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  • Thoughts on Preterism; Jesus, the Law, and the Kingdom of God

    November 22, 2011 | 16 Comments

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    What do you think about Preterism’s views on the events of the past, the present, and the future?   What relationship did Jesus have to the Law, and what place does it still have in the Kingdom of God?  Dr. Brown looks at some of these questions today on the Line of Fire!

    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Jesus is coming back.  Jesus will return and destroy the wicked, establish the righteous, set everything right and we will be with Him forever!  How then should we live today?

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Let God take you deeper, higher, and bring you to places you could never go.  Let God help you to live a life that is impossible to live in the natural; with God all things are possible as we live in grace!

    Other Resources:

    Dr. Brown Discusses Preterism with Dr. Gary DeMar

    Joel Richardson Interview; and Sorting Out End-Time Theologies

    Believers and the Law of Moses

    Joel’s Trumpet

    Why I Look Forward to the End article by Joel Richardson

    Israel and the “Peace Process” article by Joel Richardson

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    Our Hands Are Stained With Blood by Dr. Brown: this shocking and painful book tells the tragic story of the “Church” and the Jewish people. It is a story every Christian must hear.

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    Jewish Roots Class with Dr. Brown: This 10 lecture class will open your eyes to God’s eternal purposes for Israel; give you a deeper burden for the salvation of the Jewish people; open up the Jewish background to the NT and show the prophetic importance of the biblical calendar.

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    How To Pray For Israel And The Middle East article by Dr. Brown

    Israel and the End-Time Revival with Dr. Brown: listen for free online!

    Stand With Israel lecture with Dr. Brown: listen for free online!

    Stand With Israel [mp3 CD]

    Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus vol. 4 by Dr. Brown: In this volume of the Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus series, Dr. Brown counters the arguments that the New Testament mistranslates, misuses, and misunderstands the Hebrew Scriptures, also addressing the objections that Jesus or Paul abolished the Law.

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    Comments

    16 Responses to “Thoughts on Preterism; Jesus, the Law, and the Kingdom of God”

    1. Anthony Buzzard
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 10:42 am

      The question is this: Where in Scripture is there a mention of a resurrection before the tribulation period? Consider these facts:

      1) The Resurrection in Daniel 12:2 (“Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake….”) occurs just after the great tribulation described in Daniel 12:1, a verse earlier. This is a post-trib. resurrection.

      2) The gathering of the elect at the sound of the trumpet in Matthew 24:31 happens soon after the great tribulation (see Matt. 24:29, “immediately after the tribulation of those days…”). This is a post-trib. resurrection.

      3) The resurrection promised to the faithful in John 6:39, 40, 44, 54 occurs at the last day — presumably the last day of this age, not seven years earlier. This is post-trib.

      4) The resurrection of 1 Corinthians 15:23 involves all the Christians and happens “at the coming of Jesus.” Verses 51 and 52 describe this as a mystery which will occur in the twinkling of an eye at the last trumpet.

      5) The resurrection of Revelation 11:15-18 (“the time came for the dead to be judged”) happens at the seventh (i.e., last of a sequence of seven) trumpet and this is after the time of the Great Tribulation, as both camps agree. This, too, is a post-trib. resurrection.

      6) The resurrection of the dead found in Revelation 20:4 occurs after the arrival of Jesus to destroy the Beast and False Prophet (Rev. 19:20, 21). This, also, is a post-trib. resurrection, as all agree.

      7) The resurrection described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 occurs at the day of the Lord (1 Thess. 5:2) when sudden destruction comes upon the unsuspecting world (1 Thess. 5:3). This, too, must therefore be a post-trib. resurrection.

      8) The gathering of the church to the Lord at the coming of Jesus promised in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 will not occur until after the Man of Sin is revealed (“The day of the Lord will not come until the apostasy comes first and the man of sin is revealed,” v. 3). This, therefore, is a post-trib. resurrection.

      Where then is the pre-trib. resurrection in which so many place their hope? There appears to be no such event. If the resurrection of the faithful does not occur after the tribulation in Matthew 24:31 (gathering of the elect) where in Matthew 24 does it occur? If the resurrection of the Christians does not occur at the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11:15, where in Revelation is it mentioned?

      Overlooking the primary evidence above, which establishes the place of the resurrection in the order of events, the pre-trib. argument may attempt a counter-position as follows:

      (a) Maintain in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, where the only gathering of the saints mentioned is POST-trib., that there is no mention of the resurrection and gathering of the church. This would mean that in the whole of Jesus’ discussion of the end-time and the Second Coming he omits entirely to say anything about when Christians will be resurrected and gathered! Though he speaks to disciples who are the foundation of the church, PRE-trib. maintains that nothing is said of the resurrection or gathering of the church.

      Note: The “elect” whom Jesus instructs are the faithful church as Matthew 22:14 shows (chosen = “elect,” same Greek word).

      (b) Maintain that the resurrection and gathering described in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 [(7) above] happens before the Tribulation.

      Note: This can only be attempted by overlooking the context of the passage. Firstly, 4:13-17, taken without reference to the following context, does not say when this event occurs. But the following verses (5:1-4) do tell us that the event in question will take the world by surprise. This means that it is a post-trib. event, as are all the other descriptions of the resurrection.

      (c) Maintain that Revelation 4:1-2, where John was invited to “come up here,” describes the resurrection and gathering of millions of dead and living Christians. This goes far beyond the evidence. Not a word is said about a rapture or resurrection in this passage.

      Final note: 1 Corinthians 15:52 tells us that the resurrection of the faithful will occur at the last trumpet. Revelation 11:15-18 says that when the last (the seventh) trumpet sounds the “time for the dead to be judged and rewarded has come.” This trumpet sounds after the Tribulation, as all agree. Can it seriously be held that the last trumpet and the seventh trumpet are not the same event? If they are the same they provide absolute proof of the post-trib. resurrection for all the faithful. If 11:15 is not the resurrection of the church where in the whole of the book of Revelation is there a pre-tribulation resurrection? Where in the whole Bible is there evidence of a resurrection occurring before the tribulation?

      We should be careful not to place our hopes in an event which the Bible does not promise.

    2. Dan1el
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 11:21 am

      Yep; right on — it almost feels like people that believe in the “rapture” have never read their Bibles.

    3. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 11:40 am

      Sir Anthony, for once, we agree!

    4. Sheila
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 12:58 pm

      It’s that “U-turn” thingy that they inserted to explain it.

    5. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 1:21 pm

      BTW, I’m not planning to get into a discussion about pre-trib or post-trib today, nor am I talking broadly about the Torah and the believer, so those wanting to continue that discussion (although I believe it’s been beaten into the ground by now) should do so at other relevant threads rather than starting yet another discussion about it here. Just a heads up!

    6. Matt
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 1:26 pm

      The crazy thing about this theology is that they take the Book of Revelation as a spritual book and believe it doesn’t describe what will actually happen. To somehow that God is created the heaven and earth but couldn’t do what is laid out in Revelation is lunacy.

    7. Debbie Fraser
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 2:05 pm

      Ok Daniel. sure. lol

    8. Dan1el
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 2:28 pm

      Sorry if that was offensive; I shouldn’t have said that.

    9. Ken
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 2:31 pm

      Well said Anthony.. The truth is as plan as the pages of the bible…

    10. Debbie Fraser
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 2:32 pm

      Daniel-
      I love and respect your honesty. No worries.

    11. Trezeguet
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 3:51 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Does the passage below apply to today’s topic? This is a hard word from Yeshua. This is a word of life, is it not? Reaching out to others that cannot repay us… Is this a commandment or a suggestion?

      Its easy to fall into cliques or into vicious circles of hanging out and partaking of idle things, as a result of continuously inviting people that we know will pay us back in some way and hardly considering reaching out to strangers.

      Dr. Brown, I apologize if this is off topic. It came to mind when you mentioned that we can know the word of God but not submit to it. I know I don’t follow these particular words of Yeshua, but I know I should. This passage was in my daily reading today.

      Luke 14:
      12He said also to the man who had invited him, “When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your relatives or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return and you be repaid. 13But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, the blind, 14and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. For you will be repaid at the resurrection of the just.

      Amiably,

      Trezeguet

    12. Anthony Buzzard
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 4:30 pm

      Dr Brown

      Dr. Brown, I am delighted to know of your classical Premill understanding,
      Thanks for reading,
      Anthony

    13. Bo
      November 22nd, 2011 @ 5:03 pm

      I’m one of the best at resurrecting dead horses so that they can be beaten all over again, but remember that the topic is usually brought up by others…even the host of this site. So I offer the following for thoughtful introspection on all our parts as to whether our horses are alive, dead, or hypothetical…and to encourage us toward honest evaluation of the true condition of each others precious ponies.

      An All Too Typical Horse Race

      Beating dead horses wouldn’t cause as much pain,
      If those in their saddles weren’t quite so insane.
      With whips brandished high and spurs dug in deep;
      Their eyes on the goal: the top of the heap. (Of dead horses that is)

      But before we all boast of our obvious sanity,
      We might want to check in the mirror for vanity.
      Taking the “high road” with noses held high,
      We might see the crazies are passing us by.

      Perched on their mounts now flat on the ground,
      How is it we seem to be losing this round?
      As we’re riding high, holding tight to our lanyards,
      Why does it seem that we’re going backwards?

      The cause of our horses, so shiny and slick,
      Losing this race to those dead as a brick,
      Is known to all when we hear a voice say,
      “Your carousel motor turns the wrong way.”

      So when we come to the end of the ride,
      And find that our own horse has plastic hide,
      We can learn from our carousel pace
      Real horses, only, finish the race.

      And since we through a glass darkly see,
      We might humbly ask of our neighbor the key,
      To mounting his horse and getting the feel
      Of handling a stallion, we thought no big deal.

      And then if we find that his steed gives us scare,
      We might want to buy of his stock for our mare,
      A stud that brings life to our dwindling herd,
      Now seeing his mount is not really absurd.

      It just might be true that a horse that seemed dead
      Was only asleep…just resting its head.
      And now that we’ve caught up to his resting place
      We might find we need him to finish the race.

      For our trusty mount that has brought us so far
      Could need retiring, be not up to par
      For trav’ling the distance on narrower trials
      That seemed to go nowhere but now are unveiled.

      Horses are beaten, it’s true, every day
      The live ones, the dead ones, and even the play.
      If now we are running the true race to win,
      A seemingly dead horse might trot once again.

      Shalom

    14. Dee Dee Warren
      April 12th, 2012 @ 7:04 pm

      Dr. Brown, this was awful, especially considering you already talked with Dr. DeMar… most of your argument was against hyperpreterism, which is heretical by nearly any scale, and then you did some sleights of hand in which you applied it to orthodox preterism. You didn’t do your listeners any favors.

    15. Dr Michael L Brown
      April 12th, 2012 @ 10:30 pm

      Dee Dee,

      Thanks for your comments, but actually, many listeners were helped by the show, for which I’m grateful, and I responded to the most common preterist arguments that I encounter. Perhaps the problem is in the position itself? As for sleight of hand, not a chance. You need to be more careful before bringing an ungodly accusation like that.

    16. Dan1el
      April 12th, 2012 @ 11:07 pm

      Dr. Brown,
      Will the future temple be “left desolate”; if so, isn’t that presuming that the presence is IN it, in the first place?

      Perhaps the physical temple is symbolic of what is happening in the “spiritual temples”, who are “falling away” [John 6:66]?

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