misdeeds quick enough… HE must stay there…and IF (God forbid) you don’t fall into some trap the devil IS setting for you down the road, you might get in ….as Pawsons, Wesley, Finney, Armenia, Pelagius, taught!… Really?……. To believe that the ALMIGHTY commenced to create the Universe and salvation’s PLAN….without a plan….defies logic….tell me could Abraham have chose himself to be the father of faith, Moses COULD have turned aside from the burning bush, Jonah COULD have gotten away from God……. IF only he had tried a little harder…. Paul COULD have told Jesus on the road to Damascus…thanks but no thanks……UN APPREHEND ME!….. I mean I could go on and on…but you get the point (don’t you) Rom8:28-39 “all things work together for the good to THEM who ARE the CALLED according to HIS PURPOSE……well read to the end of the chap. in YOU chose!………… How could God fulfill prophecies IF HE does not know the beginning to the end….and have complete CONTROL over ALL His creation…including man! Yes Man makes his plans….BUT GOD ….directs his steps! Again tell me HOW YOU GOT SAVED (oh sorry.. you are not saved until you preform to some undefinable level of holiness/obedience, to the very end)….how sad for you!…. I can start listing (if I had the time) all the commandments of Jesus you are transgressing right now (just one for staters) have you SOLD ALL THAT YOU POSSES and given it to the poor? Do you have a bank account, savings? (Wesley said “lay not up treasures on earth is as much a command of the Lord as… do not committing adultery, for the same Lord gave them both)..Do you have 2 pairs of shoes” 2 suits of clothes? Does Mike’s “church” assemble together with ALL the believers in his local, do they all speak the same thing in one accord… as IS commanded?.. Does he even want too? Have you gone into all the world to preach the Gospel? Do you in disobedience…think about what you will eat/drink/ be clothed with? ………….Don’t get me going, I preached these…… almost totally ignored laws/commands of Jesus for years….not one in a thousand take the hard sayings of Jesus seriously…thats how I know there is GRACE… or most would be in hell already….you all ARE practical calvinist… you just don’t want to admit it! Trusting in ones’ own supposed righteousness (even a tiny little its-bitsy) is NOT a good idea! Law leads to …despair….or blind self-righteousness…fact! GOOD NEWS…..He loves you in spite of your wrong theology and WILL bring correction IF you are HIS sheep…..when faced with death and meeting the Holy of Holiest….I don’t believe you will be waving…ONE filthy RAG of anything you have touched nor will you dare offer your good works to HIM for acceptance!..(though some will)………. Wesley on his death bed confessed to friends “I preached and sought with all my heart…the second blessing (entire sanctification) my whole life….and yet NEVER entered into it myself!” He (Wesley)..went out crying to the ONE who has POWER to save…….. for MERCY andGRACE! Got a feeling thats the way you all will go as well! Grace and Peace (only possible if our faith is in His faithfulness and grace) be multiplied to you in Christ Jesus!

    92. william lowery
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:27 pm

      You all might enjoy this confession of a United Pentecostal church pastor…quite enlightening!

      http://www.inchristalone.org/NotAshamed.htm

    93. caucazhin
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:41 pm

      HEB 3
      6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are,(( if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.))
      7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,

      ” TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,
      8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME,
      AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
      9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me,
      AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.
      10 “ THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
      AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
      AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS’;
      11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH,
      ‘THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.’”
      12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
      13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.
      14 For we have become partakers of Christ,(( if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end ))

      ROMANS 11
      17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partook of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
      18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
      19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
      20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
      21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee
      22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness;
      ((( otherwise you also will be cut off.)))

      2 PETER 3
      17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked,((( fall from your own stedfastness )))

      COLOSSIANS 1
      22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach
      23 ((( if indeed you continue in the faith ))) firmly established and steadfast,((( and not moved away ))) from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed

      REV 3
      4 But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy.
      5 ((( He who overcomes ))) will thus be clothed in white garments; and ((( I will not erase ))) his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

    94. caucazhin
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:49 pm

      and Sampson did truly repent in his heart b4 he died.
      King Saul is another question altogether…

    95. Dan1el
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:54 pm

      William Lowery,
      Your proof for some of your arguments went like this…

      “…or most would be in hell already…”

      I’m not too sure you want to use that as if it upheld or substantiated your argument: most ARE going to hell – as Jesus, Himself said in Luke 13:23,24; and, really, ALL the Scriptures say the same thing: most people ARE going to fall under the wrath of an Almighty God.

      In Noah’s day: 8 souls, in the entire world, were saved.
      In the generation of Israelites entering the Promised Land: 2.
      Many other illustrations speak of a “remnant” saved.
      This is just the way it falls out – no way around it.
      Even in Jesus’s Parable of the Sower: 3 of 4 people receive the Gospel Message; then, only 1 of 3 actually bears fruit with the Word – the other two fall away from the faith after being initially saved through “receiving the Word” [Lk 8:12].

      Luke 8:12
      12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved.

      Therefore, the other grounds that received the Word of Grace WERE SAVED AT FIRST, but eventually fell away from the faith, and also lost that salvation which accompanies the obedience to the Word of Grace, bearing fruit (“all branches that do not bear fruit are cut off” [John 15:2-7]).

    96. caucazhin
      July 18th, 2012 @ 12:57 pm
    97. Jonathan
      July 18th, 2012 @ 1:39 pm

      I agree with you William, that Paul was speaking to a specific group of people. That is only logical, isn’t it? Can you tell me of a single instance where Paul was not speaking to a specific group of people? And I would also agree that there is certain language in parts of Romans 12 that limit certain things he says to believers. (i.e. in verse 1 “brethern” and in verse 3 “to every man that is among you”). But if there is no limiting language than we should not limit it.

      In verse 3,the “every man that is among you” applies to the admonition “not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think”. But the measure of faith that is given is not qualified just by those he was speaking to. Rather it was said that “God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith”. You can qualify that specifically to those there, but the Scripture itself makes no such qualifier.

      To add to that point, we must say that Scripture must agree with Scripture. I would ask for any Scipture that specifically states that God does not extend faith to certain people. If the Scripture does not say it, then you can’t make a dogmatic position or doctrine about it.

      So William, correct me if I am wrong, but what you are saying is that there is a mesure of faith required to believe in God (which I believe) and that God sends those who do not believe in God to eternal punishment (which I believe). But you also believe that God does not extend a measure of faith to everyone (which I do not believe).

      Are we able to be saved without God’s help? Does God require us to be saved or else we are judged? Can a just God punish those who are not saved if He has not given everyone the ability to be saved? If God gives a requirement that is impossible to meet and then executes punishment on those who fail, is He a just God?

      Put another way, if a father tells his teenage son to “Go to your room and change your clothes or you will be punished” it would seem to be a reasonable and just command. But if that father gave his newborn son the same command, would that father be just? If that father did punish his newborn son for not changing his clothes, would child protective services take custody of the child?

      If God has not offered a measure of faith to everyone in the entire world, would He be just to judge those to whom He has not offered this measure of faith? Without it being offered do we have any more power to meet God’s requirements than that newborn son did to meet his father’s requirements?

      Notice after the parable of the talents in Matthew 25, it says in verse 29 and 30, “For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” Notice that even the servant who was cast into outer darkness was given something. God does not withhold from anyone the ability to be saved and then punish them for it. That is the definition of child abuse!

      And the prayer of John 17 is not a prayer of salvation. Notice what is says in verse 6. He says that “they have kept thy word”. No one who is unsaved can do that. He was praying for those who were already saved. And verse 20 goes on to say “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word”. So this prayer is also prayed for those who were not yet saved but would later be saved. Since this is not a prayer of salvation, it makes sense that it is only directed toward those who already were or would in the future be saved. This does not prove your point in any way. The only thing keeping someone from being included in the prayer (according to verse 20) is that they do not believe. Belief is a choice. If it is not, then why are you arguing with me? If Scripture tells a person to believe but you say that when that person does believe something that they are not in control of it at all, then could it be that the beliefs I am expressing are impressed upon me by God and I have no control over what I believe?

      And while the unsaved are dead in sin, it does not mean that they cannot respond to God because God has provided that ability to respond to the unbeliever. Just look at the parable of the sower. Only the last type of ground was saved in the end. Yet there were a couple ground types that responded to the seed (the Word of God) that was provided to them.

      You say, “A gift is something that for some time one does not have, then it is given to that one, without the expectation of any kind of payment from the one who receives the gift, else it would not be a gift, but a purchase” and I agree with the whole statement, interpreted logically. But you have an illogical interpretation of that statement. If my grandmother gave me a gift for my birthday, I could graciously accept that gift and thank her for it. Or I could be a real jerk and say that I don’t want it and refuse to accept it. Yet if I do accept that gift, it is not a purchase. Jesus has given us a gift. Yet we have to accept that gift. How do we do that? Here is what the Scripture says on the subject. Acts 16: 30-31, “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 2:37-38, “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”

      You say “The Arminian limits the atonement’s power, for it only becomes effectual through man’s cooperation”. Yet it is not I that limits the atonement’s power. It is these above Scriptures that show that the atonement can have no power unless it is applied. Those in Egypt at Passover could have had their lamb but not applied the blood to the doorpost. They still would have died. We must abide by the requirement of Scripture pertaining the atonement in order for the atonement’s power to be in effect. It is not I that limit the power of the atonement but God through His word. Just as meekness is not weakness but rather power that is self-limited, so the atonement is not week because it is self-limited. I didn’t make the limits. God did.

      God is not willing that any should perish. Scripture tells us this. Yet God has clearly limited that will in favor of allowing for a creation that loves Him not because they have no power not to. But because they genuinely and freely love Him because of who He is and what He has done for us.

    98. Dan1el
      July 18th, 2012 @ 1:58 pm

      I am always frustrated when Calvinists say…

      “…so, are you saying you think God isn’t **powerful** enough to save?”

      Since when has God ever been a God of mindless force?

      God’s strength is applied only to a specific direction; just like you don’t press the accelerator in your car, unless you’re facing in the right direction.

      God’s WORD – which presents a conditional salvation, dependent on human response – cannot fail.
      Has God ever in Scripture given anything unconditionally?
      No; His Word is and has always been…

      “IF you do this thing, then I will respond in like kind”;
      “IF you do this other thing, then I will do this other thing”

      God’s WORD (forget about His “Strength” – His Strength is applied to FULFILLING HIS WORD; not to blindly fulfilling your dogma) cannot return void; it will accomplish what it is sent out to do – that “Word” is a Word that always accomplishes what it is sent to do not because it is or ever was an unconditional one-way street; but, because it dispenses rewards/consequences DEPENDENT UPON ACTIONS.

      Jesus, the Word, is coming to repay men according to their DEEDS [Rv] – just as God always has done (“the same yesterday, today and forever”), is doing, and always will do.

      Again, the question “is God not strong enough to save”, for all its sense, might as well be applied to all the other hardships in life:
      Is God strong enough to cure all people of diseases?
      Is God strong enough to clothe all people?
      Is God strong enough to feed all people?
      ad infinitum

    99. caucazhin
      July 18th, 2012 @ 2:29 pm

      Although Im in complete agreement with Mike on this subject I do think Bill was trying to make the point by asking Mike if he ever sinned, that where is the line of demarcation ??
      In other words what sins and how much disqualifies you and @ what point does God let go of you ??
      And I dont think you answered that Mike……

      The answer for me personanlly and biblically is that at some point God may actually give you ( or a nation )over to your/its sin and that is a really scarey proposition but I think the warnings are clearly throughout the bible.
      I would also say that point is probably different for different individuals & nations depending on a lot of different circumstances.
      Ananias and Sapphira are clear examples of this to me.
      Its also a point I dont want to find out for myself
      This subject really parallels the whole fear or love God debate. Maybe its both.
      “Perfect love cast out fear” but in this fallen state do any of us I repeat any of us have “PERFECT” love toward God or anyone else. I think not.So a descent dose of fear probably helps us all to stay in check……..my 2 cents

    100. ron david metcalf
      July 18th, 2012 @ 2:48 pm

      The song goes, “I love Your presence” (not presents). Faith is evidence and assurance, yes; but we’re all in the same boat; if we knew who was predestined to heaven or hell, we would already be in heaven; and we aren’t; so to presume to know (the pre-judicial ‘verdict’) is beyond presumptious; it is sin, putting ourselves on the same level as GOD. On the one hand, we need to know our preservation as saints of the Most High; on the other, judging anyone else puts us in extreme danger of GOD’s wrath.
      So how do leaders, for we need leaders, administer GOD’s Truth to the congregation? Very carefully, in fear and trembling; knowing that if we make severe mistakes, we will be held accountable. Why should we not talk about this?
      All the prophets, including Jesus of Nazareth as perceived by the multitude, sometimes had to resort to hyperbole to get the blind & deaf’s attention. So for me to tell ANYONE that Jesus didn’t die for them because He already knows they are going to hell stinks so bad that the whole carcass needs to be thrown into outer darkness.
      Similarly, concerning ‘cheap grace’, I am greatly concerned that Satan has nearly made my children’s generation into a bunch of hollow, empty shells who must go to their religious pimps for their weekly high; and the chief charge here is idolatry of leadership. You make some great claims, William, and I am not against most of what you say concerning our personal relationship to GOD; but I think your exclusion theology is vile.
      In Him, Ron M.

    101. Jonathan
      July 18th, 2012 @ 7:31 pm

      William, did David Pawson really say the sentences at the beginning of your post? Part of it is in quotes so it makes it seem that you are quoting him. Did he actually say those things?

      I don’t know David Pawson and don’t know if he really says and believes the things that you have in that post.

      But I do want to say that the beliefs and words that you put forth in post # 91 would be largely rejected by most Arminians.

      If you are trying to say that the words and thoughts presented in your post are representative of Arminians then you are sorely mistaken. Because it would be a severe misrepresentation and a bad caricature of our beliefs.

      There is so much of the post that would need to be clarified and revised to make it an accurate reflection of what I believe that I will not even attempt to do so.

      Before you would make an attempt to define what Arminians believe, I would suggest you re-read my earlier comments to see if they come even close to what you have written.

    102. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 18th, 2012 @ 7:45 pm

      Jonathan, I can guarantee you that Pawson said something like, “Never tell anyone you are saved” and then William butchered the meaning of it. What he would have meant is this: When you are sharing the gospel with a sinner, don’t tell them, “OK, because you prayed this prayer or went through a certain ritual, you are now saved. Congratulations!” Rather, let the Holy Spirit give them assurance of salvation. Don’t we all agree that is the sound and right thing to do?

      But again, a heads up to you and others dealing with William here. Do NOT expect a fair treatment of your points; do NOT expect a response that is true to historic Calvinism in terms of Calvinism’s hallmark preaching of holiness; but do expect to be falsely accused of believing all kinds of crazy things you never believed in your life.

      All that being said, having this archived online for others to see is highly beneficial, and so I encourage further dialog as time permits, especially staying on one simple point and refusing to move on until it is dealt with. That will be quite revealing for sure!

    103. william lowery
      July 18th, 2012 @ 11:55 pm

      Mike you obliviously haven’t listened to Pawsons teaching ..I have …. I read his book “Once saved always saved is it true”" A book SO legalist that he even states he hesitated to write ….lest some new believers might read it and quit before they got a good start! Here is his 4 step plan to get started on the path (of which NO ONE knows IF they will be successful in “making it”! I have the whole book which is so ambiguous and pompous (english) as to be almost unreadable….will be glad to send you a electronic copy! the four basic steps of initiation (repentance towards God, faith in Jesus, baptism in water and reception of the Spirit) may be spread over hours, days, weeks, months or even years.
      The more important question is whether ‘initiation’, when it is complete, equals ‘salvation’. Are all the initiated regarded as ‘saved’? The answer is surprising.
      Apostolic teaching uses the verb ‘save’ in three tenses: past, present and future. Apparently we have been saved, we are being saved and we will be saved! If anything, the emphasis
      16 Once Saved, Always Saved?
      is on the future (see, for example, Matt. 24:13; Rom. 5:10; 1 Cor. 5:5; 1 Tim. 4:16; Heb. 9:28).
      What do we conclude from this? That salvation is a process which takes time rather than an instant happening. The gospel is about ‘the Way’ of salvation, along which we need to travel to reach our destination.
      In other words, salvation is not yet complete in any of us. The most appropriate description of our present state is that we are ‘being saved’. Pawson P29 Hmmmmmm His statement on the cd I listened to…he states unequivocally… NO one should ever claim salvation until death and until one awakes safely in heaven! Only then may one say I am saved! Which is basely your position Mike..if you believe salvation can be forfeited by sin (of course the mention of sin your mind goes to the sins you have deemed big…murder, adultery, homosexuality, stealing…..and over looks the “little ones”….laying up treasures on earth , disunity with fellow believers in ones local, pride, loving the titles of men, daily sins of omission and commission, not to even mention the thoughts of the heart and eyes…causing even Paul to lament that “in my flesh dwelleth NO GOOD THING ….we all fail so miserly….hence “by the keeping of the law …no flesh shall be saved! I can only imagine on Christmas morning I play the role of the grinch and tell your kids there “gifts” are all conditional on there behavior, as is daddies love and acceptance! ouch The linking of justification with sanctification is one of the problems!
      The difference between Law and Grace The great Scottish preacher, John Colquhoun, said of this distinction:
      To know the difference so as to be able to distinguish aright between the law and the gospel is of the utmost importance to the faith, holiness, and comfort of every true Christian. It will be impossible otherwise for a man so to believe as to ‘be filled with joy and peace in believing.’ If he does not know the difference between the law and the gospel…. he will be apt, especially in the affair of justification, to confound the one with the other. The consequence will be that in his painful experience, bondage will be mixed with liberty of spirit, fear with hope, sorrow with joy, and death with life. If he cannot so distinguish the gospel from the law as to expect all his salvation from the grace of the gospel, and nothing of it from the works of the law; he will easily be induced to connect his own works with the righteousness of Jesus Christ in the affair of his justification. This was the great error of the Judaizing teachers in the churches of Galatia. They mingled the law with the gospel in the business of justification, and thereby they so corrupted the gospel as to alter the very nature of it and make it another gospel.

    104. william lowery
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:13 am

      Here you go guys…you that preach saved once, twice, three times…add infum…Preach lose you salvation and so thy will! Here is your hero of the Arminians Charles Finney: This teaching from this books (I have the whole set 16 I Believe…will sell cheap”

      Here you will like this by Charles Finney; /…..ORIGINAL SIN — We deny that the human constitution is morally depraved, because it is impossible that sin should be a quality of the substance of the soul or body. It is, and must be, a quality of choice or intention, and not of substance. To represent the constitution as sinful, is to represent God, who is the author of the constitution, as the author of sin. What ground is there for the assertion that Adam’s nature became in itself sinful by the fall? This is a groundless, not to say ridiculous, assumption, and an absurdity (Finney’s Systematic Theology, pp. 249,250).
      17 minutes ago · Like

      William Lowery JUSTIFICATION BASED UPON SANCTIFICATION — We see that, if a righteous man forsake his righteousness, and die in his sin, he must sink to hell. Whenever a Christian sins he becomes under condemnation, and must repent and do his first works, or be lost (Ibid., p. 124).Finney
      17 minutes ago · Like

      William Lowery OBEDIENCE — That which the precept demands must be possible to the subject. That which demands a natural impossibility cannot be moral law. To talk of inability to obey moral law is to talk nonsense (Ibid., p. 2).C Finney
      15 minutes ago · Like

      William Lowery ENTIRE SANCTIFICATION — It is self-evident, that entire obedience to God’s law is possible on the ground of natural ability. To deny this, is to deny that a man is able to do as well as he can. The very language of the law is such as to level its claims to the capacity of the subject, however great or small that capacity may be.

      “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength.” Here then it is plain, that all the law demands, is the exercise of whatever strength we have, in the service of God. Now, as entire sanctification consists in perfect obedience to the law of God, and as the law requires nothing more than the right use of whatever strength we have, it is, of course, forever settled, that a state of entire sanctification is attainable in this life, on the ground of natural ability (Ibid., p. 407). CF
      14 minutes ago · Like

      William Lowery THE SECURITY OF THE BELIEVER — It is not intended that saints, or the truly regenerated, cannot fall from grace, and be finally lost, by natural possibility. It must be naturally possible for all moral agents to sin at any time. Saints on earth and in heaven can by natural possibility apostatize and fall, and be lost. Were not this naturally possible, there would be no virtue in perseverance (Ibid., p. 550). Charles Finney champion of MOST evangelicals in the US today!
      11 minutes ago · Like

      William Lowery We could argue that his view of our obedience is an implicit rejection of Christ’s, but he spares us that task when he did it for us by explicitly denying that justification rests on the obedience of Christ. In his closing argument of this his only lecture dedicated to justification Finney tells us:

      They (the reformers) must have a justification while yet at least in some degree of sin. This must be brought about by imputed righteousness. The intellect revolts at a justification in sin. So a scheme is devised to divert the eye of the law and the lawgiver from the sinner to his substitute, who has perfectly obeyed the law. But in order to make out the possibility of his (Jesus’) obedience being imputed to them, it must be assumed that He (JESUS) owed no obedience for Himself; which a greater absurdity cannot be conceived.[25] Finney

    105. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:16 am

      William Lowery,
      The contortion of the Word “Law” by SO MANY is ridiculous – there is the Law of Moses of works righteousness, but there is ALSO a Law of Faith under the Gospel! This “Law” is such that if it is transgressed, it can render someone “DISQUALIFIED”…

      2 TI 2:5
      An athlete is not crowned unless he competes according to the rules.

      1 COR 9:24-27
      But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

      Hmm… I guess Paul was preaching a heretical Gospel, since he was talking about rules, and being disqualified if you don’t adhere to them, right William? Surely! (sarcasm)

    106. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:22 am

      William Lowery,
      As far as being justified by faith – Paul says “if we LIVE in the spirit, let us also WALK in the Spirit”: those who are merely ALIVE in the Spirit, but don’t WALK in the Spirit will not inherit the Kingdom of God; that portion of the Spirit of Grace which they have will be STRIPPED AWAY FROM THEM AT THE RETURN OF CHRIST [Matthew 25:26]!

      You’re saying EXACTLY what that wicked lazy servant would say – you’re giving back to Christ nothing more than what He gave; but He wants to receive a HARVEST, not just a mouth saying, “I believe in Jesus”.

      Living in the Spirit (through faith) isn’t enough; WALKING in the Spirit was the REASON God made us born again.

    107. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:23 am

      Bill, feel free to send me an electronic copy of Pawson’s book. So, on your end, do you tell someone if they prayed with you or did something in response to your message, “Hey, you’re saved, and you can never lose your salvation?” Or do you preach what Paul preached? “First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds.” (Acts 26:20) To bad you weren’t around in Paul’s day to set him straight too!

    108. william lowery
      July 19th, 2012 @ 3:00 am

      Mike, I have never told anyone in my life they are saved, have emphasized always even after prayer….prayer doesn’t save, walking the aisle doesn’t save…ONLY Jesus saves and He alone can give you the assurance of the new birth Rom 8:15-16 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
      Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are (not we are on the way to being) the children of God:!
      I have told a lot of people they weren’t saved….for IF they were they won’t be asking me! Mike you just love all those scriptures on “works”. and planting seeds of doubt (as Pawson) in people casting aspersion on Gods faithfulness or His power to lead, guide, protect, keep, make a way of escape, give the believer power over all the power of the enemy (so negative).make us MORE that conquers…..is that the way you raise your children ( you had better be careful…or you will end up losers)….counsel your wife.(if you don’t please me I’ll divorce you….! Check this out! http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/CalvinismArminianism.htm

    109. Mark Phillips
      July 19th, 2012 @ 4:29 am

      Michael and all on here,let me set the record a bit straighter on David Pawson’s soteriology (salvation-ology).

      If you said to David ‘ Are you saved’ he would reply ‘No’ ; if you asked him ‘Are you born again’ he would say ‘Yes’.

      Reason being,when David says he is not saved,he is refering to the present tense aspect of salvation ; he is saying he is not yet perfect,not yet completely saved from every single sin.

      (Please get David on your radio show soon Michael,he is now 82. Different men bring different expertise to the table : Michael,you bring a rich knowledge of Israel,perhaps the Body’s best denounciation of Replacement Theology,together with the biblical declaration that Israel’s salvation paves the way for Messiah’s return ; Frank Viola is well aware of the counterproductive nature of clerical pastorhood,and also calls for authentic one-anotherness (familyhood) between brothers and sisters in Messiah ; and David calls the Western contingent of the Body back to truly trinitarian evangelism (plus the need for weighty yet digestible Bible teaching).Please get David on the show to hammer out truly trinitarian,three-tense slvation-ology. (I think the edification would not be a one-way street if you got to know him – I think your view on the Second Covenant is slightly more accurate than David’s at points.)

      It is really good to see this thread building,and yes,becoming a profitable resource in itself for this matter – one and all,do consider putting this thread in your favorites ; do also see and hear the free resouces I put in the first post.

      David did a six-part video presentation of his book THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN BIRTH,which is free to watch. The sixth part is a lovely summary of his three-tense,trinitarian view on salvation (a view that is the most God-honoring I have yet to hear).

      Do watch all six parts ; but at least part six.

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-normal-christian-birth

    110. Jonathan
      July 19th, 2012 @ 10:11 am

      William, if your quotes about Finney are correct, then it would appear that I am not in agreement with everything that he believed.

      But what you are attempting to do is know in debate as an ad hominem fallacy. You are attempting to say that simply because this or that person held to Belief A that is proven to be wrong that since they also held to Belief B, that Belief B is automatically wrong. You are also seem to be saying that in order for someone to hold to Belief B, that we must also hold to Belief A, simply because another person that held to Belief B also held to Belief A.

      None of that is automatically true and does not prove your point.

      There was discussion earlier in the discussion thread about Calvin and whether or not he did certain negative things. But whether he did or not did not have any bearing on whether other things he believed were true.

      The focus to determine whether or not a doctrine is correct has to be on what the Scripture actually says. So please stop focusing on this or that person and refer directly to Scripture texts (preferably quoted directly) to make your point.

    111. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 19th, 2012 @ 10:53 am

      Our argument is really over Scripture, not individuals (just think of the fun we could have if we quoted Bill Lowery and put all Calvinists in his camp), but for a better perspective on Finney, go here: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/in-the-line-of-fire/listen/was-charles-finney-a-false-prophet-dr-brown-interviews-jerry-johnson-and-the-power-of-conviction-187617.html

    112. william lowery
      July 19th, 2012 @ 11:32 am

      .SALVATION IS OF THE LORD…Jonah 2:9
      The sovereignty of God is not a secondary doctrine that is relegated to an obscure corner in the Bible. Rather, this truth is the very bedrock doctrine of all Scripture. This is the Mount Everest of biblical teaching, the towering truth that transcends all theology. From its opening verse, the Bible asserts in no uncertain terms that God is and that God reigns. In other words, He is God—not merely in name, but in full reality. God does as He pleases, when He pleases, where He pleases, how He pleases, and with whom He pleases in saving undeserving sinners. All other doctrines of the Christian faith must be brought into alignment with this keystone truth.

      The sovereignty of God is the free exercise of His supreme authority in executing and administrating His eternal purposes. God must be sovereign if He is to be truly God. A god who is not sovereign is not God at all. Such is an imposter, an idol, a mere caricature formed in man’s fallen imagination. A god who is less than fully sovereign is not worthy of our worship, much less our witness. But the Bible proclaims for all to hear that “the Lord reigns” (Ps. 93:1). God is exactly who Scripture declares He is. He is the sovereign Lord of heaven and earth, whose supreme authority is over all. This is the main premise of Scripture.

      Nowhere is God’s sovereignty more clearly demonstrated than in His salvation of the lost. God is free to bestow His saving mercy on whom He pleases. God says, “I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will show mercy on whom I will show mercy” (Ex. 33:19b; Rom. 9:15). He is not obligated to extend His grace to any undeserving sinner. If He were to choose to save none, He would remain perfectly just. He might determine to save a few and still be absolutely holy. Or He could choose to save all. But God is sovereign, and that means He is entirely free to bestow His grace however He will—whether on none, few, or all.

      From beginning to end, salvation is of God and, ultimately, for God. The apostle Paul writes, “From him and through him and to him are all things” (Rom. 11:36). In this comprehensive verse, God is declared to be the divine source, the determinative means, and the designated end of all things. This is most true in salvation. According to this text, every aspect of the operation of saving grace is God-initiated, God-directed, and God-glorifying. Every dimension of salvation is from Him, through Him, and to Him. This is to say, salvation originates from His sovereign will, proceeds through His sovereign activity, and leads to His sovereign glory.

      From beginning to end, salvation is of God and, ultimately, for God…; yes, Salvation is of the Lord…! by Steven Lawson This is REALLY what you all are resisting!

    113. Dan1el
      July 19th, 2012 @ 11:47 am

      William Lowery,
      I thought Grace was Irresistible?

    114. Jonathan
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:00 pm

      William, in post #108 you said, “Mike you just love all those scriptures on “works”. and planting seeds of doubt (as Pawson) in people casting aspersion on Gods faithfulness or His power to lead, guide, protect, keep, make a way of escape, give the believer power over all the power of the enemy (so negative).”

      Could you explain what you meant by that? Are there certain Scriptures we should NOT love or not want to use? 2 Tim 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”.

      So we can’t just wish away Scriptures we don’t like and pretend they are not there. You could say the interpretation of a certain Scripture that Dr. Brown or others are using is incorrect, but then you would have to show (from the text of the verse) why that interpretation is wrong and what the correct interpretation would be.

      Every time you have listed a verse that I believe you have interpreted improperly, I have tried to tackle the verse head-on. Yet myself and others have listed quite a few verses that we believe speak directly against the thoughts you are conveying. There has been very few of these verses that you have dealt with in a head-on manner, showing from the text of the Scripture what you believe the proper interpretation to be.

      Here are some Scriptures that seem go against once saved always saved: Matt 5:13 (salt losing it’s savor), Matt 24:12 (the love of many will wax cold), Luke 9:62 (putting your hand to the plow and then looking back), Gal 1:6 (they were so soon removed from Him that called them), 1 Cor 15:2 (unless you have believed in vain), 1 Tim 4:1 (some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits), 1 Tim 6:20-21 (some have strayed concerning the faith), 2 Tim 2:18 (they overthrow the faith of some), Heb 3:12 (lest there be an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God), Heb 12:15 (lest any man fail of the grace of God), Rev 3:1-6 (were once alive but now dead), Rev 3:14-22 (the lukewarm church that God will spit out).

      If they do not contradict once saved always saved, what exactly do they mean?

    115. Jonathan
      July 19th, 2012 @ 12:17 pm

      William, no one in this discussion is claiming that God is not sovereign or that salvation is not from God. We believe fully that the Lord reigns and that He will be gracious and show mercy to whom He wills.

      But the manner that He has sovereignly chosen to use to show mercy is prescribed in Scripture.

      And again, here is what the Scripture says on the subject. Acts 16: 30-31, “And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.” Acts 2:37-38, “Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Joshua 24:15 ” And if it seem evil unto you to serve the Lord, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord.”

    116. william lowery
      July 19th, 2012 @ 2:38 pm

      1 Cor. 1:17-31, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written: “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are CALLED, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For you see your CALLING, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are CALLED. But God has CHOSEN the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God– and righteousness and sanctification and redemption– that, as it is written, “He who glories, let him glory in the Lord.” ……… Paul states in Rom. 6:14…” for you are not under law but under grace.” He also makes it clear in Gal. 5:18 “if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” The previous verses state “so that you do not do the things that you wish.” The Law is not given to the Christian as the standard to live by, but to show the unbeliever how below the standard we do live, as Paul states in 1 Tim.1:9 The Law is for the unrighteous.

      Paul states the LAW is Not of Faith. The ministry of the law working in a Christian cannot please God, for it is not of faith yet , “The man who does them shall live by them.” Gal. 3:12

      In the dispensation of grace, “the law is not of faith.” Today faith and law are mutually exclusive. In Israel’s dispensation of law,… faith and law were equally beneficial, one needed both (Rom. 10:5-6, 10).without faith the requirements of the law would not be acceptable. This is why The Lord said that he rejected their sacrifices because it was not mixed with faith. Under law, faith is necessary. Under grace, the OT law is prohibited. So today, “the law is not of faith.” And Paul states without faith, it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6). So if the Law is not of faith what do we live by? For a member of the Body ….sins by putting himself under the requirements of the law. Remember Paul said in Rom. 14:23 “whatever is not of faith is sin.” ( he used the example of food to represent this concept). Why is it in every religion of the world man has a deep longing to know his maker but he attempts to go to God his own way and not come the way God has ordained and declared to the whole world. Why do people look to their own works instead of accepting Gods grace? Its easier to look at ones self obedience to gauge how they are doing spiritually than to REST in Christ’s work for them. If we stop trying to live it in our own strength and let Christ live it through us by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can see the results of the new life. We will understand it is all by grace. Which is found by Jesus suffering and death on the cross. The cross is HIDDEN to those who think they are wise. It is foolishness to those who are perishing but to us who are saved by faith we know it is the power of God. The cross became Gods highway to himself. As Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no one comes to father except by me. But it was a certain way. It is not just following him as a good example. Someone who has a greater set of ethics and morals. Nor is following him as a wonderful teacher or the greatest prophet, or a miracle maker.
      It is going through the cross (and the one who died on it) for ones relationship to be restored to God. Exactly where Jesus pointed to and where all the apostles pointed too as well. BUT [Israel] being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For ‘ Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Rom. 10:3-4 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is. of the law… but the righteousness of faith speaks in this way… with the heart one believes to righteousness. Rom. 10:5-6,

      Charles Spurgeon “There is no point upon which men make greater mistakes than upon the relation which exists between the law and the gospel. Some men put the law instead of the gospel: others put the gospel instead of the law; some modify the law and the gospel, and preach neither law nor gospel (MIX): and others entirely abrogate the law, by bringing in the gospel. Many there are who think that the law is the gospel, and who teach that men by good works of benevolence, honesty, righteousness, and sobriety, may be saved. Such men do err. On the other hand, many teach that the gospel is a law; that it has certain commands in it, by obedience to which, men are meritoriously saved, such men err from the truth, and understand it not. A certain class maintain that the law and the gospel are MIXED, and that partly by observance of the law, and partly by God’s grace, men are saved. These men understand not the truth, and are false teachers. … The coming of the law is explained in regard to its objects: “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound.” Then comes the mission of the gospel: “But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.” The law came through Moses grace came by Jesus Christ. The law is synonymous of Moses……. Grace is synonymous to Christ…. Our relation to Christ is by his death and resurrection in the new covenant. The law is of the old creation from another dispensation. We are made into a new creature prepared for a new heavens and earth. No law or act of obedience can help us to prepare, it has to be grace. We obey him because we love him and He FIRST loved us….we don’t like to hurt the ones we love. The times that we are disobedient are summed up by loving something else instead of him. He accepts us not based on our performance, but based on His call and His performance in our stead!

      God let Moses see the promise land from the Mt. top, we can see the promises by faith in his word. The law killed Moses because of his disobedience, only once did Moses misrepresent God to the people… by striking the rock twice in anger. (Num.20:7-12). All of that generation of Israel that came out of Egypt except 2 failed to entered the promised land. Only 2 who had a different spirit (had faith) entered. The old creation could not enter the promised land, only the new. They could nor enter the land under the law (being disobedient) so everyone had to die. But Cable and Joshua ..they entered it under faith.
      If one continues to look to the law for their guidance, then true successful Christian living cannot really occur. Practicing law keeping …. runs the risk of consciously or unconsciously thinking one has obtained or is keeping salvation by the works of the law. But it actually is that… which separates one from Christ, as Paul said falling from of the grace of God (Galatians 5:4). Pulling verses out of context and then trying to us them to disprove the “whole plan of God” for our times (time of the Gentiles) is more that foolish! Ask your self……is it (salvations plan)……by works ….OR… FAITH? Is it of GOD…OR…is it of MAN? THAT IS THE QUESTION FOR ALL TIMES…..FAITH OR…UNBELIEF!

    117. ron david metcalf
      July 19th, 2012 @ 2:52 pm

      “Today faith and law are mutually exclusive.”
      Total replacement theology: the Son CANNOT replace the Father, and the Spirit CANNOT replace the Son. Beyond dangerous: heresy.
      You’re not the first to take Galatians and erase the rest of the Bible; so declare Paul as your savior and see if GOD agrees.
      In Him, Ron M.

    118. Jonathan
      July 19th, 2012 @ 5:02 pm

      William, you seem to have misunderstood what I said in my comment.

      I asked for a head-on treatment of the Scriptures I listed where you did not only disagree with the way I was interpreting them but to show what you believed the proper interpretation to be.

      You have not clarified if there were Scriptures we should not love and should not use.

      You also have not explained what the proper interpretation of the following verses are. We must keep in mind that the Bible does not contradict itself. So there is a proper interpretation of these verses that is in perfect harmony with the rest of Scripture. You say I am taking them out of context but have not said what the proper context is.

      I am still giving you the opportunity.

      Here are the verses again: Matt 5:13 (salt losing it’s savor), Matt 24:12 (the love of many will wax cold), Luke 9:62 (putting your hand to the plow and then looking back), Gal 1:6 (they were so soon removed from Him that called them), 1 Cor 15:2 (unless you have believed in vain), 1 Tim 4:1 (some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits), 1 Tim 6:20-21 (some have strayed concerning the faith), 2 Tim 2:18 (they overthrow the faith of some), Heb 3:12 (lest there be an evil heart of unbelief in departing from God), Heb 12:15 (lest any man fail of the grace of God), Rev 3:1-6 (were once alive but now dead), Rev 3:14-22 (the lukewarm church that God will spit out).

      If they do not contradict once saved always saved, what exactly do they mean?

    119. ron david metcalf
      July 19th, 2012 @ 7:24 pm

      A little over a decade ago, I couldn’t post on the internet as a Messianic Christian (Law still valid) without being attacked; so the ‘harmony’ of Scripture are for those willing to try and look at the Bible as a whole. Keep in mind that there is @ an 1800 year history of the Jews having been replaced permanently as the ‘gospel’; and this was the predominant doctrine in most denominations until very recently.
      In Him, Ron M.

    120. william lowery
      July 19th, 2012 @ 10:55 pm

      Jonathan I WILL give you an answer to your verses….why do you continue to ignore the questions I raise! Check this out from a friend; And we also know that salvation is not a contract……….”For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.”
      [Hebrews 9:16]…..Salvation is of the Lord.”—Jonah 2:9……..From C.H. Spurgeon’s
      Salvation is the work of God. It is He alone who quickens the soul “dead in trespasses and sins,” and it is He also who maintains the soul in its spiritual life. He is both “Alpha and Omega.” “Salvation is of the Lord.” If I am prayerful, God makes me prayerful; if I have graces, they are God’s gifts to me; if I hold on in a consistent life, it is because He upholds me with His hand. I do nothing whatever towards my own preservation, except what God Himself first does in me. Whatever I have, all my goodness is of the Lord alone. Wherein I sin, that is my own; but wherein I act rightly, that is of God, wholly and completely. If I have repulsed a spiritual enemy, the Lord’s strength nerved my arm. Do I live before men a consecrated life? It is not I, but Christ who liveth in me. Am I sanctified? I did not cleanse myself: God’s Holy Spirit sanctifies me. Am I weaned from the world? I am weaned by God’s chastisements sanctified to my good. Do I grow in knowledge? The great Instructor teaches me. All my jewels were fashioned by heavenly art. I find in God all that I want; but I find in myself nothing but sin and misery. “He only is my rock and my salvation.” Do I feed on the Word? That Word would be no food for me unless the Lord made it food for my soul, and helped me to feed upon it. Do I live on the manna which comes down from heaven? What is that manna but Jesus Christ himself incarnate, whose body and whose blood I eat and drink? Am I continually receiving fresh increase of strength? Where do I gather my might? My help cometh from heaven’s hills: without Jesus I can do nothing. As a branch cannot bring forth fruit except it abide in the vine, no more can I, except I abide in Him. What Jonah learned in the great deep, let me learn this morning in my closet: “Salvation is of the Lord.”

    121. william lowery
      July 20th, 2012 @ 3:16 am

      Matt5:13 But if the salt have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?
      The “savour” here supposed that it may be lost, cannot mean the savour of grace, or true grace itself, which cannot be lost, being an incorruptible seed; Look at the context of the whole chapter..He is warning the disciples to be diligent to press on and eventually receive a full reward. While we are saved sovereignly be the Lord’s grace…he sets a race before us to be ran (if we are wise allowing Him to lead and empower us) He leaves us here upon the earth that we may be partakers in the building of Hie Body (Church) that we might lay up treasures in heaven….and because He loves us to experience a life and that more abundant….thou some are allowed the glory of suffering for His sake! Some will squander there God given opportunities and be saved but as by fire!
      Matt 24:12 This might be true of such, who were real believers in Christ; who might fall under great temptations, through the prevalence of iniquity; But it does not say their love shall be lost, but wax cold. I wonder if the works/righteousness doctrine which has gained the dominance in the last175 years, could have contributed to the sad results we are witnessing today!
      Luke 9:62 is not fit for the kingdom of God:
      that is, to preach the kingdom of God, as in (Luke 9:60) . He cannot serve God and mammon, his own interest, and the interest of Christ; he cannot rightly perform the work of the ministry, whilst his thoughts and time are taken up in the affairs of the world. This not a salvation scripture, rather a disciple verse!
      Gal1:6 The apostle now enters on the subject matter of this epistle, and immediately tells the reason for it, which is to reprove the Galatians for their instability in the Gospel; and, if possible, to reclaim them, who were removing from the simplicity of it; and which was very surprising to the apostle, who had entertained a good opinion of them, looked upon them as persons called by the grace of God, well established in the doctrines of the Gospel, and in no danger of being carried away with the error of the false teachers whom he says had come in to spy out their liberty and try to bring them back into the bondage of law keeping (using his meeting in Jerusalem with the elders as an object lesson) Chap5:1-10 Stand fast in the liberty…v13 only use not your liberty of the flesh……the writer vehemently defends the doctrine of free grace and grace alone…the very issue we are debating here! He has confidence (v10)they will be none otherwise minded!
      1 Corinthians 15:2 By which also ye are saved…. It (the Gospel) was the means of their salvation, and had been made the power of God unto salvation to them. Salvation is inseparably connected with true faith in Christ as a Saviour, and with a hearty belief of his resurrection from the dead, which is the earnest and pledge of the resurrection of the saints; and because of the certainty of it in the promise of God, through the obedience and death of Christ, and in the faith and hope of believers, which are sure and certain things, they are said to be saved ALREADY. To which the apostle puts in the following provisos and exceptions; the one is,….if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you;
      or rather, “if ye hold fast, or retain”; that is, by faith, the doctrine preached to you, and received by you, particularly the doctrine of the resurrection of the dead; for the salvation that is connected with it does NOT depend upon the strength of the memory, but upon the truth and steadfastness of faith: it is the man that perseveres in the faith and doctrine (SAVED BY GRACE) of Christ that shall be saved; and everyone that has truly believed in Christ, and cordially embraced his Gospel, shall hold on, and out to the end; though the faith of nominal (FAKE) believers may be overthrown by such men, as Hymenaeus and Philetus, who asserted, that the resurrection was past already; but not the faith of real believers, because the foundation on which they are built stands sure, and the Lord has perfect knowledge of them, and will keep and save them. (2) The other exception is,unless ye have believed in vain:
      True faith can not be in vain; for that is the faith of God’s elect, the gift of his grace, the operation of his Spirit; Christ is the author and finisher of it, and will never suffer it to fail; it will certainly issue in everlasting salvation:…… but as the word may be heard in vain, so it is with those who are compared to the wayside, and to the thorny and rocky ground; and as the Gospel of the grace of God ..may be received in vain; so a mere historical faith may be in vain; this a man MAY have,…. and not HAVE the grace of God, and so be nothing; with this he may believe for a while, and then drop it: and since each of these two exceptions might possibly be the case of some in this church, the apostle puts in these exceptions, in order to awaken the attention of them ALL to this important doctrine he was reminding them of unless “ye have believed in vain” You have to believe in the right thing, ie. doctrine, the Doctrine of Christ…salvation thru His shed Blood and unmerited favor by faith He gives as a gift! NOT THRU ANY PAST, PRESENT, OR FUTURE…. MERIT OF MAN: Gill
      1Tim4:1 that in the latter times some should depart from the faith;
      that is, from the doctrine of faith, notwithstanding it is indisputably the great mystery of godliness, as it is called in the latter part of the preceding chapter; for from the true grace of faith there can be no final and total apostasy, such as is here designed; for that can never be lost. It is of an incorruptible nature, and therefore more precious than gold that perishes; Christ is the author and finisher of it; his prevalent mediation is concerned for it; it is a gift of special grace, and is without repentance; it springs from electing grace, and is secured by it; and between that and salvation there is an inseparable connection; it may indeed decline, be very low, and lie dormant, as to its acts and exercise, but not be lost: there is a temporary faith, and a persuasion of truth, or a mere assent to it, which may be departed from, but not that faith which works by love: here it intends a profession of faith, which being made, should be dropped by some; or rather the doctrine of faith, which some would embrace, and then err concerning, or entirely quit, and wholly apostatize from. And they are said to be some, and these many, as they are elsewhere represented, though not all; for the elect cannot be finally and totally deceived; the foundation of election stands sure amidst the greatest apostasy; and there are always a few names that are not defiled with corrupt principles and practices; Christ always had some witnesses for the truth in the darkest times: and now this defection was to be “in the latter times”; either of the apostolic age, which John, the last of the apostles, lived to see; and therefore he calls it the last time, or hour, in which were many antichrists, (1 John 2:18) . And indeed in the Apostle Paul’s time the mystery of iniquity began to work, which brought on this general defection; though here it has regard to some later times under the Gospel dispensation; to the time when the man of sin, and the son of perdition, was revealed, and when all the world wondered after the beast: and indeed, such will be the degeneracy in the last days of all, that when the son of man comes, as the grace, so the doctrine of faith will be scarcely to be found in the world: the means by which this apostasy will obtain and prevail will be through men’s Gill It is getting late , will answer the others later….!

    122. ron david metcalf
      July 20th, 2012 @ 8:25 am

      YESHUA MESSIAH IS BOTH LAW AND SPIRIT! Why has this been so greatly opposed?
      Paul of Tarsus kept Christianity from becoming a lowly subset of Orthodox Judaism and the Traditions of Men (“synagogue of Satan”); BUT there quickly sprung up a Gentile Roman hierarchy (‘deeds and doctrine of the Nicolaitans”) that hated the Law; for what? For their own law and authority. So my Salvation is not preconditioned on following Jewish dietary law or bowing to the current Pope; I think we agree on this.
      Where we disagree is Paul’s contention that the Law has been REPLACED by the Spirit; and if you look closely, you will see that James, John, and Peter also opposed this doctrine. I say that Paul eventually backed off from his ‘separation’ dogma found in Galatians, and returned to a ‘inclusion’ doctrine (eg Romans, Ephesians, Timothy); while still opposing the ‘Judaisers’ after the Jerusalem Council agreement, especially in his Gentile missionary realm.
      Spirit without Law has no foundation; because the Word is Found in the Father (I’m not talking about statutes and ordinances). So for you to say that anyone who ‘obeys the Law’ (that came from the Father the same as the Spirit came from the Father) is the whore of Babylon, I contend is ridiculous; and that you are greatly deceived. I think you have made Paul your god, and that is heresy.
      In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf

    123. william lowery
      July 20th, 2012 @ 10:06 am

      So Ron…you then are keeping the Law….some…part…ALL? Your claim to salvation is based on what…who…? Just asking!

    124. william lowery
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:28 am

      The triumph of Christ is complete, irreversible, immutable. This is where Paul rests his case in his triumphant Romans 8 passage. He entertains no fears for “things present, nor things to come” (verse 38), because he remembers what has happened in the past (verse 34). And when he had occasion to exhort the immature Christian communities whom he found lapsing into such “fleshly” things as quarreling, lying, or sloth, he saluted them as saints (1 Corinthians 1:2). With words fresh from glory, he took them by the ears and reminded them what had happened in the Gospel and that by faith they were sharers in all that Christ had done and suffered. Yes, he told these faulty, fumbling, stumbling believers that they were dead (Colossians 3:3; Romans 6:6), risen (Ephesians 2:1-6) and free (Romans 7:4). Having shown them what they were, he showed how their un-Christlike behavior was inconsistent with their privileged position. The factious Corinthians had to be reminded of the Gospel. The apostle wrote to them: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the Gospel which I preached unto you, which also you have received, and wherein you stand; by which also you are saved, if you keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless you have believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:1, 2).

      The epistles of Paul were written to encourage spiritual growth (sanctification) in people who were already believers. This point is very significant. Yet how did the apostle go about to promote such growth in grace? Every epistle was a mighty call to remember the Gospel and how believers are justified through faith alone in God’s redemptive action in Jesus Christ. Every Pauline epistle, therefore, is an immutable testimony that the church can make progress in sanctification only in proportion to its grasp of justification. Each epistle is a call to remember. The church, even in Heaven, where the worship of the Lamb is central, is never led away from the first blessing to look for a “second blessing.” Christ earned all the benefits of salvation for his people, and the first and greatest of these is justification.
      Trinity Foundation

    125. Dan1el
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:38 am

      William Lowery,
      Are you kidding? It is Romans 8 that can disproves OSAS almost more than any other chapter – Paul, speaking to saved believers, says IF they live for the flesh, they will die; but IF for the Spirit, they will live [Ro 8:13].

      This is the same concept of eternal life as being a “harvest” of sowing to the Spirit, [Galatians 6:7].

    126. Jonathan
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:57 am

      William, you wrote in post # 120, “Jonathan I WILL give you an answer to your verses….why do you continue to ignore the questions I raise!” Exactly which specific questions did you raise?

      You also bring up Hebrews 9:16 but I’m not exactly sure what point you are trying to raise with this particular Scripture. Please explain.

      I have already spoken about Jonah 2:9 “But I will sacrifice to you with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.” in post # 115.

      I am not interested in getting into the words of Spurgeon or Finney or Pawson or any other man. You will notice that I have not included a single quote except for Scripture. There are men who have studied the Bible and have knowledge of what it says. But in the end they are fallible men. So I am most concerned about the words of Scripture and that is all I have quoted. I would ask that you do the same when conversing with me.

    127. Jonathan
      July 20th, 2012 @ 12:53 pm

      In response to Matt 5:13 you say, “The “savour” here supposed that it may be lost, cannot mean the savour of grace, or true grace itself, which cannot be lost, being an incorruptible seed;” Yet we see in the parable of the sower that the seed (while it is quite true that it is incorruptible) can be trampled and eaten by birds, can be killed by lack of a root in the ground, or can be choked out even after taking root and starting to produce fruit. So while the seed itself is incorruptible, the fields which represent the hearts of men are not incorruptible. So your premise here is incorrect.

      You say, “ Look at the context of the whole chapter..He is warning the disciples to be diligent to press on and eventually receive a full reward.” And I do look at the context of the whole chapter. After He warns about the salt losing its savour and exorts to shine our light before men, he starts teaching about righteousness and warning that “except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.” (Matt 5:20).

      You say, “While we are saved sovereignly be the Lord’s grace…he sets a race before us to be ran”. And 1 Corinthians 9:24-27 says, “Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.” So Paul speaks of the urgency of running in a way as to obtain the prize while the last verse speaks of the possibility of coming up short. Yes, it is true as you say “(if we are wise allowing Him to lead and empower us)” but there are also the foolish, such as the foolish virgins who once had their lamps lit but let them go out and missed the wedding feast.

      You say about Matt 24:12 “This might be true of such, who were real believers in Christ; who might fall under great temptations, through the prevalence of iniquity; But it does not say their love shall be lost, but wax cold. I wonder if the works/righteousness doctrine which has gained the dominance in the last175 years, could have contributed to the sad results we are witnessing today!” Yet you have apparently missed the context of the verse. Why will love grow cold? The verse specifically says that it is because of lawlessness that the love of many will grow cold in the first place. So it would seem that it is a lack of people taking to heart a message of repentance and holy living that led to their love growing cold in the first place; quite the opposite of what you are trying to say. And look at the next verse, “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” If it was impossible for someone not to endure to the end, why would Jesus have said that?

      As for Luke 9:62, I disagree with you that it is only talking about preaching the kingdom, but given the context, I will concede that it is a possible valid interpretation.

      You say “Gal1:6 The apostle now enters on the subject matter of this epistle, and immediately tells the reason for it, which is to reprove the Galatians for their instability in the Gospel; and, if possible, to reclaim them, who were removing from the simplicity of it”. I would agree, so how could they have been removed from the Gospel? In John 15, Jesus speaks about what will happen when a person is removed from the vine. Paul does not want that to happen to the Galatians. But this only proves that someone can be removed, does it not?

      And it bears pointing out that Galatians 5 is not put into context without a proper understanding of the whole chapter. The end of the chapter cannot be divorced from the rest of it.

      In response to 1 Corinthians 15 you say “It (the Gospel) was the means of their salvation, and had been made the power of God unto salvation to them. “ And I don’t disagree with that, but the issue is that Paul implies that there is the possibility that they can believe in the Gospel in vain. He indicates in verse 1 that they received the Gospel that he preached and were currently standing in it. So we are not talking about false or fake converts here or else Paul was wrong. (I do not deny that there are false or fake converts. But Paul indicates that is not the case here.) Yet Paul indicated that was not enough. They must hold onto the message. They must keep it in memory or their belief would be in vain. You bring up the parable of the sower. But keep in mind that the thorny soil had seed that started producing fruit. So if the seed was producing fruit in the soil, it was not a false belief but rather a belief that had been lost and choked out.

      Your response to 1 Timothy 4:1 is basically a long and rambling response where you qualify the verse in a manner that the text itself does not qualify and explain why the Scripture itself cannot mean what it says. The Scripture does not say that these people would depart from the church or depart from the sheepfold. We know that there are fake converts who will depart from among us who were not really a part of us in the first place. But this Scripture is not referring to them. It says these particular people would depart from the faith. You can’t depart from the faith if you didn’t have it in the first place. These are the believers who were connected to the vine and then cut off (John 15) and were producing fruit in the thorny soil but then “becometh unfruitful” (Mark 4:19).

      So I can accept your response on Luke 9:62. But as I have shown, your responses are not adequate to show how the rest of the verses do not contradict once saved, always saved.

    128. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 20th, 2012 @ 2:50 pm

      Isn’t it amazing to see how every exhortation in Scripture, every call to holiness and obedience, is basically written off by our friend Bill as irrelevant — and worse still, mixing law with grace?! I guess Peter didn’t get it either:

      “His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have. (2 Pet 1:3-12 ESV)

    129. Jonathan
      July 20th, 2012 @ 5:09 pm

      Ron, you are treading on dangerous ground! The words of Scripture are inspired by God. And that includes Paul’s writings. Scripture does not contradict Scripture. A proper understanding and interpretation of Scripture will bear out that all of Scripture is in perfect harmony. This includes Galatians.

      I will again repeat the same question to you that I asked of William. Are there certain Scriptures we should NOT love or not want to use? 2 Tim 3:16 says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”.
      So we can’t just wish away Scriptures we don’t like and pretend they are not there. You could say the interpretation of a certain Scripture that William or others are using is incorrect, but then you would have to show (from the text of the verse) why that interpretation is wrong and what the correct interpretation would be.

      The moment we start cutting out verses of Scripture we don’t like, that is heresy.

    130. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 20th, 2012 @ 5:40 pm

      A very important and relevant article by Prof. Robert Gagnon: http://www.robgagnon.net/articles/homosexAlanChambersChristianityTodayRespShort.pdf

    131. ron david metcalf
      July 20th, 2012 @ 11:10 pm

      William & Jonathan,
      okay, since you insist…
      Start with Gal.3:10, referring to Deut. 27:26.
      The Covenant of Moab was an addendum to the Sinai Covenant, related to the later blessings and curses of Shechem (‘the shoulder’) between Mt. Ebal (evil) and Mt. Gerizim, which I’ve covered extensively in long studies over many years (far too much for here). But these specific curses by no means imply that every minor statute and ordinance are God-ordained; see Ezek. 20:25,26. In fact, the specific curses of Dt. 27 to which “all” refers is not that hard to follow; so I would say, yes, you can confirm all of this particular set. Let me counter with, ok, if you love GOD and love your neighbor, does that make you a bondslave to ‘all the Law’? Should I hate God and neighbor to not be bound by law?
      Gal. 5:12: is Paul’s crude joke worthy of the apostle? First Paul argues Abraham’s faith, then he contradicts himself by calling circumcision ‘the law’, when it was ‘the sign of the covenant’ between Abraham and GOD!
      How about Paul’s ‘list’ in Gal. 5:19-21? If you do these things, you can’t inherit the kingdom; is this not ‘law’? I’ve given you three examples, without even approaching the ‘Hagar’ argument; so give me your best apologetics of why Paul is inerrant. BTW, Paul rejects the ‘inerrancy doctrine’ himself when he says, “this is me speaking, and not the Spirit…” Bibliolatry is heresy: when Sennacherib speaks, it is not Truth!
      In Him, Ron M.

    132. william lowery
      July 21st, 2012 @ 1:23 am

      That you refuse to address the “One sacrifice” whereby believers are “perfected forever….i assume you have no answer because it doesn’t fit in your works/righteousness theory!
      Hebrews 10 that when the Lord Jesus Christ came into the world and offered Himself without spot to God, the effect of His sacrifice was eternal. Verse 14 makes this clear: “For by one offering He hath perfected FOR EVER them that are sanctified.” Perfected for how long? “Oh,” says somebody, “as long as they are faithful.” No, that is not what it says. “He hath perfected for ever.” Why? Because the sacrifice is all-efficacious.

      I am sure you guys that deny the doctrine of the eternal security of the believer do not realize that in so doing you are putting a slight upon the finished work of Christ, you are reducing the sacrifice of Christ practically to the level of the offerings of bulls and goats in the Old Testament dispensation. I am sure you don’t mean to do that, for surly you love the Lord just as truly as I trust and love Him, and surly you do not want to dishonor Him. As Mike has stated several times you are afraid that this doctrine will lead people to be careless about their lives, and therefore the stress on the possibility of a man losing his salvation after he has once been justified by faith. But you do not pursue that to its logical conclusion; Can’t you see that it is a practical denial of the finished work of our Lord Jesus. We are saved eternally because the sacrifice of Christ abides.

      When I came to Jesus in 1966 and put my trust in Him, not only were all my sins up to the day of my conversion forgiven, but all my sins were put away for eternity. When a young Christian, I was taught something like this(A/Gs): I thought when I was converted that all my sins, from the time of my accountability up to that night when I put my trust in the Lord Jesus, those sins were put away, and now God had given me a new start, and if I could only keep the record clean to the end of my life, I would get to heaven; but if I did not keep it clean, I ceased to be a Christian and I had to get converted all over again. Every time this happened the past was under the blood, but I had to keep the record clean for the future. I have come to see what a God-dishonoring view of the atonement of Christ that is! If only those of my sins that were committed up to the moment of my conversion were put away by the atoning blood of Jesus, what possible way would there be by which sins I have confessed after that could be dealt with? The only ground on which God could forgive sin is that Jesus settled all upon the cross, and when I trust Him (with the GIFT of faith HE GAVE me), all that He has done goes down to my account. You really are straining at nats and swallowing camels! What about the LAMB? I guess …..as your faith is…. so be it unto you! Trust your self-efforts to keep you holy enough, righteous enough, obedient enough (none of you have defined HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH)…….I’ll seek FIRST HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS…and HE has promised me …to ADD ALL THINGS whatsoever I am in need of!! Matt 6:33

    133. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 9:04 am

      William, thanks for your testimony; now we can begin.
      I don’t disagree with Yeshua Messiah as One Sacrifice, nor does Dr. Brown, nor do most of the people blogging on these threads.
      The Messianic Message, in a nutshell, returns to the beliefs of the First Church, the Jerusalem Church, that Paul endorses in (primarily) Romans and Ephesians; now compare to how Jesus exhorts us to “Return to our First Love” in what the Spirit says to he Church of Ephesus in Revelation 2. I grew up Southern Baptist; meaning 90% Paul preached every Sunday; but was commissioned by GOD by Ezekiel 34 when I rededicated myself to the LORD just prior to 1990. I can’t say 100% that the book of James (Jacob) is the official reply to Galatians; but put them side-by-side, and you see a formal debate.
      Our disagreement is not about Jesus of Nazareth; we agree 100%; it is about the theology of “finished work” v “continuing work”. Can I “enter GOD’s rest” and “prove my faith by my works” at the same time? My answer is yes, this is entirely possible! In a very real way, this is not “working on the Sabbath” to me, for it is my Joy to continually mine the treasures of GOD!
      In Him, Ron M.

    134. Jonathan
      July 21st, 2012 @ 10:35 am

      Ron, what you are proposing is nothing short of heretical. Please think carefully about what you are saying. I view what William is saying as dangerous. But I believe what you are saying is quite more so!

      I will give you some links to ponder. But I want to say outright that I vehemently reject what you are saying.

      2 Tim 3:16 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”.

      2 Pet 1:15-21 “Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance. For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

      And notice that Peter specifically defends the words of Paul:

      2 Peter 3:15-17 “And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.”

      The fact that Paul specifically makes a point to tell you when he is giving advice that he did not specifically hear from God only strengthens the fact that we are to take anything else that is said as being inspired directly from God.

      If we are to say that there are certain writers or books of the Bible that are not inerrant, then how would we know which are and which aren’t? What would be the good of studying the Bible at all? If the words of Scripture are not true then we may as well chuck it and not pay any attention to it whatsoever. But that is not the case. We can trust the words of Scripture, even if there are Scriptures we may not understand, we don’t write it off. We pray that God will give us the wisdom to understand what it means.

      I am very worried about you. I will pray for you.

      http://reknew.org/2010/03/ezekiel-2025-26-and-the-condesending-god/

      http://lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVanswers/2006/03-22.htm

      http://carm.org/paul-inspired-speaking-not-god

      http://bible.org/seriespage/bible-inerrant-word-god

    135. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 11:17 am

      Jonathan,
      it is clearly evident in both Acts and Galatians that Paul had a disagreement with the Jerusalem Church. The traditional position is that Paul unequivocally won, putting the “so-called pillars” in their subordinate place. Is this your “harmony of Scripture”? I can give you at least 20 references that GOD will NEVER forsake Israel (you are fully capable of finding them yourself); but again, the traditional “Gentile” position still in place by majority opinion is that Israel has been replaced!
      So to maintain your “unity”, you must contend that Paul is the Final Word concerning the Bible; which I contend is heresy, because it makes Paul god instead of Jesus of Nazareth (eg Matt. 5:17-20). Peter had been rebuked by Yeshua Messiah; Paul’s rebuke would have meant little to him; he could walk above the debate. Paul’s mission was to the Gentiles, with a few agreed-upon instructions; the Corinthians quickly gave him a lesson in “lawless” freedom. Jesus of Nazareth was Transfigured with Moses and Elijah present; to say that Paul’s theology is better is heresy. I know you aren’t used to this; but I have been debating it for over 20 years. Count how many times Jesus refers to the Father in the Gospels; then explain how you can dismiss this to maintain “harmony”.
      In Him, Ron M.

    136. Jonathan
      July 21st, 2012 @ 11:26 am

      William, in response to post # 132, just as you have confused the incorruptible seed with the corruptible ground in the parable of the sower, you have confused the state of the “one sacrifice” (of Hebrews 10) which is finished and eternal and the state of the corporate body of believers that are being sanctified with the state of an individual believer.

      As the saying goes: ”A text without a context is a pretext for a prooftext”

      And this instance is no exception. If verse 14 really meant what you are proclaiming it to mean, then it would contradict the last half of the chapter. We know that the Scripture does not contradict itself if taken in proper context.

      So what does verse 14 mean? If we look at the verse, who exactly is the “one offering” perfecting forever? The Scripture say it is “those who are being sanctified.” So if an individual know longer places himself in the group of those who are being sanctified, they will not be perfected forever. It is a group of people who are being perfected forever, it is not an individual who receives the guarantee. And the guarantee made to the group is not invalidated if an individual fails to remain in that group.

      And John 15 as well as Galatians 1:6, Hebrews 3:12 and others clearly show that this is not speaking about an individual unless they remain in the vine.

      This does not mean that Christ’s sacrifice is ineffectual or has failed in any way. It only means that the sacrifice has to be applied in the exact manner that God tells us to. Just as the sacrifice Passover lamb that represented Christ had no effect if it was not a lamb without blemish that had it’s blood applied to the doorpost, we cannot be presumptuous enough to believe that Christ’s sacrifice can be applied in any manner other than the way that His Word has proscribed.

      Verse 22 encourages us not to waver because He is faithful. If we fail to heed that, it is not Christ who is unfaithful; it is us.

      As I have shown in post # 127, your interpretations of the verses I asked about fail to accurately deal with the verses. The verses properly interpreted refute your interpretation of Hebrews 10.

    137. Jonathan
      July 21st, 2012 @ 11:43 am

      Ron,

      You seem to be unaware of the difference between a Biblical narrative of events and a Biblical teaching.

      There can be people who say things within a narrative of events as recorded by Scripture that are not correct. Exhibit A: Satan speaks to different people and his lies are recorded in Scripture. Exhibit B: (which you already provided) the conversation of Sennacherib. But a Biblical teaching where the author is teaching the words given to Him by God is not an instance where errors occur.

      And the fact that replacement theology is an error does not in any way mean the words of Scripture are in error. It means that the interpretations of men about the words of Scripture that have been inspired by God are in error.

      The fact that you do not understand how Jesus’ and Paul’s words can be understood in harmony does not mean that they are not in harmony.

      I am not placing Paul above Jesus. I am saying that the words of all the writers were inspired by Him. So Jesus is not subordinate to Paul, it is the other way around. But the writings of Paul are completely true.

      I do not understand the point you are trying to make with your last statement.

      But you have not addressed the words from Scripture that I provided in my last post. Or do you believe that those words are another example of errant teaching in Scripture?

    138. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 12:55 pm

      Are Billy Graham or Jack Hayford’s words ‘inspired’, or ‘inerrant’? Paul’s epistles were not declared ‘inerrant’ until the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. But, by Jesus’ words, the least apostle is greater in the Kingdom of GOD than the greatest prophet; yet teaching the Commandments makes an apostle even greater (Matt. 5:19)! Not many would say that Peter or John were inerrant; so what makes Paul inerrant? I understand that you are talking about Scripture; but by making every verse too-holy-to-touch, aren’t you doing the same thing the Pharisees did: looking at the ‘letter’ instead of the ‘heart’? What is the alternative? On one hand; spirit without law; on the other: Bibliolatry. Is there a third? Follow Jesus of Nazareth, as He said; not Paul, not Moses.
      In Him, Ron M.

    139. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 21st, 2012 @ 1:53 pm

      Ron,

      I’m with others here in sounding a clear warning to you about not seeing the entire NT equally as God’s Word. Peter himself recognized Paul’s writings as Scripture (2 Pet 3:15-16). What you call “bibliolatry” I call gospel truth. And how do you even know what Jesus said unless His followers accurately recorded His message and wrote it down for us?

    140. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 21st, 2012 @ 1:55 pm

      Ron,

      I made my comments before I read Jonathan’s. He has covered the ground much more thoroughly, and again, I share his concerns very deeply.

    141. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 3:07 pm

      “entire NT equally”.
      Let’s start with 1 Timothy 2:11,12.
      Either Joyce Meyer and the A of G are going to land in the pit for what they are doing, or else this is Paul’s advice and not really “Scripture” (the Greek being “graphos”= “writing”, but translated “scripture” consistently.) I’m not even going to get into the hard stuff now; let’s begin easy.
      See The Scripture Principle by Clark H. Pinnock, Harper and Row, 1984; over 200 pages where I won’t even give a synopsis, for to do so would water down all the examples it cites. This was the first book I was confronted with when I returned to the LORD; given to me by a pastor who was having an affair with an elder’s wife, who eventually had a child by him.
      This didn’t deter me a bit; I made a vow to go to the end with Jesus no matter what.
      The Jerusalem Church deferred to Paul’s missionary endeavor, leaving him alone; but never submitted to him, unless you can prove to me otherwise. Therefore, the discussion is still open as to Paul in Galatians v Jacob in James; Martin Luther did not close the record.
      In Him, Ron M.

    142. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 21st, 2012 @ 3:59 pm

      Ron,

      I’ll let others discuss this with you, but again, I categorically differ with you and find your position to be terribly dangerous and yes, heretical.

    143. Jonathan
      July 21st, 2012 @ 4:00 pm

      Ron, I don’t know much about Clark H. Pinnock, but it seems that he not only hold to an unorthodox view of Scripture but also holds to open theism and annihilationism. Regardless, there have been several Scriptures provided by myself and Dr. Brown along with statements about the subject and also several questions have been asked by both of us.

      If these are not addressed, there is no point continuing the conversation about this topic.

    144. Jonathan
      July 21st, 2012 @ 4:08 pm

      Also, I’m not exactly sure why you shared the intimate details of the person who recommended this book to you. This in and of itself does not refute the book. But your choice of references about the recommendation of this book seem a little less than stellar. If we are to judge by the fruit, as Jesus said, it’s not promising. But then again, maybe Jesus didn’t really say it. After all, we only have the writings of men who could have been writing errors about what Jesus actually said, correct?

    145. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 21st, 2012 @ 6:31 pm

      One other note: Ron has made clear that he rejects certain portions of God’s Word as being God’s Word, and he can invite others to engage him on that topic elsewhere. We’ll keep the focus here on OSAS, as per our policy to stay on the topic of the thread.

    146. ron david metcalf
      July 21st, 2012 @ 6:43 pm

      I wish to make one more statement before I am ‘cut off’.
      Pinnock is a “conservative Baptist evangelical” who gives a very even-handed discussion. But he also doesn’t run from discrepancies. Coming back from 20 years of backsliding, this was meant to shake my recommitment; but it didn’t.
      Let me define my terms specifically:
      Bibliolatry allows us to equate Paul of Tarsus with Jesus of Nazareth, something we would not dare do with any other human being. Identifying and dismissing this heresy allows us to return to a healthy understanding of Scripture:
      for GOD will not allow Himself to be placed in Isaiah’s level plain, except as Fellow-sufferer and Savior of the world (to whomsoever is willing).
      Thank you for allowing me to participate in this discussion.
      In Jesus’ love and name, Ron David Metcalf

    147. David Roberts
      July 21st, 2012 @ 8:00 pm

      My study of key passages in the Hebrew Bible and NT have made me conclude that the past tense does not save, but the participle (the present continuous tense). To put it simply:

      There is NOTHING you can do (once) to save yourself,
      but there IS something you can BE DOING to be saved.

      To be continually placing your faith in God, to be serving Him, loving Him, walking on His narrow path.

      “For God thus loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever goes on believing in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16″

      Just look up all the salvation verses in the Hebrew and the Greek and notice how often the participle is being used.

    148. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 21st, 2012 @ 9:05 pm

      Ron,

      I’m glad you returned to the Lord, but there were obviously some hiccups along the way that got you to a partial understanding of the truth, and that deeply concerns me. You are also misunderstanding or misrepresenting what we believe when we speak of the inspiration of the Scriptures, and remember, if the apostles weren’t inspired in what they wrote, then you have no way of even knowing what Jesus actually said.

      In any case, no one is cutting you off here, but we only allow comments that are on the subject matter of the thread, so if you can find a relevant thread somewhere on this site, by all means invite others to join you there.

      I do pray that you will go back to the Lord and ask Him for insight and help so you can be properly grounded in the truth of God and the God of truth.

    149. ron david metcalf
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 7:28 am

      I’m not trying to get the final word; but you aren’t allowing my defense.
      By declaring Paul infallible, you are compromising your Messianic position; and causing yourself trouble as to enforcing women not speaking, hair and dress codes, and other ‘lists’ (ie for leadership) that Paul clearly put in place. This has nothing to so with the gospel record or Revelation whatsoever.
      In Him, Ron M.

    150. Jonathan
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 9:04 am

      Ron, you can’t start with a pet doctrine or pet doctrines and then determine from them which Scripture you will accept. It is possible that your acceptance of those Scriptures would mean changing your positions on those doctrines. Or it could be that you don’t have a proper view of the interpretation of those Scriptures and they may not be saying what you believe them to be saying. Either way, your starting point for determining what should and should not be viewed as Scripture based on your pre-supposed doctrine is not healthy and leads to cultism. As Dr. Brown has repeatedly said. If we can’t be sure of the Scriptures written by Paul, why should we be sure of the Scriptures written by any of the others?

    151. Dan1el
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 12:11 pm

      Robert A.J. Gagnon teaches that the NT is NOT INFALLIBLE – just as I have observed.

      Thanks.

    152. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 12:40 pm

      Ron,

      Sorry, but you’ll have to drop the subject here, since it is NOT the focus of this thread, and you’ll have to accept that this is not the place to defend what I and others consider to be a serious and dangerous error, one that relates to the very nature of the gospel itself. I don’t moderate the posts on this site, but I’m asking you politely to drop the subject of the inspiration of the NT from this thread to avoid your comments having to be moderated from here on. And to repeat: If you find another thread where this is relevant, you can invite to join you there or elsewhere online, but not here. Your position is dangerous and against the Scriptures themselves, and once more, I’m urging you to step back and reconsider your viewpoint.

    153. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 12:42 pm

      Dan1el, Robert Gagnon is a terrific Scripture scholar with wonderful insights into the text, and he certainly takes Paul’s words as inspired by the Spirit. At the same time, he holds to some critical views re: authorship of some OT and NT books, as reflected in his magnum opus on homosexual practice and the Bible. But with that, we’ll close out this discussion here and return to the subject at hand, namely, OSAS.

    154. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 12:43 pm

      One more note: ALL POSTS FROM HERE ON THAT ARE NOT ON THE TOPIC OF THIS THREAD (NAMELY, ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED) WILL BE DELETED.

    155. Jonathan
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 4:29 pm

      Sorry about the change of subject, Dr. Brown. I’ll put this passage forward to bring it back to the topic “Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these: Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things SHALL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.” Galatians 5:19-23. (emphasis added)

    156. Jonathan
      July 22nd, 2012 @ 4:37 pm

      And one more: Matt 18:23-35 ” Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
      And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
      But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”

    157. Mark Phillips
      July 26th, 2012 @ 6:08 am

      I have put a comment on another thread to do with the lack of fear among POTS-adherents,but I want to put a link to an article on the fear-ectomy POTS-pastors perform on those in the ‘pews’ on this thread – because this is a thread dealing with SALVATION ; and POTS is a salvation matter (as previously mentioned in a prior comment,I believe POTS to be a first cousin of OSAS – with Augustine as the common grandfather).

      The article features quotes of both Robert Shank and John Piper (Piper is a POTS-adherent).

      Note also,in Chapter 3 Note 7 of Michael’s book ‘Go And Sin No more’,Michael recommends the book by Robert Shank from which the quote in the article is taken (‘Life In The Son’).

      http://evangelicalarminians.org/?q=Perseverance-Assurance-Robert-Shank-on-Calvinist-Pastors-and-the-Warninig-Passages-of-Scripture

      Do read the article.

    158. william lowery
      July 29th, 2012 @ 9:06 am

      What God begins, he finishes

      Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.

      Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.

      Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.

      Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.

      Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

      Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

      2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

    159. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 29th, 2012 @ 11:33 am

      So then, Bill, based on these verses, you believe that if someone claims to be a follower of Jesus but dies in unrepentant sin, they were never saved, correct? Of course, some of the verses you cited have absolutely no connection to the salvation of an individual believer, but let’s say Phil 1:6 does (you could have also quoted 1 Cor 1:8). That would mean that a true believer will never fall away and, again, if someone dies in unrepentant sin that person was never saved. So, if, God forbid, you died in unrepentant sin and away from the Lord, that would prove you were never truly saved, correct?

    160. Boris
      July 29th, 2012 @ 11:53 am

      David Roberts reprinted this: “For God thus loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever goes on believing in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16″

      When you just think about it for a moment you realize that this supposed message of salavation is really a hateful threat: “For God so hated humanity that he gave his only begotten Son that whosoever does not believe in him will not perish but have everlasting life being tortured for all eternity in Hell without hope of forgiveness.”

    161. Mark Phillips
      July 30th, 2012 @ 4:58 am

      I think it may prove edifying to a Calvinist,to ask them if they have any record of Calvin repenting for what he desired,did and (twice) defended (refering here to what happened to Michael Servetus).

      If they do not have any such record of repentance – and based on their belief in POTS – are they therefore willing to entertain the thought that Calvin was never really saved ?

      If they are not willing to consider such a thought,is it not then an incredible case of double standards ? Is it one rule for the father of POTS doctrine,and another for everyone else ?

    162. william lowery
      July 30th, 2012 @ 1:35 pm

      Michael, once again you reveal that you do not believe the clear teaching of Paul and others… that man is totally depraved…and can do nothing to save himself or please God. I guarantee that you, me, and all others who have ever died or will die …will go down to the grave with “unconfessed sin”! There is no doubt that you have “unconfessed sin even now” FOR your heart is DESPERATELY WICKED..who can KNOW IT? This is what TRUE REPENTANCE” is about…..Repenting (changing our minds) that we can in anyway shape or form…by our own merits satisfy the requirements to be accepted into a relationship with ALL MIGHTY GOD! ONLY JESUS AND JESUS ALONE can bring us into right standing, and HE did that at the CROSS!

      “Pastors, evangelists, teachers — let the seriousness of Jesus’ harsh words sink into your soul. “…better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.”
      Nothing aroused the wrath of Jesus more than an attack on his truth. We think we see his wrath at full peak when he drives the moneychangers out of the temple. But that’s nothing compared to the indictment he brings now. Here his words come across even stronger — because he knew this mixture of works with the cross could bring down the entire church.
      I know a Russian pastor who preaches that no one’s salvation is complete until he or she has suffered first. This man once told me, “Your congregation has no right to rejoice until you’ve all paid your dues with hard times.”
      No — never. As a minister of God, I tremble as I hear what Jesus is telling his church here: If any of us, in any form of ministry, advocates man-made moral codes, legalistic rules or any other human standards as being necessary to salvation, we face the holy wrath of God himself. If we burden down any child of Jesus with our own denominational standards, we’d be better off drowned at sea.” David Wilkerson “New Covenant Unveiled”

    163. Dan1el
      July 30th, 2012 @ 4:50 pm

      William Lowery,
      No one is saying to “add human-powered works”; what we’re saying is that we must submit to the grace of God.

      The grace of God “KNOCKS” at the door [Rv 3]; it is up to MEN to open the door, as Jesus Himself confessed. In Jesus’s Own Words, He is waiting on man to comply – He has done His part; He will not tear down the door. Now, He waits for the response – and that is speaking even about SAVED people!

      This is why it says “today, after so long a time, if you hear His Voice, do not harden your hearts” and “My righteous one will live by faith; but if any man shrinks back, My Soul will find no pleasure in Him.” This is why Romans 11:17-23 says that both the unbelieving natural branches who had been cut off and the believing wild branches that had been grafted in through faith have EQUAL OPPORTUNITY both to be grafted in and to be cut off STILL: men can reject God (even as the Laodiceans were doing) for any sin (this is the warning of Hebrews, where it says “do not harden your heart” “lest your heart be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”), even after being saved.

    164. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 30th, 2012 @ 5:01 pm

      William, the more I read your posts, the more I wonder how you’re living and what sin there is in your life that you’re trying to justify. Are you not a new creation in Christ (2 Cor 5)? Are you not dead to sin and alive to God (Rom 6)? Isn’t it true that the Son has set you free and you are free indeed, and therefore no longer a slave to sin (John 8)? Isn’t it true that sin is no longer your master (Rom 6)? Haven’t you put to death the deeds of the flesh (Col 3)? Or are you still enslaved to sin and walking in the flesh willfully? If so, where is the evidence of your salvation?

      As for David Wilkeron’s New Covenant Unveiled book, as I and others pointed out to repeatedly, it preaches the opposite of what you preach.

      Sadly, you are the one denying the life-changing power of the gospel, not to mention misrepresenting every single post that differs with your position, a position that would cause Calvinists of old to cringe, since they preached that holiness of life was a clear proof of salvation (not a cause of it, but a proof of it).

      Your argument is with God, Bill, not with me. I’ll leave you with Paul’s words, which I pray you will accept rather than reject: 12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires.
      13 Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness.
      14 For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.
      15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
      16 Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey–whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
      17 But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted.
      18 You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
      19 I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.
      20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
      21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death!
      22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.
      23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
      (Rom 6:12-23 NIV)

    165. william lowery
      July 31st, 2012 @ 2:26 am

      Dear Mike, there are so many marvelous scriptures that assure us that God is able to save and keep us to the end! But those of you who believe in probational salvation or as I call it the “doctrine of falling away”….. would rob believers of these precious promises by saying and teaching that just because He is able to do something doesn’t mean that He WILL do it! Heb 2:18 He is able to aid those who are tempted, Phil 3:21 He is able to subdue ALL things unto Himself. So there must be some question in your mind IF He really is able and WILLING to perform that which He says He is able to do ! Paul certainly thought He was…2 Tim 4:18 The Lord WILL deliver me from EVERY evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom! And the Hebrew writer Heb 7:25 “He is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through (there on merits?) HIM, since He ALWAYS LIVES to make intercession for them” Plil 1:6 He who has begun a good work in you WILL preform it until the day of Jesus Christ Our God and Savior!… HE IS ABLE to keep us from stumbling, and to present us FAULTLESS before the presence of His Glory with EXCEEDING joy! Jude 1:24…Try to believe that our glorious Lord is able to keep, save,subdue, and aid those who are tempted. And in all these cases His ability is equivalent to His PERFORMANCE! The fact that He is able includes the PROMISE that He WILL do it!………A lot of the verses that you use to attack eternal security are clarified then the word is rightly divided and a distinction is drawn between a believer’s position and his practice…..between his standing and his state! The moment a sinner is converted…..(you do believe that is a sovereign work of God , don’t you?)…God from that moment sees him “in Christ”. God accepts him, not because of what he is in himself, BUT because he is in the Beloved. Because a believer is in Christ, he is COMPLETE, that is, he does not need ANYTHING else to make him fit for heaven! He has PERFECT standing before God, NOT because of any merit of his own, but solely because of the merits of Christ. He (the sinner)_ is as near to God as Christ is, and loved by the Farther just as Christ is!…………..This standing is reached by GRACE thru faith, apart from any “meritorious” works. And once it is reached, it can NEVER be forfeited. Christ would have to lose His position of acceptance with God ..before a child of God could lose his!!!
      How our practice comes in to play and God knows our practice will NEVER PERFECTLY correspond to our position..not in this life! Our state will never match our standing until we see Him face to face…in the meantime God’s will is that we grow in His likeness while here on earth…..I think we call this progressive sanctification! This explains the MANY exhortations to holiness in the NT! They ARE NOT commandments with the threat of eternal doom, rather they are instructions in righteousness for THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SAVED BY GRACE! This IS GOD’S way of producing holiness. Grace says, “I GIVE you a PERFECT position as a GIFT of grace. Now, out of love to me, the Savior who died to make it possible, …live in a manner that is worthy of this position.”…..LAW says (by contrast) “Earn and keep your position by deeds of merit (impossible), and IF YOU DON’T, you are doomed.” Rom 6:11-23 is one of those passages…the first ten verses (1-10) Paul speaks of our position in Christ…ie. we died with Him! …..It seems strange that you who support “conditional salvation” try and use this chapter! That this was written to christians is obvious, is it not?…Why would Paul warn them that the wages of sin is death…IF they couldn’t lose their salvation and perish? Is that not your reasoning? You are completely missing the apostle’s line of teaching! He has been contrasting what his readers were BEFORE conversion, with what they are now by grace. they WERE salves of sin; now they are slaves of righteousness. They WERE slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness; and NOW they are to be slaves of righteousness for holiness! They WERE slaves of sin; NOW they they are salves of God. To complete the CONTRAST, he reminds them that before they came to Christ, they were earning the wages of sin, namely , eternal death! NOW as believers they ENJOY the GIFT OF GOD, namely, ETERNAL LIFE in Christ Jesus our Lord…..HE IS NOT trying to prove that spiritual death may be THERE eternal destiny, BUT STATING that eternal life IS there portion..now and forever!! In fact this passage actually describes one of the strongest reasons why our salvation is secure. We can not sin away our salvation, because we have been born again and it is no longer our inclination to SIN. Heres a little quote from Spurgeon;”Through the influence of Christ’s death upon our souls, the Holy Ghost has made us now to be actually “dead to sin”..that is to say, we no longer love them, and they have ceased to hold dominion over us. Sin is no longer at home in our hearts; if it enters there it is an intruder. We are no more its willing servants. Sin call to us by temptation, but we give it no answer, for we are dead to its voice! Sin promises us a high reward, but we do not consent, for we are dead to its allurements. We sin, but our will is not to sin. It would be heaven to us to be perfectly holy. Our heart and life go after perfection, sin is abhorred of our soul. “Now, if I do that which I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelteth in me”. Our truest and most real self loathes sin; and though we fall into it, it is a fall—we are out of our element, and escape from the evil with all speed. the newborn life within us has no dealings with sin, it is dead to sin”……….. v14 seals it “”For sin shall NOT (promise) have dominion over you,…for YOU are NOT under LAW but under grace” Unconverted people are under law. The law tells you what to do, gives you no power to obey, and then cruses when you fail!……..GRACE tells us what to do, gives us the desire and power to do it …AND THEN REWARDS US FOR DOING IT!! If sin is some one’s master, then that person has never been born again…..thou we Must be careful in judging…especially new borns……a smoking ember he will not quench..a bruised reed He WILL NOT BREAK! PS… Wilkerson was not preaching the opposite of what I am preaching….. maybe what YOU THINK I’m preaching……….Before he died Dave got the revelation that he had ….nothing before God except the imputed perfect righteousness of Christ……nothing of himself to offer to God! AW Tozer.. said the “holiest man will always be the man that in his heart conceders himself to be the chiefest of all sinners! YES I am a sinner in need of a Savior every day, every hour, every minute to justify and cover my human failings, whether big or small, with His precious blood! I have no hope but HIM! Michael……you have NO sins that YOU NEED justified???????????? Daniel….you really need to do a study on the branches to which you refer……plainly Paul is speaking of Nations squandering their “day of visitation” from the Lord! I believe America and the western nation are just about there …..ready to be cut off…and the natural branch (Israel) will be grafted back in!! Tell me you are not doing what Wilkerson did for years;

      Beloved, God is asking the same question of every gospel preacher today. He’s telling us, “Stop trying to get dead people to obey me. Quit trying to produce holiness in dead men by commanding them to get up out of their graves. Can lifeless corpses do what you ask of them?”
      I spent years preaching to dead, dry bones. I would scream to the lifeless believers in front of me, “Why are you letting your sin ruin and destroy you? Get up out of your grave of iniquity, and walk in holiness.” Yet if their spirits could have talked, they would have answered, “I can’t, preacher. Can’t you see I’m dead? I don’t have any power to do what you’re asking, because there is no life in me.”I said they were believers, yet dead. How could that be, if no one can be saved unless the Holy Spirit is at work in him?

      There was a point in my life when I had to cast my eternal future on God’s covenant promises. I determined to trust his covenant oath at the risk of my very soul. I put out this challenge to almighty God: “Lord, I’m going to believe you’ve given me your Holy Ghost. I believe he alone can deliver me from every chain that binds me. I believe he will convict me, lead me and empower me to overcome. I believe he causes me to obey your word. And I believe he will NEVER DEPART from me, nor will he lLET ME DEPART from you. I won’t limit your Spirit in me. I’ll wait on him, call on him and trust in him — live or die.”

      If we continue in sin, we will face the rod of God.
      The Psalmist writes the following about one of God’s prime covenant promises: “If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; if they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail. My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips” (Psalm 89:30-34).
      We rejoice as we read this wonderful New Covenant word. God promises NEVER to remove his loving kindness from us, no matter how badly we may fall. Yet many believers skip lightly over the heavy warning in this passage: If we forsake God’s law and refuse to keep his commands, he’ll visit our transgressions with his divine rod.
      There simply isn’t any way to soften this difficult word. God is telling us plainly, in clear, New Covenant language, “If you continue in sin, I’m going to deal with it severely. I’ll pardon you and forgive you. But I’m going to take vengeance on your sin. And you’re going to feel my stripes on your back.”

      That is the keeping power of the Holy Ghost. When you are down and hurting — when you think you’ve crossed a line, and it’s all over for you — the Spirit comes in immediately to lift you up and bring you back into God’s grace. Every bit of your sin has been paid for, no matter how awful it may be. How? Jesus paid the price in full. God said by covenant, “I am going to be merciful to your sins — and I have sent my son to you as the seal of my covenant. Your fear tells you I have every right to damn you. But my covenant says my son took upon himself everything that would ever damn you. You are now free.”
      Here is what the covenant is all about. It is God’s love message to his people, saying, “I love you so much, I will never let the devil have you. I won’t let him take over your life, even when you fail me. It is impossible for you ever to stray too far from my love. There is no place in heaven or earth where you can escape it.”
      You may not have experienced supernatural power before or during your temptation. But surely it has come to you afterward. The fact is, God causes every failure by his children to reveal his everlasting love — magnifying his mercy, melting our hearts, wooing us away from sin. And, in the end, we are brought to a place where we are so awed, melted and overwhelmed by his love, we refuse to grieve the one who has shown us such mercy and kindness.
      How long do you think the devil will keep tempting you in your weak area, when each time you quickly run back to God’s grace and fall more in love with Jesus? Do you think Satan wants to keep driving you into Christ’s arms to find mercy, love and grace? No — the only sin he can tempt you with now is to attempt to turn you away from God’s incredible love. That’s where a hard heart comes from — not from falling back, but from continually rejecting God’s love.
      Now you can truly sing, “Amazing grace, how sweet the sound…” You know you deserve wrath, hell and rejection. But God’s Spirit has come to you, revealing loving kindness, forgiveness and acceptance. “Oh, the love that drew salvation’s plan. Oh, the grace that brought it down to man…”
      The secret of the Lord is a life-freeing revelation of his loving kindness to us at the point of our failures. It is the Holy Spirit enduing us with a powerful revelation that nothing can separate us from the covenant love of God. He is not mad at you — so get your eyes off your sin, and gladly receive the free access you still have to the father, through the cross of Christ.
      This secret is that your savior wants you to rejoice and be glad — because your past, present and future sins have been taken away. Be glad — then you will be privy to his secret. David Wilkerson

    166. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 31st, 2012 @ 9:59 am

      Bill, I don’t know why you keep quoting David Wilkerson. He and I were in harmony on the issue of holiness and God’s keeping power. Unfortunately, when I state what the Scriptures say about God’s keeping power, you deny it, and attack me as not understanding the gospel.

      So, Bill, is sin your master? Are you still a slave to sin? If so, something is terribly wrong. If not, then why do you preach slavery to sin? These are simple questions which do not require long answers.

    167. william lowery
      July 31st, 2012 @ 2:59 pm

      Mike, do you sin, are you sinless, have you arrived at “perfection” if not then are you a slave to sin! It seems you are preaching sinless perfection in order to get saved or saved! Do you not teach a doctrine of “falling away” or “conditional security” which is plainly salvation by works…yet you REFUSE to define which sins will dis-inherent you, unseal you, un-adopt you, remove you name from the Lambs book of life! Really Mike you can not have it both ways, there are only two beliefs in the world…those who believe they can save themselves and those who believe they need a Savior. ONLY Christianity offers a Savior. And ONLY the Christian gospel guarantees every believer a place in the fathers house. Because SALVATION is of the LORD + plus nothing! You ARE mixing grace + human effort.

    168. Dr Michael L Brown
      July 31st, 2012 @ 4:48 pm

      Bill, no, I am not a slave to sin, and I am not perfect. Sin does not have dominion over me. It is not the rule of my life, as it once was. Yet over and over again you make a mockery of the clear teaching of Scripture, accusing PAUL (and virtually every NT author) of “mixing grace + human effort.” After all, Paul was the one who wrote: “For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.” (Rom 6:19) And, “But that is not the way you learned Christ!– assuming that you have heard about him and were taught in him, as the truth is in Jesus, to put off your old self, which belongs to your former manner of life and is corrupt through deceitful desires, and to be renewed in the spirit of your minds, and to put on the new self, created after the likeness of God in true righteousness and holiness. Therefore, having put away falsehood, let each one of you speak the truth with his neighbor, for we are members one of another.” (Eph 4:20-25) And it was Peter who wrote, “Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.” (1 Pet 2:11) And it was John who wrote, “Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him purifies himself as he is pure.” (1 John 3:2-3) And it was Jesus who said, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.” (John 8:34-36)

      Honestly, Bill, since you accuse the authors of the NT of mixing grace with human effort, I have to wonder what is going on in your own life, what sin you are trying to justify, what guilty conscience you are trying to assuage, and I pray that you will come to know the glorious liberty that is ours in Jesus. And even though I have little hope of persuading you to hear me — since you won’t hear the words of Scripture and misrepresent my words and the words of Jesus and the apostles — I do hope that others reading can be helped. I wish you God’s amazing grace!

    169. joshua
      July 31st, 2012 @ 6:23 pm

      Well i’m a Missionary Baptist and as all baptists we are taught once saved always saved and there is biblical support for this. We didn’t earn salvation. We did nothing to deserve Christ coming to die for our sins, it was a meritless gift of love. I can barely stand to do communion because of the reminder of what it cost him to have to save us, that was God being nailed to that cross not some mere man! To suffer the humility of hanging on that cross, and his mistreatment and abuse by the very creatures he created. Yet he went through all this knowing full well we didn’t deserve it. That is meritted by nothing we could ever do. This is why it’s the greatest gift God could ever give. A gift is not a gift, if it can be taken away, those are gifts that are given upon a person’s personal merit and they are not true gifts.

      This is not to say we have a license to be licentious, those are the ways of the nicolaitans. A slave of sin is someone who has not been set free from it, they have not been saved yet. No man is perfect, nor can we be in these corrupted bodies. You can spend the rest of your life trying not to sin and you will slip somewhere and not even notice. The new covenant was given because we could not keep Torah, being such depraved creatures. The swine eating gentile peoples never knew Torah to begin with yet they were saved by their faith in him and his grace, the same way Abraham was saved by his faith when he came out of Ur of the Chaldees.

      Jesus is doing a mighty work to this day in this world. I was agnostic to the point i was an atheist and was entertaining ideas that we were made by extra-terrestrials if we didn’t evolve from primordial soup and Jesus brought me to him out of my despair and sorrow. When Yahweh brought Israel out of Egypt he didn’t do so just to destroy them, it was always his intentions to show the gentile peoples that he is the only God, the one who created us. The 10 plagues were desinged to mock the egyptian gods to show the egyptians who the True Soveriegn God, Yahweh is.

      Hundreds of millions of people all over the world, and millions more everyday are flocking to Jesus, even some muslim who realize Muhammad was a liar, it’s a giant neon sign with Messiah written all over it. It was prophecied of that Israel would become a home to all nations, and so it has because for everyone who flocks to Christ’s banner are adopted into the House of Israel and are gentiles no more. As in John 10 states, Jesus has 2 flocks he must bring and the 2 will become one and that is what we are seeing happening today as christians recognize that their King Messiah was jewish and they search for the roots they lost, to find the connection to the first century jewish christians, to the Apostles to undo the damage wrought by Rome.

      Even now Jesus is working to redeem Israel, in the M.E. right now are events locking into place prophecied of long ago where he will give them the miracle they will require to believe in him.

    170. william lowery
      August 1st, 2012 @ 12:16 am

      Mike, you have to resort to character attacks, to avoid the issue here! You take scriptures exhorting the saints to press on ……..and right here is where we differ……….you say press on in order to assure their salvation (as IF they ever could)……..I say and the word backs me up, the saints press on, because they love the Lord for GIVING THEM THE FREE GIFT OF SALVATION (which they can NEVER lose) and they press on to lay up treasures in heaven, to determine there position in heaven, ..and to authenticate there witness before men, thought they are quick to point out “we preach Christ and NOT ourselves” for we are ALL but earthen vessels, with heavenly treasure within! By the keeping of the law NO FLESH shall be saved! You are mixing! I am sure that I am not the only one dealing with you on this issue!

    171. william lowery
      August 1st, 2012 @ 12:21 am

      Here is what the covenant is all about. It is God’s love message to his people, saying, “I love you so much, I will never let the devil have you. I won’t let him take over your life, even when you fail me. It is impossible for you ever to stray too far from my love. There is no place in heaven or earth where you can escape it.”

      The secret of the Lord is a life-freeing revelation of his loving kindness to us at the point of our failures. It is the Holy Spirit enduing us with a powerful revelation that nothing can separate us from the covenant love of God. He is not mad at you — so get your eyes off your sin, and gladly receive the free access you still have to the father, through the cross of Christ.
      This secret is that your savior wants you to rejoice and be glad — because your past, present and future sins have been taken away. Be glad — then you will be privy to his secret. David Wilkerson Mike….you are not reading my posts!!!!

    172. Dr Michael L Brown
      August 1st, 2012 @ 1:15 am

      Bill,

      1) I am reading your posts directed to me.

      2) I am not attacking your character. I am asking honest questions. In contrast, you continually accuse me of things that are totally untrue.

      3) You still don’t understand my points, as in #169, where you write, “you say press on in order to assure their salvation.” That’s not what I wrote in these posts at all. It is simply that every time I quote verses on holiness — not for salvation but for obedience and out of love for Jesus — you deny them, avoid them, or twist them, rather than saying, “Amen” — and that makes me wonder if something is wrong in your own life.

      4) You continue to quote David Wilkerson even though is New Covenant Unveiled message is what I’m sharing here. Why do you quote the book and yet deny so much of what it says?

      5) You can claim that I’m “mixing,” but I’ll say it once more: You misunderstand my position (willfully or not, God knows) and you misunderstand the Word. Your issue is with the NT Scriptures, not with me, and I honestly feel it’s a waste of time to continually rehash these issues when you demonstrate no desire at all either to interact with the verses I’m quoting or even to understand my views.

      6) Yes, in fact, you are the only one accusing me of mixing law with grace (with the exception of a colleague or two of yours), and you show an amazingly profound ability to misunderstand and misrepresent me. How many of my messages on grace and holiness have you listened to?

      7) In light of what I’ve written here, until you demonstrate that you actually understand what I believe and then actually interact with the verses I’ve quoted in recent posts, I feel it’s a waste of time to continue to post here. So until that time comes on your end where you demonstrate that you understand my position and then interact with the verses I’ve quoted, others here can respond to you but I don’t plan to. I do pray that you will discover the real meaning of God’s amazing grace!

    173. Mark Phillips
      August 1st, 2012 @ 5:30 am

      Was Messiah Jesus into salvation by works ?

      Note John 14:15-24 – here we find Him intertwining authentic love for Him with keeping His commands ; note 1 John 2:3-6 – here we have John intertwining authentically KNOWING Jesus with keeping His commands ; note Matthew 28:20 – Messiah Jesus says the original disciples were to make more disciples and tell them to obey everything He commanded ; note Ephesians 2:10 – where Paul,after saying disciples are saved by grace,says they have been created in Messiah Jesus ‘for good works’ (NASB).

      So was Messiah Jesus,Paul and John teaching salvation BY keeping His commands,or BY doing good works ? No !

      Having been saved BY grace,disciples are called to keep His commands,and do the works there were created in Messiah Jesus to do – not in an effort to EARN salvation,but as a manifestation of authentic love for,and relationship with,Messiah Jesus.

      Is is so serious to see any scriptural call to holiness portrayed as salvation by works. This has been going on for hundreds of years ; Anabaptists were called ‘work saints’.

      Note this quote from Leonard Verduin’s TREMENDOUS book ‘The Reformers And Their Stepchildren,’

      ‘To Schwenkfeld…Luther acknowledged that “among us there is no betterment of life.” ‘ (Chapter 3)

      Leonard spends an entire chapter discussing conductual-averagism. It is no surprise that the Anabaptists were called ‘work saints’ or that Luther saw no betterment of life in those coerced into the ‘pews’- for they were fed a one-tense,in-the-bag salvation that totally undermines Messiah’s lifestyle commands (and the call to DENY oneself and FOLLOW Him).

      If anyone is yet to get a copy of Leonard’s tremendous book on the ‘Magisterial Reformation’,do get one.

      It is not salvation in sin,but salvation from sin ; it is not salvation by works,but salvation for works.

      http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/157978934X/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      Alice went down a rabbit hole and ended up in Wonderland – alas,many Evangelicals have been swept through the gates of a wineskin and ended up in OSAS-Land/POTS-Land.

      Oh for a massive Evangelical wineskin-exodus.

    174. Dr Michael L Brown
      August 1st, 2012 @ 8:49 am

      Mark, thanks for the comments! I just ordered the book, which, I’m sad to say, I had not read before.

    175. Mark Phillips
      August 1st, 2012 @ 9:06 am

      Michael,thankyou for making my day – thankyou again.

      It is very meaty,and needs I think to be read thru quickly the first time in order to break up the soil ; then again at a more normal pace to reap the harvest.

      (It is vital to understand Leonard’s word ‘sacralist’ – which is basically someone who thinks everyone in a sociaty has to have the same beliefs if chaos is to be avoided.)

      Please do let me and your listeners know how you get on with the book – perhaps on this thread. If an Evangelical had to mimit themselves to handful of book purchases outside the Bible,Leonard’s book is a must.

      I’ll close here with a quote from Kim Tan,from his excellent primer – a quote relevant to what you will read in Leoanrd’s book :

      ‘It has been said that history is the propoganda of the victor : whoever wins writes history from their point of view. Much of the writings of the dissenters were confiscated and burned so that their testimony could be distorted and misrepresented by their persecutors.

      http://www.amazon.com/Lost-Heritage-Pb-Kim-Tau/dp/1897913249/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      (Kim Tan is quite a guy : Bible-wise,taught by David Pawson ; a biochemist ; a speaker of Mandarin,Spanish and English. How’s that for an education !)

    176. william lowery
      August 2nd, 2012 @ 5:25 pm

      He (Pawson) does not honour the efficacy of the shed Blood of Christ for sinners, he teaches that if the Christians do not “overcome” they will have their names removed from the Book of Life. Space does not permit a full Bible study on this, but the Scriptures clearly teach we are saved by Grace through faith, not by works and “overcoming.” This twisting of Scripture is exactly what the Jehovah’s Witnesses wrongfully teach, and they are not born-again! Read just some of the glorious promises to those who trust in Christ Jesus alone for salvation, and not in works of any kind: II Peter 1:10; John 14:16; II Timothy 1:9; I John 5:18; John 3:15; John 10:28; Ephesians 1:4; 1:11; 2:8,9; Romans 6:23 etc. The clearer one is on the issue of grace alone for salvation….the higher quality of christian live one will live……The more we love someone the more we will do, give, sacrifice, please! Few continue to consistently obey or follow those who thru fear and threat attempt to lead! Israel and the Law being the prime example…hence the reason and purpose of the New Covenant! I see little difference in your teachings than the Old covenant revisited! Bottom line for you all is ” Sin=Judgment=hell……call what ever you like it IS salvation by human merit!

    177. David Roberts
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 3:17 am

      @Dr. Brown, could you please bring Rev. David Pawson onto your show to talk about his book “Once saved, always saved?” Here’s a 4 minute video with him talking about it:

      http://davidpawson.org/video-player/?resource=1191

      David Pawson believes the moment where you can’t lose your salvation is when you get your glorified immortal body at the resurrection, until then, you’re on the way…

    178. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 4:16 am

      David Roberts,I really want Michael and David (and Frank Viola !) to step into co-harness ; Michael and David have major ground in common ; they enhance each others teaching ; and furthermore,I beleive Pawson to be one of the finest teachers God has ever given the Body.

      David Pawson is now 82,so the sooner Michael extends the right hand of fellowship the better – I really hope he does. (Michael,if you read this post,I am guessing you have a mutual friend in Mike Bickle. If so,please call Mike and ask him why he considers David to be one of the world’s finest expositors -he’s not the only one who feels that way! Then,do give David a call youself).

      Some people collect rare artefacts – I collect rare Bible teachers ! There may be thousands of Bible teacher websites online,but I come here becase Michael is into excellence ; Michael is not misled by Cessationism,Calvinism,or Pre-Trib rapture – neither is Pawson – and they both love Israel. It would be fantastic to see Michael and David working together as brothers in Messiah.

      David Roberts,good to see you are aware of David’s new website. Do tell others in your local and internet social network about it. If you have not heard this talk about OSAS and POTS,do listen online,or download on MP3 :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/357?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fsearch%2F%3Fsearch_terms%3Dinheritance%26x%3D37%26y%3D20

    179. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 4:34 am

      Two nuggets of information about David Pawson ; and one OSAS video.

      1) From Chapter 1 of his autobiography :’My father liked to claim direct descent from John Pawson,one of John Wesley’s earliest and best-known colleagues…’(Since John Pawson,the fathers have been either farmers and/or preachers)

      2)In the final years of Corrie Ten Boom’s life,she used to like listening to David’s teaching tapes.

      This is a talk about OSAS given at IHOP in May 2011 :

      http://www.ihopkc.org/resources/2011/05/17/once-saved-always-saved/

    180. David Roberts
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 6:59 am

      @Mark Phillips,

      There are three modern Christian teachers that I consider indispensable for Believers. Rev. David Pawson, Dr. Michael Brown and Walid Shoebat.

      The only area I disagree with them is with regard to Tora observance, in all other respects, I am in complete agreement.

      If I had to list why, I’d say:

      Pawson for his strong stand on personal holiness (divorce and remarriage), the righteousness and sovereignty of God, the process of being saved, Christian Zionism, post tribulation rapture, and the threat of Islam – how he pulls no punches.

      Brown for his answering Jewish objections series, strong stand on personal holiness, Christian Zionism, how the Church is being infiltrated by Gay activism, and for many other topics. I also appreciate his grasp of Semitic languages.

      Walid for his eschatology which follows the Biblical text so closely, especially the Hebrew prophets. I firmly believe that Egypt, Tunisia, Turkey, and other Muslim nations totalling ten will hand over their sovereignty to the Mahdi who will revive the Ummah, the Caliphate, making a treaty with Israel for seven years.

      One of my favourite things Walid said, which I’ll have to paraphrase, cause I can’t remember it word for word is: We see that Christ is very angry when he comes back, and why? Because

      “they have divided up my land” (Joel 3:2)

      So when they divided up God’s land to create a Palestinian state Christ is angry, yet the Antichrist divides the land for gain. (Daniel 11:39)

      So we see that the spirit of Christ is against the division of the land, while the spirit of the AntiChrist is for the division of the land.

      This means Christians who are for a two state solution want the same thing as the AntiChrist! While Christians who are for an undivided land of Israel in Jewish hands are for the same thing as Christ.

    181. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 7:15 am

      David,
      thankyou for taking the time to write that – you seem a bit of a collector yourself ! Your reasoning runs quite close to mine on David and Michael ; I shall take a look at Walid Shoebat.

      I could go on,but we better now get back to the theme of the thread : OSAS.

      (If you have not heard those OSAS talks I put in the last post,do have a listen ; in years gone past that material had to be purchased,but now David has made it available for free on http://www.davidpawson.org )

    182. David Roberts
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 7:23 am

      @Mark Phillips,

      Once I invited a new Believer who had a past with certain sins to hear Walid Shoebat, Chuck Missler was hosting the event and spoke also. I had no idea Chuck was going to speak on how it is impossible to lose your salvation. After she heard that sermon, she went right back to those sins that had bound her for so long, why? Why not? She’s going to heaven anyway.

      I felt guilty and responcible for taking her to hear Chuck after that, but again, I had no idea Chuck was going to preach that. But it just goes to show you the fruit of once saved always saved.

      My other exposure to OSAS was at a Christian music festival where I meet a guy who said his personal mission was to deflower as many young virgin Christian girls as possible. I was a young teenager when I met this person, I was applauded and disgusted, and I said don’t you fear God, don’t you know you’ll go to hell for that? He said, no I won’t. I went to Church once and said the sinners prayer, my salvation is assured.

    183. David Roberts
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 7:34 am
    184. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 7:41 am

      David,
      just so you know,I an an unregenerate Gentile ; but as I said in my first post on this thread,in reading the Bible for myself back in the eighties,I unknowingly vaccinated myself against OSAS.Unfortunatetly,I think many disciples have OSAS or POTS planted into their heads FIRST,and therafter read it into the Bible.

      I differ with Michael L Brown in his view that POTS is not a license to sin ; I feel POTS is OSAS in scholarly dress ; POTS in “Cap ‘n’ Gown.” Holy Scripture is about AGAPE and TRUTH ; the ‘Magisterial Reformers’ used COERCION/VIOLENCE to establish DISTORTED teaching : POTS (enough said !).

      I was really pleased to see Michael is getting Leonard Verduin’s book – it reveals the violence of the POTS-fathers ; there is also a chapter on the failure of the ‘Reformers’ to truly transform those coerced into the ‘pews.’(See post 173 and 174 on here. Do get yourself a copy of the book if you have not got one,it is a classic.)

      What you have just said is a good illustration of the damage done by OSAS and POTS. I personally consider POTS and OSAS to be about the most pernicious deceptions in the Body. In a way,they fulfil Scripture (2 Timothy 4:3-4),so it is no surprise – but it is a disgrace nonetheless.

      Thank you for sharing that,I wonder if anyone else has similar experiences they could post on here ???

    185. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 7:41 am

      Thankyou David,just seen your other post.

    186. David Roberts
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 8:01 am

      @Mark Phillips,

      “just so you know,I an an unregenerate Gentile”

      My best friend used to be walking the path, then gave up saying it was too hard and that he couldn’t do it anymore. He said, he knew the truth, he just didn’t want to live it. At the time, I appreciated that he was honest enough to admit it… but over time, the more he walked away from God, the more of the truth he lost, until he lost all the truth he once had and became completely lost. So I’d warn you about that. I won’t presume to know where you’re at, I don’t know you, but one thing is for sure, if we resist the will of God consistently enough, there will be no glorified body for us, but a certain condemnation. So if you’re walking in willful unrepentance, please repent soon, because there is a principle about a cut off point for grace.

      “For you know that afterward, when he wanted to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no place for repentance, though he sought it diligently with tears.” Hebrews 12:17

      “He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.” Revelation 22:11

      Once I was lukewarm with the Lord and I had a dream about the second coming, I felt the change in my spirit, and I was terrified. I wanted to know if I was in or not, if my sins (even though they weren’t really big ones, they were still sin according to the Bible, would keep me out of the kingdom. My heart was beating so fast when I woke up. It was a wake up call from God to me. There will be A LOT of people trying to get into the ark, but it will be too late by then. So please get into the Ark of Christ while there’s still time and abide and remain in it!

    187. Mark Phillips
      August 3rd, 2012 @ 8:34 am

      Thankyou David for bothering to hone in there. I said that just to be upfront.

      I’ve not said this on Michael’s site before,but I’ll just lob these two cents in on this occasion :

      I may not be the only unregenerate Gentile posting on here,just the only one who knows it!

      Sometimes people phone in to Michael’s show and say “I’m a Christian” or “I’m saved” when that may not actually be the case ; they may simply have been led through a sinner’s prayer – perhaps even in their armchair in front of a televangelist.

      (As David says,’The typical sinner’s prayer is seriously inadequate – from prologue to ‘The Normal Christian Birth.’David’s magnum opus !)

      If Michael and David ever do get together,the number one thing that needs to be hammered out is scriptural EVANGELISM and SALVATION. The Western Contingent of the Body is permeated with SNOOB evangelism (!) : S – sentimental (instead of scriptural) ; N – non-apostolic (instead of apostolic) ; O – one-inch (instead of 36 inch – see Messiah’s yardstick,Luke 14:25-35) ; one-tense (instead of three-tense salvation – past,present,future) ; B – binitarian (instead of trinitarian – paople today are lead in a prayer to God the Father,in which they are told to receive Jesus the Son ; whereas the apostles spoke of repentance toward God the Father,all-eggs-into-the-basket faith INTO Jesus the Son,and a pentecostal,conscious reception of God the Holy Spirit : truly trinitarian evangelism).

      The them of this thread is salvation,so I hope that is not deemed as going off-topic.

      Do watch the OSAS talks David.

    188. Mark Phillips
      August 6th, 2012 @ 5:26 am

      With due respect to sincere and dedicated Cessationist and Pentecostal disciples alike,in order to rectify the impotence and ineffectiveness of much of the Western contingent of the Body,I personally believe it is important to move AWAY from the ‘At what point is a person SAVED?’ fixation,and instead,to RETURN to truly apostolic,trinitarian evangelism.

      David Pawson has written two books about this ; books that would at first be quite DISTURBING to both Cessationists and Pentecostals. Disturbing to Cessationists,because they would have to repent of the disempowering idea that manifestations and gifts have ceased ; disturbing to Pentecostals,because they would have to adjust their doctrine of ‘Subsequence’. Though a Cessationist may indeed be dedicated and sincere,the Pentecostal idea of subsequence stems not from Holy Scripture,but from having adopting the mistaken Cessationist notion that receiving the Holy Spirit is AUTOMATIC and UNCONSCIOUS at the point of intellectual conversion (having adopted it,Pentecostals then have no choice but to view baptism in the Holy Spirit as a seperate,and thus SUBSEQUENT event.)

      The two books by David are as follows :

      The Normal Christian Birth

      http://www.amazon.com/The-Normal-Christian-Birth-Believers/dp/0340489723/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      (Just as ‘Our Hands Are Stained With Blood’ is indeed one of the first books Michael wrote,and indeed perhaps the most important he may ever write,likewise,TNCB is the one of the first and perhaps the most important of David’s books too.)

      Here is a brief video advert for the book,lasting under 8 mins :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1205

      Consider this key quote :

      “Many ‘Christians’,including myself,were badly delivered….The typical sinner’s prayer is seriously inadequate…” (‘PROLOGUE : A WORD TO THE MIDWIVES’)

      Here is a FREE six part video presentation based on the book :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/series/the-normal-christian-birth

      The second book : Jesus Baptises In One Holy Spirit

      http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Baptises-Holy-Spirit-ebook/dp/B00514II68/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

      (This is available in both ebook and paperback – so download a free sample if you can ; the prologue contains his testimony,which may therefore be included in the free sample.)

      Here is a brief video advert for the book,lasting 5 mins :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/1201

      Consider this key quote :

      “I [David Pawson,prior to 1964] had neither a conscious relationship with the Holy Spirit nor any direct experience of his power…most of my hearers were in the same boat.” (Prologue)

      Here is a free audio talk (listen online,or download on MP3) based on the book :

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/720?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Fbehaviour%2Fspiritual-gifts%2F

      Here is another talk on receiving and being baptised in the Holy Spirit (in this one,David discusses his testimony,and also discusses the views of John Stott.)

      http://davidpawson.org/resources/resource/43?return_url=http%3A%2F%2Fdavidpawson.org%2Fresources%2Fcategory%2Fbehaviour%2Fspiritual-gifts%2F

      In Chapter 12 of Michael book ‘The End Of The American Gospel Enterprise,’Michael said this :

      ‘Let me be painfully honest. If there is an area where we have insulted and belittled the power of God it is in the area of baptism in the Holy Spirit.’

      To finish by way of repetition,in order to rectify the impotence and ineffectiveness of much of the Western contingent of the Body,I personally believe it is important to move AWAY from the ‘At what point is a person SAVED?’ fixation,and instead,to RETURN to truly apostolic,trinitarian evangelism.

      May as many radio listeners as possible (Michael too),get those two books ; and hear the free videos and/or audios. (Tp Michael and all – consider downloading them on MP3,then listen to them in the car whilst CAREFULLY driving !)

    189. David Roberts
      August 6th, 2012 @ 5:47 pm

      @Mark Phillips,

      You realise that by your own admission being “an unregenrate Gentile,” yet promoting Pawson, reflects badly on Pawson, because the logic of most people would be, 1) if Pawson was so great, you would have repented, and 2) a sinner would want nothing to do with a truly righteous message.

      If you don’t want people to write Pawson off, I suggest you either repent then promote, or stop promoting him. It does reflect very badly on him when you do that.

    190. Mark Phillips
      August 7th, 2012 @ 4:22 am

      Yes indeed David Roberts,what David Pawson needs is truly regenerate folk bringing attention to his quality teaching – on both sides of the Atlantic.

      The thing is,I know what I know,and do use the internet to share that with others. Pawson once said something like this ‘What an incredible gift the audio cassette was to the Body’ (figuratively speaking,they are fearless soldiers a few inches high,who will travel wherever they are sent and boldly deliver their message word for word – we could do with some believers like that !).

      As marvelous as the audio cassette is,the internet is even more incredible ; Pawson’s array of teaching is now available on http://www.davidpawson.org,whereas in times past,you had to buy it,or physically share the audio/video tape with someone.).

      I could challenge you myself,just as you have challenged me (and fair play to you for saying what you feel in your last post) ; for instance,you called David ‘Reverend’ in post 177,actually David has dropped the title ; furthermore,there is no such thing as a ‘Reverend’ in holy Scripture ; and no pastors either – I won’t go into that here though,for salvation is the theme here,not man-made clergy ; that is why I want Michael,Pawson,and Frank Viola to get into co-harness ; Frank brings the scriptural expertise on zero-clergy.).

      Remember,it would be easy to hide behind a false name,and not be upfront about one’s standing before God ; and there may be others here who are unregenerate,but who,not having heard better teaching from the likes of Pawson,have been led to believe they are regenerate. Some (perhaps many) of Michael’s listeners may be in that shortchanged,ill-equipped position.

      So David Roberts,yes,challenge me and others,and be challenged yourself.

      Have you read ‘The Normal Christian Birth’ and ‘Jesus Baptises In One Holy Spirit’ by Pawson ?

      Have you had your own personal,conscious reception of the Holy Spirit in a manner consistent with Acts 2:4/8:18/10:44-47/19:6 ?

      I hope your answer is a resounding yes to BOTH questions. And,I sure hope Michael gets both books himself sometime soon ; and then,extends the right hand of fellowship to Pawson.

    191. william lowery
      August 7th, 2012 @ 11:31 am

      YOU gentlemen are so far off base….do your self a favor and pick up the book “Once in Christ, Forever in Christ” By William McDonald. Any mixture of law and grace is a “perverted Gospel” and will come under judgment!

    192. Dr Michael L Brown
      August 8th, 2012 @ 12:06 am

      Bill, your false accusations are serious and ugly, and I urge you not to come here and accuse fellow believers of holding to a “perverted gospel.” I pray that God will grant your repentance and a true revelation of His incredible grace.

      I did state previously that I would not be interacting with you for many reasons, but I’m simply urging to tone down your rhetoric or to find another place to post.

    193. Zac
      August 12th, 2012 @ 8:41 pm

      Question…

      If once saved always saved, then it would have to be once loss always loss; can’t have one extreme and not the other…think about it!

    194. mike
      August 13th, 2012 @ 6:51 pm

      . I was listening to this recording here it is a little bit edyfying.a couple things dr michael brown you keep saying if we deny him he will deny us. didnt peter deny jesus . i heard someone say that jesus said only he who does the will of my father will my enter heaven. jesus also says the will of the father is to believe on him who has sent. I just dont understand how someone could believe they dont sin contunially by coveting and lusting after woman and things. sin is in the heart if someone is so serious about holiness why dont they cut there eyes out so they wont look at a woman. that was jesus point the pharisees made laws to keep from sinning so jesus followed suit to bring people to the end of themselves. everyone asked paul so shall we sin that grace may abound. if people are not asking you that question you are not preaching the same thing paul was . grace is the power to do gods will. by the way nobody has any pride in there heart in this forum has the pride of your heart decieved you.

    195. mike
      August 13th, 2012 @ 7:10 pm

      Im with you mr lowerly stay true to the lord and dont worry about man.

    196. mike
      August 14th, 2012 @ 11:45 am

      Also I was wondering was anybody who was sealed with the holy spirit in the new testament ever lost. I mean is there a scripture that says the holy spirit unsealed somebody who was born again just 1 scripture would be good 1o would be better. To clarify noone was sealed or baptized into the body o christ until the new covanant began on pentecost after jesus death. because a testament is not in effect until the death of the testator. this he spake of the spirit that those who believe in him would recieve(for the spirit had not been given yet because jesus was not yet glorified. the holy spirit is what guarantees eternal life so I would need evidence that the holy spirit left a born again believer. May the grace of the lord jesus christ be with your spirit man.

    197. Mark Phillips
      September 19th, 2012 @ 9:15 am

      John Piper is a Calvinst.

      Michael and all,watch this youtube video featuring John Piper ; lasts just over 6 mins.

      Thought this thread may be the one to put it on,given I belive OSAS and POTS to be first cousins.

      Try it on for size :

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSSLLpVChng

    198. Jake Bennett
      November 2nd, 2012 @ 3:13 pm

      Ty for responding to my comment on OSAS in October Mr Brown. One more question though. But what do you think of a Calvinist who calls “denying yourself and follow me” a work? I feel that this is dangerous to even begin to conceive of it or even think it.

    199. Dan1el
      November 15th, 2012 @ 4:56 am

      Joshua 18:3
      “So Joshua said to the people of Israel,
      ‘How long will you put off going in to take possession of the land, which the LORD, the God of your fathers, has given you?’”

      1 Tim 6:12
      “Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called and about which you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.”

      GIFT-GIVER:GOD || GIFT-”POSSESSORS”:COVENANT-PEOPLE

      “FIGHT”
      The Israelites were charged (by God) to fight (with God’s help) to enter the “Promise”: that generation of Israelites who refused to fight never entered the Promise.
      Today, the “promise” is “eternal life” (which — according to John 17:3 — is “knowing God and the One He sent”); those who refuse to “fight the fight of faith” are “unbelieving” and “hardened through the deceitfulness of sin”, and run the risk of having God say to them (in His wrath), “they shall never enter My rest” (“and there will be ‘no rest’ for them day or night”, as they are tormented in the lake of fire).
      God’s wrath upon the Israelites was irrespective of the fact that they were “saved from Egypt” (the type and shadow of those who would be saved out from “the house of bondage” to sin — and from the king of that kingdom who thought he was god, as satan thinks he is god — by Christ) and “baptized into Moses” (the shadow of those who would be baptized into Jesus) [1 Cor 10].

      “TAKE HOLD OF THE ETERNAL LIFE”
      Sure, “eternal life” is a “Gift”; but so was the Land of Israel — yet, even the Land of Israel had to be “possessed”. In the same way, the Promise must be POSSESSED/LAIN HOLD OF today.

      “TO WHICH YOU WERE CALLED”
      One’s “calling” is not presumed to be one’s “laying hold of eternal life”; there must be something added to our having been “called”: Paul says Timothy is to add “laying hold” of eternal life (by fighting the good fight of faith) to his being “called”. Being called to eternal life isn’t enough — eternal life must be lain hold of; this does not diminish its being a “Gift” but is merely another dimension/aspect of the same contract.

    200. Mark Phillips
      November 15th, 2012 @ 6:33 am

      Noting post number 174,Michael got himself Leonard’s classic ; sure would be nice if he’d come on here and report how he got on with the book( hint hint !).

      A distance of 500 years has facilitated a rose-tinted view of ‘The Reformation’ ; Leonard’s book is a highly informative account of the violence used to establish Augustinianism by the leaders of that movement. Is Messiah Jesus likely to build His Body by the very means for which His Father brought the flood ?! (Genesis 6:11-14 ; not to mention Zechariah 4:6 and Matthew 12:33-37.) A book of tremendous importance.

      Follow Michael;s lead one and all :

      http://www.amazon.com/Reformers-Their-Stepchildren-Dissent-Nonconformity/dp/1579789358/ref=cm_cr-mr-img

    201. Dan1el
      November 15th, 2012 @ 11:41 am

      “The Jews worship on a Saturday to celebrate the finish of the old creation; we worship on a sunday to celebrate the beginning of a new creation.” -David Pawson

      I’ve heard more than enough with that; this is “Sunday brunch Christianity” at its finest.

    202. Jake
      December 20th, 2012 @ 2:51 pm

      Mr Brown, is it possible to use Skype to call the Line of Fire, If not, would such an outlet be a good consideration for someone lives outside America?

    203. Dan1el
      December 20th, 2012 @ 5:02 pm

      Jake,
      Google Phone can be used in gmail to call other phones.

    204. Dan1el
      December 20th, 2012 @ 5:08 pm

      Jake,
      and skype cannot be used to call other phones (only other skypes) unless you pay for that feature.

      Re: The Once-Saved-Always-Saved Debate
      The bride’s wedding garment is “the righteous deeds of the saints” [Rv 19:7, 8].

      Paul warns believers can be found naked at the time they’re to be clothed [2 Cor 5:4].

      Those guests not wearing wedding garments will be ejected [Mt 22:11-13].

      This garment is Christ [Ro 13:14]: apart from Him I can do no good thing [John 15:5].

      Christ is “in us” [Col 1:27] and He is the clothing of good works;

      Seeds also have something “inside” them but a harvest is sought from them.

      As seeds, we are to die [John 12:24] to “work out” [Pp 2:12] the inner potential/hope.

      Thus, we are to live as sacrifices [Ro 12:1], dying to self by the Spirit [Ro 8:13].

      Some do not [Ro 8:13].

      If we die, then Christ manifests, working His works — so, we have Him inside and outside.

      The Word sanctifies [John 15:3; 17:17], ending fruitlessness [John 15:2].

      Disciples “in Him” who don’t abide in Him are unfruitful [John 15:5, 6; 2 P 1:8]:

      “Unfruitfulness” is in terms of “bringing others to know Jesus as you’ve known” [2 P 1:8].

      Those who don’t abide in the Word depart from the Word [John 6:66]; are unfruitful.

      To attain the resurrection of life, I must be a doer of good [John 5:29; Pp 3:11; Ro 2:7].

      To do good I, a branch in Christ [John 15:2] must also “abide in Christ” [John 15:5].

      Some disciples do not abide [John 15:6] thus, they cannot do good works [John 15:5].

      These “in (where the eternal life is [John 1:4]) Christ” are cut off [John 15:6].

      Paul suffers loss of all to remain/be found in Christ and work righteousness [Pp 3:1-9]

      Keeping in mind that the bride’s wedding linens are the righteous deeds of saints [Rv 19:7,8]:

      We are warned to stay prayerful and keep our garments lest we be found naked [Rv 19:8].

      The Laodiceans had “no garments” [Rv 3:17] — “no works”.

      The Laodiceans were “rich” [Rv 3:17].

      The deceitfulness of riches can choke the Word sown, rendering it/us fruitless [Mt 13:22].

      Again, fruitlessness is because of not abiding in Christ, the Word [John 15:5, 6]

      If riches “deceive”, they “mislead”; but, we’re to remain in the “Truth” and “Way” [John 14:6].

      Truth-believers are “sanctified” [John 17:17]; Truth-disobeyers will be destroyed [2 Th 1:8].

      Being deceived [by riches] means you are disobeying the Truth [John 3:36].

      Believing a lie means you are not abiding in the Word of Truth or Christ [John 15:2].

      Not abiding in Christ means you cannot bear fruit [John 15:5].

      Not bearing fruit means you will eventually be cut off [John 15:6].

      Fruitless and cut off branches are eventually cast into the fire [John 15:6].

      The fruitless disciple is cut off and cast out, eventually to be thrown into the fire [John 15:6]

      Again, the fruitless servant/disciple is thrown into outer darkness [Mt 25:24-30].

      The field drinking rain, yet unfruitful, is nearly cursed, whose end is to be burned [Hb 6:8]

      =================================

      Questions:
      1. How is it that the Laodiceans had no garments?
      2. What does it mean to you that the Laodiceans had no garments?
      3. Could the Laodiceans’ riches have been choking the Word in them to fruitlessness?
      4. Is it a possibility the Laodiceans could be found without garments at Christ’s return?
      5. If they were found without garments at Christ’s return, what would happen to them?
      6. If branches are in Christ (where eternal life is), but could be thrown in the fire:
      i. is grace irresistible?
      ii. is election unconditional?
      iii. do the true saints undoubtedly persevere?

    205. Dave
      December 20th, 2012 @ 11:50 pm

      Dan1el,

      Is the “fire” Jesus speaking of hell here?

      The bible is quite clear that it is not clear on the issue! The seeming contradictions serve more as reminder to remain in relationship than give us contractual guidelines. “Inheriting eternal life” is not simply going to heaven, it’s inheriting all that heaven has, here and now. “The kingdom of God is at hand”.

      If the Lord wanted to make this issue clear he would have. I believe both calvinism and armineanism have caused much damage to the church. As the earlier part of John 15 says, “abide in me and you will bear much fruit”.

    206. Dave
      December 20th, 2012 @ 11:51 pm

      I meant to say “Is the fire Jesus speaking of here in this text hell”?

    207. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 21st, 2012 @ 12:25 am

      Dave, I believe God has made Himself very clear on this issue. Just because there’s debate about it doesn’t mean God didn’t speak clearly.

      Also, I don’t follow this comment at all: “I believe both calvinism and armineanism have caused much damage to the church. As the earlier part of John 15 says, ‘abide in me and you will bear much fruit’.” Aren’t there both Calvinists and Arminians who have born much fruit? And do you feel you have the true revelation about these issues but all Calvinists and Arminians are wrong? Just trying to understand what you are saying!

    208. Dan1el
      December 21st, 2012 @ 1:14 am

      Dave,
      1. Every time “fruitlessness” is mentioned, SIN (and sin’s consequences — damnation) are mentioned:

      HB 6
      Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that produces thorns and thistles is WORTHLESS and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

      MT 25
      24He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed, 25so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.’
      26But his master answered him, ‘You WICKED and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sown and gather where I scattered no seed? 27Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28So take the talent from him and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29For to everyone who has will more be given, and he will have an abundance. But from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30And cast the WORTHLESS servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

      EP 5:11
      Take no part in the UNFRUITFUL works of darkness (sin)…

      Name one time God blesses “unfruitfulness” — rather, it is always close to “sin” (wicked [Mt 25]) and damnation. “God will take the kingdom from you and give it to a nation BEARING its fruits.”

      2. What is the fire — Love? No. It is “flaming fire” of God’s “vengeance” [2 Th 1:8].

      3. Please, answer the questions I attached to the post — i.e.: how could the Laodiceans be “naked” (righteous deeds being the clothes), if grace were “irresistible”. It would seem if grace truly were “irresistible” and “grace abounding = works abounding [2 Cor 9:8] (= spiritual clothing [Rv 19:8] “abounding”) they wouldn’t have been apart from Christ and incapable of any good work — apart from Him we can do nothing [John 15:5] — but they were. What would happen to them if they didn’t have the garment of righteous deeds at the return of Christ?

    209. Dan1el
      December 21st, 2012 @ 1:27 am

      Dave,
      Well, obviously the fire must be some wonderful tickling feeling — it’s not as if every major world religion associates fire with their version of “hell” or anything.
      Yes, it must be some wonderful sensation.
      Yes, I can’t wait to go to Disneyland, where I can ride the new ride “Flaming Fire of Vengeance” where you can experience the wonderful experience of being burned with fire.

      What? What’s that you say — that ride’s been cancelled? Major fundamental engineering flaw? OK.
      Guess I won’t be going, after all.

      But, on the other hand, as far as this wonderful fire the Bible talks about, where unfruitful (disobedient) servants go it truly is a wonderful mystery that no one could possibly comprehend!

      Did you detect a hint of sarcasm? I sure didn’t.

    210. Dave
      December 21st, 2012 @ 5:15 am

      Dr . Brown

      I should have written more clearly. What I meant was referring to what I perceive as the extremes of both views causing damage. For example, for Arminianism, a continual fear of losing ones salvation resulting in an overly self focused insecure life rather than a confident God focused life. For Calvinism, the sense of hopelessness at God’s predetermined election.

      Concerning my comment about bearing fruit I didn’t at all mean Calvinism and Arminianism didn’t bear fruit but was meaning to say that if our focus is applied to abiding in Him I believe we would bear much more fruit than we would by just aligning with one side or another in this theological debate. I am not saying these discussions and debates are useless. But what I am saying is that I’ve found, at least for myself, that by abiding in Him through yieldedness, intimacy, prayer and meditating on His word I bear what seems exponentially more fruit than understanding and agreeing with doctrines of our eternal security or lack thereof. Is it not true that if believers, regardless of their belief in eternal security or not, were truly abiding in Him that this debate would in all reality as it applies to us be a non issue(mainly concerning the ability to lose salvation)? I just don’t necessarily believe that the answer is found as much in this debate as it is in the reality of fully yielding ourselves to Him. Concerning the issue being not clear cut in scripture I was more specifically referring to the “at what point does someone lose their salvation.” I do believe that if someone is fully intentioned on refusing The Lord that this can happen although I also believe it is God’s heart to prevent them from doing so and will go to great lengths to prevent them from entering into what I see as one of the most tragic deceptions possible.

      My heart in writing what I did was in a spirit of the hope and joy we can have by bearing his fruit by abiding, not in a tone of criticism or contempt. I will try and post more clearly in the future!

      On a personal note, my brother in law who was only 26, died of a drug overdose last year and one of the main torturesome things in his life was the doctrine of calvinism that taught God just picks who he wants to save and that is that, there’s nothing that can be done about it. He had a very hard time reconciling God as love but just choosing whoever he feels like saving…he was an evangelist. So yes, I have some strong feelings about this issue and how it potentially produces an open door for the enemy to sow fear and deception. Nonetheless, I see our main source of life and hope in the person and nature of Jesus Christ who himself is the truth and who alone can help us to rightly divide the word. Some out of both camps, Arminianism and Calvinism, would say he is in hell, but for different reasons. But neither knows the definite truth of the matter as neither knows the person and heart of the man, which God alone does. That is what I mean by “not clear cut”. I apologize for being so candid and am not interested in discussing his specifics further but these are the real life issues that are at stake!

    211. Dave
      December 21st, 2012 @ 5:37 am

      Dan1el,

      Is all the sarcasm necessary? It is quite the turn off when trying to discuss these issues. No one said anything about his fire being a “sensation”. Where did that come from? I approach the word sincerely and with humility as best I know how wanting to know the truth regardless of my inherent leanings.

      So yes, I ask questions. Jesus also said he wished the fire he brings was already kindled. Does this mean he wanted to incinerate the earth with hellfire as quickly as he possibly could? Is his baptism in the Holy Spirit and fire hell? Just because Thessalonians refers to hell does this make all fire references hell? And surely you don’t mean to imply that just because “all major religions” equate fire with hell somehow this gives validity to your claim! So yes, we know there is more than one meaning of fire as used by God. And yes maybe you are right. But if you are not right your whole foundation to your point is flawed…which is why I sincerely asked what your thoughts were on what fire was Jesus referring to?

    212. Dan1el
      December 27th, 2012 @ 2:17 am

      Dave,
      I didn’t think I was being “sharp”/offensive, per se, so forgive me if you were offended; if you were being sincere, the answer is quite clear (as Dr. Brown has pointed out): the same fire that melts the wax hardens the clay; the same anointing that ends the lives of Ananias, Sapphira & Herod also brings others from the dead back to life. The sword is double-edged.

      Blessings & Peace

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