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  • “Ultimate Reconciliation,” Heaven, Hell, and Rob Bell: A Biblical Analysis.

    March 21, 2011 | 102 Comments

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    Hour 1:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: There is one God, and there is one way to know God:  through Jesus.  There are two paths; one leads to life, and the other to destruction.  Let us do all that we can to model, demonstrate, and proclaim the way of life, and lift up Jesus who Himself is the life.  Let us call others to repent of sin and selfishness, and to remind them that there are consequences for rejecting life, namely, eternal death.  The word is very clear on that.

    Hour 2:

    Dr. Brown’s Bottom Line: Do you know the Lord?  Are you walking with God?  Are you in Fellowship with Him?  Are you in right relationship with Him?  Do you know your sins are forgiven, that you’ve come to know God not just as taskmaster or judge, but Father?  Have you come to receive eternal life through Jesus and what He has done for you, bringing you into relationship both with Him and the Father?  If so, live this out to the full, and tell the good news to everyone.  Use whatever opportunities the Lord sets before you, recognizing that what people do with Jesus in this world will have consequences for the rest of their lives, and consequences in the world to come.  There are consequences now, there are consequences forever; let us make known the mercies of God to everyone, so we can know and be with Him forever.

    Lengthy Review of Love Wins

    Interview with Rob Bell about Universalism and Love Wins

    Visit Rob Bell’s Website

    How Saved Are We? by Dr. Brown

    Think it Thru:  In Search of Atonement (DVD)

    Or watch for free online

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    Comments

    102 Responses to ““Ultimate Reconciliation,” Heaven, Hell, and Rob Bell: A Biblical Analysis.”

    1. Eric
      March 21st, 2011 @ 1:55 pm

      I used to watch Rob Bell DVD’s at a youth group I attended. Very dangerous and sad direction he’s turned to.

      Galations 1:8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

      Sorry Rob Bell! We will all keep you in prayers!

    2. Eric
      March 21st, 2011 @ 3:06 pm

      Objection;

      Malachi 3:14-15 (NKJV)
      14 You have said, ‘It is useless to serve God; What profit is it that we have kept His ordinance, And that we have walked as mourners Before the Lord of hosts?
      15 So now we call the proud blessed, For those who do wickedness are raised up; They even tempt God and go free.’

      Answer;

      Malachi 3:17-18 (NKJV)
      17 “They shall be Mine,” says the Lord of hosts, “On the day that I make them My jewels. And I will spare them As a man spares his own son who serves him.”
      18 Then you shall again discern Between the righteous and the wicked, Between one who serves God And one who does not serve Him.

      Malachi 4:1-3 (NKJV)
      1 “For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up,” Says the Lord of hosts, “That will leave them neither root nor branch.
      2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
      3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this,” Says the Lord of hosts.

      This is so clear, you don’t need any commentary on this, I wonder how Rob Bell or people with similar views reconcile these passages. (And the abundant amount of passages Dr. Brown presented in the course of the 2 hours of radio)

    3. Holly
      March 21st, 2011 @ 8:58 pm

      Excellent show, Dr Brown. I love how you discussed this issue. Thank-you so much for your teaching.

    4. Pamela
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 12:41 am

      Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. Revelation 22:14

    5. Anthea
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 4:00 am

      Hello Dr Brown
      I have just heard about this new book, and have seen the interview with Martin Bashir. What concerned me over the years was how few Christians were willing to check Rob Bell or “try the spirits” as in John’s epistle. It seems as if everyone felt that because his church was bringing in youngish crowds, he must be OK. Either that, or everyone was hypnotised by the reflection from his designer spectacles!

      I downloaded this show last night, but it was only 2 mins. So I am about to try again.

    6. Sheila
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 9:06 am

      Isn’t there a standard for a school being accredited as a “Seminary”? Where do people like Bell learn these things? I just don’t get it! “They” say, “If you torture the Scriptures long enough, you can make them say whatever you want them to.”

      So, this is what Paul meant by those “departing from the faith” and “preaching damnable heresies.” And the poor souls that he is leading into destruction–that’s the worst part!

      This show was a real eye-opener.

    7. Mark Phillips
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 9:28 am

      Hello,i am just an outsider who reads Holy Scripture,but,i would like to say the following :
      Have most evangelicals in Britain and America noted that the warnings of Jesus about Gehenna/The Lake of Fire are not aimed at outsiders – they are aimed at His disciples/insiders ? – alas, i think they have not.
      Consider for instance,Matthews 10:28.
      Before sending out disciples on a fishing mission,He does not say – ‘tell those outsiders to fear hell’
      No,Jesus tells His evangelists to fear hell,not outsiders who can only kill them in anger at the message they bring.
      (How many modern evangelistic organisations pass this solemn warning on to missionaries today ? ! )
      This fact cannot be accepted by those who have been lead into OSAS.
      Get your concordance out,and check it out.
      Ask one question as you do so – Who is Jesus warning’ ?.
      Jesus issued no idle warning in Eden – Genesis 2:16-17
      Jesus issued no idle warning at Arabah – Deuteronomy 28 : 15,47-50
      Jesus issued no idle warning at Patmos – Revelation 3 : 4 and Rev 22: 18-19 (warning to His bondservants,not outsiders).
      May the ‘OSAS/Decree wineskin-veil’ be removed from as many evangelical minds in Britain and America as possible.
      Jesus is the God of Israel – He is not the God of idle warnings.

    8. Ruth
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 11:02 am

      I would not want to be misunderstood; I’m not leveling an accusation against Rob Bell; God alone is his judge. Only wanted to share that the apostles have pointed out that teachers are especially held to responsibility, if they are departing from truth…see also James 3:1.

      2 Peter 2:1…10

      “But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies,even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute…Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. ….For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment; if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the depraved conduct of the lawless for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment. This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the flesh and despise authority.”

      And Paul reminds that we should consider the fates of those who came before us and fell away through disbelief:

      Romans 11:21-22

      “For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

      …We should consider, then that God is both kind and stern, and this is necessary in order for Him to express both His justice and His mercy…

    9. Andy Ferrier
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 12:56 pm

      Great teaching Dr. Brown. It seems to me that if we as believers in Jesus are going to error, we should error on the side of caution.

      If we tell people there is no hell and it turns out there is, (as the Bible says there is,) what are we to say to those people we failed on judgment day, “oops, sorry, my bad?”

      But if we tell people there is a hell and it turns out we were wrong then no harm done. Bottom line, we have to stick with the clear teaching of Scripture that hell is eternal and very real and Jesus is the only way to heaven.

    10. Debbie Fraser
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 1:20 pm

      hmmmm

    11. Anthea
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 4:02 pm

      Dr Brown, in the broadacast you mentioned that Rob Bell did not want to be in heaven just singing and praising God all the time, as it would be hellish. Was this a quotation from the ‘Love Wins’ book? Could you provide the original wording for me, please?

      I would like this for future reference, as when I heard it, it reminded me of something else.

    12. Jesse
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 5:31 pm

      http://www.prodigalsonly.com

      Worth checking out if you find yourself in this position, like I have.

    13. Jesse
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 6:07 pm

      28:16 Haha! Dr. Brown cracks me up sometimes.

      “Well…WHAT IS HE DOING HERE!?”

      “HOW’D HE GET IT IN!?!? I”M LEAVING!!”

      I love his humor!

    14. Ruth
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 10:12 pm

      https://www.robbell.com/lovewins/

      I don’t know how many checking out Rob Bell’s minimalist website actually caught that there is a video, to which I’ve linked above.

      This video caused quite a stir on a primarily-Christian forum I visit some weeks back; it was as if a chasm opened up under our feet, and this normally “hail-fellow-well-met” group suddenly found ourselves on one side (traditional, Scriptural) or another (agnostic, nontraditional, eclectic).

      what grabs me at the outset is how ungrounded in the text Bell seems to be. The question, “Is it who you know?” (on how you get to “heaven”) seems especially naive. In Matthew 7:22-23, it’s written, “Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” So, yes, it matters Who you know and Who knows you! I just can’t help but wonder how can “Pastor Rob Bell” be a pastor who has read the Bible with questions like his, since so many of those he poses on the video have already been very clearly answered in the written word.

      I don’t mean this caustically, but it’s probably only the milk-imbibing babes who might find his theology compelling…and therein lies the danger…

    15. Ruth
      March 22nd, 2011 @ 10:21 pm

      Just want to add: Excellent, thoughtful, in-depth analysis by the fair-minded Dr. Brown.

      Kevin DeYoung’s review in Gospel Coalition, linked at the top, and also here:
      http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2011/03/14/rob-bell-love-wins-review/

      was also excellent.

      Thanks to LOF for always being on the cutting edge.

    16. S. Johnson
      March 24th, 2011 @ 4:58 pm

      Just a few words on hell. I recently had the privilege of taking a course on the problem of evil. There was a wonderful section on hell and the misconceptions that people have created about it. It is a place of torment, but not a place where torment is externally inflicted. The torment is internal and comes from the choice that was made. Much of the language used about hell appears to be metaphorical; a description of a horrible place in the most visceral terms. There is gnashing of teeth but no one is gnashing the teeth of those in hell, they are gnashing their own teeth. It is a place where the “hound of heaven” stops barking and allows those who chose to be there to be left alone.

      The point was made that while people do not WANT to be in hell they CHOSE to be there. There is a difference between what we want and what we choose. I may want to play the violin but I did not choose to put in the hours of practice to achieve this. As C.S. Lewis said the doors of hell are locked from the inside….those in hell are unwilling to will the condition of their release.
      God so respects our free will that He will not force anyone to love Him, for forced love is a contradiction. If a few hours of worship in church is painful to some, how much more so would eternal worship be? For those that reject Him, He created a place where they can live apart from Him for eternity.

    17. Mark
      March 24th, 2011 @ 9:08 pm

      I encourage everyone to read Andrew Jukes THE RESTITUTION OF ALL THINGS. It is a mid 19th Century study of the original biblical texts we have available and the literal translations of those texts. Eternal/Eternity was a loose translation of the Aramaic and Hebrew words meaning “for an age.” So let me ask a hypothetical…. forgetting the eternal hell we were taught as children, if “for an age” is the literal translation, could salvation for all be possible? Hypothetically? I think we as believers find it hard to accept ideas other than what we first are taught. This is why Luther and even Jesus Christ was not accepted – they went against the Catholic way and the Hebrew way. Be open to God and his mysteries…He alone (NOT Brown OR Bell) is omniscient. God Bless.

    18. S.Johnson
      March 25th, 2011 @ 12:21 pm

      Mark;

      I have no personal knowledge of the book you refer to. Was Jukes a ancient semtic language scholar? I’m guessing that those who are would have also stumbled upon this great truth about the meaning of eternal. In fact this would be good news as it would eliminate one of the great stumbling blocks of Christianity. We all get to go to heaven! Of course this leads to other problems as well. What was the point of Jesus dying if there really was nothing to save us from in the first place? Why did Jesus have so much to say about hell?

      I leave you with another quote by C.S. Lewis who also wanted everyone to get to have eternal salvation.

      “I would pay any price to say truthfully, all will be saved. But my reason retorts without there will or with it. If I say without their will; I at once perceive a contradiction; how can the supreme act of self surrender be involuntary. If I say with their will, my reason replies, how if they will not give in?”

      Some people are just not willing to will the conditions for not going to hell.

      Even the French existentialist/atheist Jean Paul sartre recognized this. He wrote a play called “No Exit” about 3 people in hell. At the end of the play the doors of hell open up and nobody leaves.

    19. Sheila
      March 25th, 2011 @ 5:44 pm

      Mark,

      I looked into the words, “eternity” and “for ever” and the meaning seems to be clearly that of “eternal”, never ending, etc.

      Gesenius’ Hebrew Lexicon says this:

      1) perpetuity, for ever, continuing future

      a) ancient (of past time)

      b) for ever (of future time)

      1) of continuous existence

      c) for ever (of God’s existence)

      And in the Greek NT, it has this in the Thayer’s Lexicon:

      1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be

      2) without beginning

      3) without end, never to cease, everlasting

      I don’t know, though, how Mr. Bell missed the clear meaning of “for ever”.

    20. Larry
      March 25th, 2011 @ 8:02 pm

      Does the Bible teach that human beings are eternal beings?

      Genesis 3
      22 Then the Lord God said, “Look, the human beings have become like us, knowing both good and evil. What if they reach out, take fruit from the tree of life, and eat it? Then they will live forever!” 23 So the Lord God banished them from the Garden of Eden, and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he had been made. 24 After sending them out, the Lord God stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden. And he placed a flaming sword that flashed back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

    21. Rob Bell – Love Wins : Apologetik.dk
      March 27th, 2011 @ 4:01 pm
    22. Larry W.
      March 29th, 2011 @ 8:23 am

      All one has to do is read Revelation 14:9-11 with a Strong’s Concordance or a good interlinear Bible…the truth is that when it speaks about th esmoke of their torment ascends forever…it means forever…without rest, without an intermission…without a pause.
      Unfortunately, this book will damn many souls to eternity in the Lake of Fire!

    23. DD
      March 29th, 2011 @ 9:20 am

      While I love Dr. Brown and his show, I have to take issue with him on this topic. He says there’s something called “eternal death” and that “The word is very clear on that.” I don’t believe there’s a single scripture that references “eternal death.” Instead, 1Cor 15:24 tells us “The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.” And Rev 21:8 plainly states that the lake of fire “IS the second death.” “Eternal death” is simply nowhere to be found in scripture.
      Also, Dr. Brown fails to touch upon the Greek “aion” and it’s forms. Dr. F.W. Farrar, who was a Greek scholar and Canon of Westminster states on page 378 of his book Mercy and Judgement, “Since ‘aion’ meant ‘age,’ ‘aionios’ means, properly, ‘belonging to an age,’ or ‘age-long,’ and anyone who asserts that it must mean ‘endless’ defends a position which even Augustine practically abandoned twelve centuries ago.” The scriptures tell the story of God’s plan for the AGES, not just “now” and “eternity”.
      Ultimate reconciliation is not some strange or new doctrine but as Peter says in reference to Christ in Acts 3:21, “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

    24. Frances
      March 29th, 2011 @ 9:53 pm

      This is a good example of the reason we have so many denominations. We could debate this and other subjects for days, and some will hold to their belief for a very simple reason. Truth requires 2 things to be seen: 1. You must want it, and 2. God must open your eyes to see it. Quite a few years ago, The Lord opened my eyes to the truth about Hell, but I did not dare speak it to anyone because I knew what their response would be- very similar to what I have read here today. I never heard of Rob Bell before yesterday, so he has had no influence in my life or thinking. I don’t know what he believes about Hell, and personally it makes no difference to me. I know that I know what the Holy Spirit has shown me in His Word. I won’t try to convince anyone, but just remember the Pharisees thought Jesus was a heretic because he did not follow certain aspects of the law (washing hands, etc). The Deciples were upset with Paul because he wanted to include the Gentiles in salvation. We walk in our own revelation. When the Holy Spirit opens your eyes, you see scriptures you have read your whole life in a new light. His Word is Truth, but the Word is law without the Spirit. Therefore, hundreds of denominations. Just a note- “EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.” “No man can say Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit”. Hell is a real place; however, our God is a consuming fire. What does he consume? Flesh, sin, ungodly natures. Men are sent there to be changed. Thus God IS Love, and Jesus does win!!! God plan of the AGES will be a success. He won’t force anyone to love him, they just will because he created us, and he knows what it will take to get us to where we repent. I could use many scriptures to back up my belief on this issue, but I won’t here because like I said when I started- takes 2 things.

    25. Berl
      March 29th, 2011 @ 10:42 pm

      The problem with the two main views in christian thought is both give man freewil to the point where Gods will becomes secondary, in salvation, and so called eternal damnation. Both are fighting against Gods will when you say only some of the ungodly (that included you) will be saved, when many scriptures tell you He will reconcile all His creation, Colossians 1:16-20 as alot of “alls” Not wise to make a full harvest out of first fruits of Gods remnants.
      What you folks are saying is that God didn’t pay for all sin, and that God doesn’t have the power or means to bring about His will, which is that all men come to the knowledge of salvation, but we get knashing teeth and hell fire and brimestone for ever. Death is just to tuff for God to reach down into and save Jonah 2:6. You are just like the brother of the prodigal son, your not concerned with anyone but yourself, instead of agreeing with God that nothing is impossible for Him, and rejoice that He promised to save all sinners not just you IN DUE TIME, you proclaim na send them all to this falsh doctrine of eternal hell, even the one’s who did bring hell into the church diDn’t even believe it themselves! it was a tool of men, and its called tradistion. Pauls certainly forgot to teach about.

      Romans 9-11, proves your wrong, God will save the whole lump folks!! your the one’s who are fighting against God. History shows those who thinK they know God and His ways, know the least about His true nature. Your doctrine has made Him into a monster you seem to agree with, and want front row seats to watch the hell show, carefull what you wish for.

      Grace, Berl.

    26. Larry
      March 30th, 2011 @ 7:38 am

      When Jesus was asked how someone could inherit eternal life, why didn’t He correct the questioner and say, “You are an eternal being. The only question is whether you will spend eternity in heaven or hell.” Why is the term “inherit” applicable here unless there is the possibility that the second death is really a second death, not an eternal life in hell?

    27. christian
      March 30th, 2011 @ 10:01 am

      John 14:6

      Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

      THIS IS THE WHOLE TRUTH!

    28. Bo
      March 30th, 2011 @ 11:21 am

      christian,

      One line slogans may be truisms, but they are not all there is to the truth. John 14:6 is not all there is to truth…or putting it into practice. Coming to the Father through the Son is a very important truth, but there is more to the truth than just coming through the “door of sheepfold.”

      John 15
      1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
      2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
      3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
      4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
      5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
      6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
      7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

      1 John 3
      2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
      3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
      4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous…
      18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
      19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
      20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
      21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
      22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

      We need to abide in Him. In Him is no sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. We have confidence toward YHHW when we keep His commandments. We receive what we ask for because we keep His commandments and do those thing that are pleasing to Him. We need to keep YHWH’s commandments AND go beyond commandment keeping to become profitable servants.

      Luke 17
      5 And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.
      6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.
      7 But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
      8 And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
      9 Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
      10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

      Bearing fruit/being profitable servants is predicated on obeying YHWH’s commandments AND going beyond them. Some branches will be cut off and cast into the fire even though they were once part of the true vine. Commandment keeping comes up large in the end…at least as far as getting to partake of the tree of life. The first man and woman were denied the tree of life for disobedience to YHWH’s commandments. In the end our faith is proven by our faithfulness to keeping YHWH’s commandments.

      Revelation 22
      11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
      12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
      13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Shalom

    29. Bob T
      March 30th, 2011 @ 11:42 am

      Eternal fire-Matt 25:41

      Eternal punishment-Matt 25:46

      Eternal destruction-2 Thess 1:9

      Daniel 12:2-And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake,these to everlasting life,but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

      Warning about eternal hell-Mark 9:42-50 Matt 18:6-10

      Mark 9:44-where the worm does not die,and the fire is not quenched.

    30. christian
      March 30th, 2011 @ 11:57 am

      you banning me too?

    31. Sheila
      March 30th, 2011 @ 12:28 pm

      Thanks, Bob T. And there are many others just like those.

      And if punishment for our sins is not a reality, except that we accept the propitiation of Messiah, then it matters not what kind of life we live because, hey, eventually we’ll be saved anyway! That is so contrary to the entire Bible and the entire New Testament that it amazes me that we are reading the same Book, yet, coming away with a completely different understanding of what the Word says. There is no reason then, to accept Jesus now, “while it is called today”, because “tomorrow” you’ll be saved anyway. Nonsense.

      And I DO NOT delight in the separation of ANYONE from God who will say, “Depart from me, you who work iniquity, into outer darkness “forever”!! I am greatly burdened in the sorrow of my soul for those who are lost.

      And if you truly had a heart for them, you would be burdened too. You, who hold to this “hell is not a separation forever” doctrine, offer them false hope and salvation by “another way” ultimately condemning them.

      What is judgement?

      Salvation from what?

      Salvation by Who?

      Eternity where?

      You have free will to decide for yourself. If the Lord’s will superceeded ours we would be called robots. You are free to love Him or not. To accept Jesus, or not. If you didn’t “choose” to love Him, it wouldn’t really be love, now would it?

      I don’t know if I can spare the time right now, but, I’d love to reason with some of you. This is a serious error with repercussions for those you convince of it.

    32. Larry
      March 30th, 2011 @ 2:21 pm

      The Bible clearly teaches punishment for the wicked. The EFFECT of the second death is eternal, but does the Bible really teach torment is eternal?

    33. Bob T
      March 30th, 2011 @ 3:39 pm

      Yes Larry, the Bible does say punishment will be eternal.Read the Bible verses that I wrote down in my previous post.It says Eternal Fire,Punishment,Destruction,Everlasting Contempt and the Fire is not Quenched, in those verses.

      I do not believe it could be any clearer.

    34. Larry
      March 30th, 2011 @ 4:07 pm

      Bob,

      Thanks for the input, but were not Sodom and Gomorrah subjected to Eternal Fire? Are they still ablaze or were they incinerated?

      Thanks,

      Larry

    35. Dr Michael L Brown
      March 30th, 2011 @ 4:30 pm

      As always, my apologies for not being able to join in the discussion here, but I have seen some of the posts asking for my response, and I might be able to address some of the questions on the program one day. In short, it is absolutely clear to be from Scripture that the consequences of rejecting Jesus as Messiah and Lord are dreadful, eternal, and irreversible. I’m happy to debate exactly how that works out, based on the Word, but those three elements seem to be beyond debate. I would say that those who hold to eternal torment and those who hold to annihilation both affirm these three truths.

    36. Pamela
      March 30th, 2011 @ 5:26 pm

      Larry,

      Sometimes we are limited by the limitations of our imagination, but we must always remember that God’s word is always correct. Yes, the Bible did state that Sodom and Gomorrah were subjected to the eternal burning fire, and yet, the area where they once stood is not ablaze with fire. So let us just simply reason it like this – the eternal burning fire that cannot be quenched that came from God that devoured Sodom and Gomorrah was gathered up again unto God after it finished its work of destruction. Hey, the difficult reasoning problem has been solved!

    37. Larry
      March 30th, 2011 @ 7:56 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Indeed, I can easily agree with your statement that “In short, it is absolutely clear to be from Scripture that the consequences of rejecting Jesus as Messiah and Lord are dreadful, eternal, and irreversible.”

      Pamela,

      Thank you for your response. Your “word picture” seems to be accurate with Scripture, as I believe that sadly, tragically, one day God’s eternal fire will consume the wicked and the consequence will be separation from the Lord that lasts for eternity.

      God bless everyone in your journey with Christ.

      Larry

    38. Bob T
      March 31st, 2011 @ 9:24 am

      Hello Larry,Jude 1:7 -Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them,since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh,are exhibited as an example,in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

      Obviously an area can not indulge in gross immorality but the people in the area can.The Bible says they are “undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.”

      The Bible speaks of the same punishment in Matt 25:41.

      You asked if they are still ablaze? I believe they are, in someway or another.I believe the scriptures are clear that there is eternal punishment and torment.This is just my opinion.

    39. Ruth
      March 31st, 2011 @ 3:41 pm

      Frances, your comment about Jesus not keeping certain aspects of the Law (such as not washing the hands) is part of a fascinating study carried out by Dr. Nehemia Gordon.

      Rather than me trying to give you a thumbnail sketch of it here, here’s a link to his exposition on that. I think you will find it fascinating, as have many believers in Jesus (and I am one).

      http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2662031810327980639#

    40. Larry
      March 31st, 2011 @ 4:32 pm

      Hi Bob,

      Thanks for the Jude reference. I agree that the inhabitants were punished by the eternal fire, I just don’t see how that can be construed to mean they are being subjected to eternal torture. Most everything I know of that enters a blazing hot fire is eventually incinerated.

      God bless,

      Larry

    41. Bob T
      March 31st, 2011 @ 7:23 pm

      Larry

      I understand that we,christians,are not going to agree on everything.That being said I have a question.

      Matt.25:46-And these will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life.

      If you do not believe in eternal punishment as the scripture says than do you not believe in eternal life as the scripture says in the same verse? Also what do you think Mark9:44 means?Mark9:44-”where the worm does not die,And the fire is not queched”.

      Just trying to understand your viewpoint.

    42. Bo
      March 31st, 2011 @ 10:39 pm

      The worm could die not and the fire be not quenched, with the ones participating in them ceasing to exist after the appropriate duration…but that could just be a matter of semantics.

    43. Ruth
      April 1st, 2011 @ 7:19 am

      Since it’s the soul that can go there (hell) — it’s created of different material than the body, which of course, would be consumed immediately. The soul body — I won’t pretend to even understand its composition — but I’m guessing that it’s an energy that must be contained.

    44. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 11:49 am

      Faith in Y’shua and commandment keeping…not one or the other!

      Revelation 14
      9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
      10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
      11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
      12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

      Matthew 19
      16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
      17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
      18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
      19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
      20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
      21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

      Revelation 12
      17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

      1 John 5
      1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
      4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
      5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

      Matthew 7
      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
      23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work lawlessness.

      Matthew 22
      11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
      12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
      13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
      14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

      Revelation 19
      7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
      8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

      1 John 3
      2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
      3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
      4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      John 8
      34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
      35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
      36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

      John 3
      16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
      17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
      18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
      19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
      20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
      21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

      Those without the wedding garment are not allowed to participate in the wedding. It would appear that real faith in Y’shua produces commandment keepers. Unrighteousness is sin. Sin is the transgression of the law. The righteousness of the saints is their wedding garment. Whoever has the hope of seeing Him as He is, purifies himself.

      Why do we call Him Lord, lord and still not do the will of the Father? Why do we think that keeping YHWH’s commandments without faith in the Son will be enough?

      The two world religions, that are based on the Bible, have only grasped one out of the two aspects of gaining eternal life. Many are called but few are chosen. What ever hell really is, and however long it lasts, it would behoove us to miss out on it altogether.

      The mark of the beast in our hands or foreheads may be as simple as this: If we do not have faith in Y’shua, our forehead has the mark. If we do not keep YHWH’s commandments, our hand has the mark. We only need the mark on one of the two places to be excluded from eternal life.

      Shalom

    45. Tom
      April 1st, 2011 @ 12:50 pm

      Wow, Bo has just stated the “Jesus plus” doctrine in all its boldness.

      I hope I’m not the only one to notice the out-and-out fraud of this doctrine of works?

    46. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 1:24 pm

      I wonder if the idea of ultimate reconciliation comes from the subconscious of a world view that is devoid of the principles of Biblical justice. Modern, western society’s conscience is adrift with concepts like fairness, socialism, no fault divorce, and a penal system based upon reform. The Biblical ideas of justice, property rights and low taxation, stoning for adultery, the death penalty, and restitution is difficult for us to wrap our “enlightened” minds around.

      If the physical is a picture of the spiritual, the death penalty must in fact indicate to us the sureness of final judgment…no reconciliation at some point. I like the C.S. Lewis quotations in the posts above.

      If a man will not face the truth and himself honestly, why would he ever agree to face his creator? Hell would be merciful to that man, though he will be kicking himself for being a coward for eternity…weeping and gnashing of teeth. Having lived life mostly, or quite likely only, for the sake of self, I am sure that he would choose to embrace outer darkness rather than the agony of pure light. This too would be merciful to him. His propensity for drawing back into himself will be unto perdition. He will be left alone with his god…self.

      Ask any recovered alcoholic. They have experienced a taste of hell. Hell is self. Gaining life is in losing self. Those that love, make and live lies are not likely to enjoy the blazing light of truth for eternity. Though hell is the worst of options, it is the best option for some. The restitution of all things might just include allowing those that reject love, light and truth to be reconciled to their god too.

      Shalom

    47. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 1:47 pm

      Tom,

      You wrote:
      “I hope I’m not the only one to notice the out-and-out fraud of this doctrine of works?”

      I hope no one else fails to deal with the scriptures I posted. I hope you will not deceive yourself or others into thinking that faith without works can save us.

      The rich young ruler kept the commandments, but rejected the other. He had kept the commandments but refused to put his faith in Messiah. Modern Churchianity falls into the other ditch. There will be many that say, “Lord, lord” that will be told to depart because of disobedience. Saving faith produces obedience.

      The gospel that Paul, John, James, and Peter preached included enduring to the end, faith with works, walking as Y’shua walked and repenting from transgression of the law. If you do not want to honestly deal with the scriptures that I posted above, you are free…just like the rich young ruler. Deceiving ourselves by being hearers of the word only is not the kind of salvation that will allow us to eat from the tree of life.

      James 1
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Romans 2
      13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

      1 John 3
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

      Revelation 22
      11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
      12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
      13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      Shalom

    48. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 3:21 pm

      Tom,

      The devils believe and tremble. Much better to trust and obey, for there is no other way…to be allowed to eat from the tree of life.

      James 2
      19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
      20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

      Shalom

    49. Pamela
      April 1st, 2011 @ 3:26 pm

      Tom,

      It is true that the Bible teaches that faith in Christ alone will grant you eternal life as laid out in 1 John 5:1-12 and this verse…

      These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 1John 5:13

      BUT, there is a but, the Bible also lays out a special reward for those that had faith in Christ as well as worked faithfully doing righteous things during their lifetime as shown in these verses…

      And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord. Matthew 25:20-21

      It was the Holy Spirit that opened my eyes to this least known truth, because the preaches of today just lump it altogether in one package without making a differential between individual, maybe because of their circumstance in their life, who was only willing or able to exhibit faith in Christ alone as compared to someone who had faith and the opportunity to really work in a zealous way accomplishing all kinds of righteous works in their lifetime for the Lord.

      I know that churches do not teach this and that this is probably the first time you have heard of this separate distinction. But the Bible does make this statement…

      And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. Revelation 22:12

      Therefore I adjure all believers in Chirst to follow the advice of this next verse…

      But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
      Matthew 6:20

    50. christian
      April 1st, 2011 @ 3:30 pm

      Ephesians 2:10
      For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

      Ephesians 4:11-13
      So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, 12 to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.

      We are His vessels. He is the potter, we are the clay. The Heavenly Father continually forming us to be made in the image of Christ. Who is LOVE.

      To do good works is to be a bond servant to Christ. To serve others the way Christ served us by giving Himself up for us. He who knew no sin became sin for us.

    51. christian
      April 1st, 2011 @ 3:41 pm

      Have you served anyone today???

    52. Dr Michael L Brown
      April 1st, 2011 @ 4:50 pm

      Please stay on topic!

    53. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 4:59 pm

      christian,

      Did you notice that works that we were created to walk in were specified in advance. We are no longer gentiles, but are now grafted into Israel. There is one set of rules. The ones that were before ordained that us former gentiles should walk in are the same ones that YHHW gave to Israel.

      Ephesians 2
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
      11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
      12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:…
      18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
      19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

      The once foreigners that are now fellowcitizens with the saints (Israelites) have the same set of kingdom rules.

      Matthew 5
      18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      We know for sure that those that do not keep YHWH’s commandments (the lawless, i.e. the ones that pay no attention to Torah) will not get to eat of the tree of life/inherit eternal life. Those that neglect even the smallest commandment will be relegated to being least in the kingdom. Those that keep and teach all of YHWH’s commandments will be great in the kingdom.

      The kingdom of heaven is not about going to heaven. It is about ruling and reigning with Messiah…being a royal priesthood and a holy nation. YHWH’s requirements for holiness (being saints) are found in Torah…the before ordained works that we are to walk in. Without holiness no one will see YHWH.

      Hebrews 12
      14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

      We are not truly loving YHWH or our brother/neighbor if we are not keeping YHHW’s commandments.

      1 John 5
      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      Faith without works is dead. Works without faith is dead. The real New Covenant is supposed to write YHWH’s Torah on our hearts and mind.

      Hebrews 8
      10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
      11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

      The New Covenant is a relationship with YHWH that is so consuming that we desire to keep His commandments. We love His law. We purify ourselves as He is pure. We be holy as He is holy. We become commandment keepers instead of only being hearers of the word. It is having the faith of Y’shua and keeping YHWH’s commandments.

      We are not participating in the New Covenant if we do not have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. They are not grievous to those that have real love for YHWH and His children. And please notice that the New Covenant is to Israel. We must be grafted in to partake. There is only one law for the strangers and the home born.

      Shalom

    54. Bo
      April 1st, 2011 @ 5:49 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      Sorry, you post didn’t show up until after I posted.

      christian and others,

      If you want to continue this topic, I re-posted here:

      http://www.lineoffireradio.com/2010/07/23/dr-brown-answers-your-questions-including-torah-for-today-is-the-church-spiritual-israel-and-what-about-being-slain-in-the-spirit/comment-page-3/#comment-47674

      Shalom

    55. Larry
      April 1st, 2011 @ 6:19 pm

      Hi Bob,

      Thank you for your affirmation of “agreeing to disagree”. I’m thankful for our brotherhood in the Spirit as we seek Jesus together.

      You asked about Matt.25:46-”And these will go away into eternal punishment,but the righteous into eternal life.”

      My belief is that to live eternally is to live with Jesus. In other words, I don’t believe that there is any other “eternal life” spoken of in the Bible. The consistent theme throughout the Old and New testaments is that the wicked will cease to exist, not live eternally. How many times was Jesus asked how to INHERIT or OBTAIN eternal life? How many chances did He miss to warn us that we are eternal beings and that our choice is simply where we are to spend eternity?

      As for the worm not turning – Jesus is referring to Gehenna – the place where any Jew would be horrified to be thrown into. Jesus is emphasizing the permanent consequences of unrepentant sinners. If some garbage or animal failed to land in the fire it would instead be devoured by maggots. Jesus’ point is that whatever was thrown into the valley never came out again; it was totally consumed, either by fire or by worms or maggots.

      May I ask you a question? If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?

      God bless,

      Larry

    56. christian
      April 1st, 2011 @ 6:30 pm

      Larry,
      Please read Luke 16:19-31 The Rich Man and Lazarus.

    57. Sheila
      April 1st, 2011 @ 7:09 pm

      How then, would being dead be any kind of punishment at all? If you’re dead, you’re dead. No torment. No punishment. Just dead. Doesn’t make sense to me.

      On the other hand, having to live in a darkness so thick you could cut it with a knife, because you rejected the light of life and you are forever dying, forever conscious, forever separated from God, now, that would be hell.

      I believe it’s forever because when a Christian dies, it says he goes to be with the Lord. Well, his body is in the grave, so, it must be his spirit (soul) that leaves his body. And when the Lord returns, those who have died will have their bodies resurrected as new. So, it seems we are body and soul (spirit) and we will spend eternity either in the light of the Lord, or, as it says, in outer darkness, where we wish we could just die!

      And, too, in order for the promises to be fulfilled concerning the righteous, they must come in the next life. I say this because we see the wicked prosper and the righteous are persecuted, so, how can those promises be true otherwise? They certainly aren’t true at this present time that I can see!

      So, the “body” of the wicked is turned to ashes, but, their soul (their conscious self) is tormented forever.

      It horrible to even think about!! Go and save some souls!!! “Pull them out of the very fire.”

    58. Sheila
      April 1st, 2011 @ 7:13 pm

      I left out the statements concerning the wicked. Neither have those come true in this present age, so, it must yet be in store for them to receive the things they have done as their reward.

      Otherwise, there are way too many statements that would fail concerning them.

    59. Larry
      April 1st, 2011 @ 9:12 pm

      Hi Christian,

      The story you’re referring to is a parable about the Jewish nation and the Gentiles. If this story is a warning of eternal torment, then wouldn’t Jesus have at least mentioned the righteous deeds of the beggar or the unrighteous deeds of the rich man? Why is there absolutely no reference to the faith or sin of these two characters?

      God bless,

      Larry

    60. Larry
      April 1st, 2011 @ 9:17 pm

      Hi Sheila,

      You said:

      “How then, would being dead be any kind of punishment at all? If you’re dead, you’re dead. No torment. No punishment. Just dead. Doesn’t make sense to me. ”

      You’ve apparently misunderstood my position. The unsaved who have died are indeed very agonizingly awaiting final judgment at the great white throne. Please read Revelation to get a picture of what an awful fate awaits them. Why must eternal torture be the only way that the Lord deals with the wicked? I’m not suggesting that there won’t be a period of torment after being thrown into the lake of fire. I just fail to see scriptural support for eternal torment.

      God bless,

      Larry

    61. Larry
      April 1st, 2011 @ 9:18 pm

      I’m eagerly awaiting anyone to address my question above that may have gotten lost due to the length of my reply, to wit:

      If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?

      God bless,

      Larry

    62. christian
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 5:39 am

      Larry,
      I beg to differ with your interpretation of Luke 16:19-31. It was a true story. Whenever Jesus gave parables He would not give specific names. In Luke 16:19-31 Jesus specifically gives names Abraham, Lazarus. Jesus is warning people that there is a Hell. It is real. It is a WARNING story.

      In the beginning when God created man He breathed life into man. When the Lord has given man a spirit, that spirit never, ever dies. It lives forever and ever. Eternity. Our physical bodies will perish but our spirit will live forever. It will live in either Heaven or Hell. For to say there is no Hell is saying that Jesus died on the cross was all in vain. Jesus died to prevent us from going from to Hell.

      As for your question.
      King David wrote this.

      Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

      Blessing upon you Larry.

    63. Sheila
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 7:27 am

      The book of Job, scholars agree as the oldest, says the wicked are brought forth from their graves to suffer the wrath of God. Job 21:30 “That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath.”

      In the Revelation, again, they are “reserved” for that day. We do know that Jesus spoke truth in every word he uttered. Even in the parables, he is relating Kingdom Truths. (i.e. Lazarus and the rich man)

      Therefore, separation from God is eternal and that is punishment enough, to be separated from light and love for eternity. Otherwise, where is the truth in the Word concerning the wicked? When are they repaid for their deeds? Hitler? Stalin?

    64. Eric
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 8:14 am

      Dear Larry,

      I would like to address this issue of life and death to you and how they are defined. I believe this will clear up some of your issues based on the way you worded some of your posts. Please pray before you read this, to God, that if there is any truth in this post, let it come out. In Jesus’ name. Amen. Thank you.

      Throughout the Bible deadness, death, life, etc also take on symbolic terms. For example Paul spoke to the church in Ephesus about being “dead” in their sins and now they are “alive” through Jesus. Were they really “dead” or is this talking about separation from God?

      “There are many kinds of life: vegetable life, animal life, mental life, moral life, and spiritual life. A being might be alive in one sense but dead in another. To be spiritually dead does not mean that we are physically dead, socially dead, or psychologically dead. Yet it is a real death, a dead death nonetheless.” (Guzik)

      “The most vital part of man’s personality – the spirit – is dead to the most important factor in life – God.” (Wood)

      “Not in a moral sense, nor a mental sense, but in a spiritual sense, poor humanity is dead, and so the word of God again and again most positively describes it.” (Spurgeon)

      In Psalm 139, David speaks about it being impossible for himself to be separated from God while on earth. The lowest pit or the highest valley. Paul somewhat echos this in the latter part of Romans 8 explaining how we can never be separated from the love which God has for us, for all mankind.

      On the flip side, there is a punishment mentioned in 2nd Thessalonians chapter 1 verses 7B-9, “…When the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power..” (As rendered in the New American Standard Bible)

      As you can see here they do not know God, they are spiritually dead. They do not obey and they reject the gospel of our Lord Jesus. The punishment for this is what? The punishment is that they will remain the spiritual deadness state of not knowing God, not being alive in a spiritual sense. They will be eternally cut off from His presence, glory and power.

      If Paul really thought they – the unbeliever will cease to exist, that would’ve been the perfect time to say it! In an ultimate description of what the punishment of the unbeliever is.

      To quote John 17:3, “This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”

      I must ask you, how do you come to the conclusion that eternal life (which is defined by Jesus) is anything less than knowing God? Spending eternity in hell, a state that which you are separated from God is in no way eternal life. Even if you are conscious.

      Take Care,

      Eric

    65. Sheila
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 8:28 am

      Larry (and others),

      I used to struggle with reconciling what seemed to be two different analogies concerning what happens to the wicked as opposed to those declared righteous. In some verses it seems the wicked are just cut off–that’s it for them. They turn to ashes beneath our feet. But, when we move into the NT it seems the Lord taught us of what was truly their fate. And, too, the Lord conquered death. Therefore the fate of all is eternity “somewhere”. You’re soul doesn’t “stay” dead. Even in the OT it seems the dead are discussed as being “conscious” of where they find themselves. Ezekiel speaks of the dead in hell stirring themselves up to great the newcomers. Daniel says as much when he relates to us that, Dan 12:2 “And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to “everlasting” life, and some to shame and “everlasting” contempt.”
      Dan 12:3 “And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.” You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say “everlasting” only means everlasting when speaking of life. It has to mean the exact same thing for both life and contempt.

      This is what the Hebrew Lexicon says about it:

      Lexicon Results
      Strong’s H5769 – `owlam
      b) (of future)
      1) for ever, always
      2) continuous existence, perpetual
      3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

      My thinking was stretched when I was considering what someone said to me about all mankind being made in the “image of God.” And so, I had to consider what is meant by that. How can we say that Hitler, or aethiests , or, terrorists and those who absolutely hate God are made in God’s image? And the NT says of Cain, that “he was of his father, the devil.” So, did he start out in God’s image and then something went terribly wrong? Was it just that he gave in to the “sin that was crouching at his door” and that “desired to have him”? I had to stretch myself in that, I believe being made in God’s image (God is Spirit) would mean that we are both body and “spirit” and for that reason we are eternal beings and we “choose” to spend eternity in one of two places. When God formed us from the dust of the ground (and science says the human body shares the same elements as dirt!) we were not animated until He breathed in to us the breath of life. So, until He gave us a “spirit” we were clay in the hands of the Potter. Anyone have any ideas on what it means to be “made in the image of God”? I could use some help with that for another forum discussion.

      Another fact from science is that matter cannot dissipate-it only changes form. And that makes sense to me when we think of the human being as “matter”. We don’t cease to exist, we just change form.

    66. Larry
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:03 am

      Hi Christian,

      Thanks for your perspective. It’s extraordinary to me that the parable in question has zero mention of sinfulness or righteousness and yet is used to rationalize eternal torment, but thank you for taking the time to address it.

      God bless,

      Larry

    67. christian
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:05 am

      Numbers 26:10…
      “And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up together with Korah, when that company died, what time the fire devoured two hundred and fifty men: and they became a sign.”

      Korah and the men who rebelled with him against Moses were swallowed into Hell beneath.

      Psalm 9:17…
      “The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.”

      Isaiah 5:14…

      “Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.”

      It wouldn’t make any sense if “hell” merely meant the grave. What point would there be in condemning the wicked to hell if that’s the same place where the righteous go? Clearly, Hell is a place only for the wicked who die in their sins. The righteous go to heaven to be with the Lord (2nd Corinthians 5:8).

      Matthew 5:28,29…

      “But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.”

      The Bible plainly teaches that all sinners are condemned to Hell. If “hell” simply means grave, then what harm or worry is there in fornicating, getting drunk, raping, murdering, partying with illegal drugs and committing all sorts of other sins? There would be none. If there is NO place of punishment in eternity, then there is NO justice for all the victims of crimes committed in this earthly life. So then what advantage is there to being righteous? If one believes that the Bible is God’s Word, then you absolutely must believe that Hell is a literal place of torment and anguish, that burns with searing flames of fire and brimstone, where sinners are punished for their sins against a holy God.

    68. Larry
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:07 am

      Hi Sheila,

      I’ve tried to address your doubt about God’s punishment of the wicked. I’m quite certain that it will be fitting to the crimes committed. I’m just not sure why the only fitting punishment is eternal torture. How about 1000 years of burning before you die – unable to get relief? I can’t say with confidence what it’s like to be thrown into eternal fire, but it will NOT be enviable.

      Thanks for your input, and God bless!

      Larry

    69. Larry
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:13 am

      Hi Eric (and all others),

      Thanks for your response. Everyone’s participation is awesome and I appreciate the dedication to seek Truth.

      Clearly the outcome of God’s wrath is eternal separation from Him. I still fail to see how come that translates to eternal torture, especially with the consistent failure of Scripture to address the concept of eternal torture unless one or two mis-interpretations are applied to the concept.

      At any rate, whether the torment it temporal, eternal, or something else, I’m thankful for the shed blood of Jesus which covers my sins, and I know everyone here is, also. On that we can agree, praise God!!

      God bless,

      Larry

    70. Sheila
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:22 am

      I thinking eternal separation and being conscious of it, would be torture enough. I don’t necessarily think they are tormented forever and ever. Just being without the Light of Life seems to me to be their fate.

      Still horrifying to contemplate! Unimaginable darkness forever-makes me ill to think of it!

    71. Sheila
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 10:24 am

      Anyone have any thoughts on what it means to be made in the image of God?

    72. Eric
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 11:28 am

      Larry,

      Amen to that, praise Jesus!

    73. Eric
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 11:29 am

      I think being made in the image of God is to be made in His character.

    74. Bob T
      April 2nd, 2011 @ 1:58 pm

      Larry

      I got on here intending to answer your question that I saw this morning after I got off work.After reading the other posts I don’t think I will go any futher on this subject.I believe I have made it clear what I believe and why I believe It. I think I understand yours also.

      And yes,I am thankful for the shed blood of Jesus Christ,as you wrote.The important thing from this subject is we have hope and know if we serve the Lord we will have eternal life with our Lord.God bless you.

    75. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 3:14 pm

      Larry,

      You wrote:
      “I’m eagerly awaiting anyone to address my question above that may have gotten lost due to the length of my reply, to wit:

      If a person were to begin reading the Bible in chronological order, where do you think the first reference of eternal torture in hell would be revealed in Scripture, and what is the explanation for such tardiness of this doctrine when it is clearly an absolutely horrendous fate to contemplate?”

      Reading the scripture in chronological order would make a lot of difference in a lot of areas. I found out that my “Christian/New Testament” ignorance of what Paul called the Scriptures was striking. There are a lot of “catch phrases” in the NT that require a good understanding of the OT.

      Shalom

    76. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 3:31 pm

      christian,

      Concerning the names in Messiah’s story in Luke:

      The story does not make sense in respect to why people go to heaven and hell if we take it as a story about real people. Affluence and poverty are not the criteria in scripture for determining our eternal fate. They may or may not contribute to it but not all poor people end up in heaven…not all rich in hell. But covetous, stingy, evil eyed people do end up in hell. True servants of Elohim end up in the kingdom of heaven.

      Lazarus comes from a Hebrew name…Eleazar, which means servant of Elohim. So we have a rich man and a servant of Elohim in the story. The rich man lavished himself with what ever he wanted while the servant of Elohim suffered. Why did the servant of Elohim suffer? We are not told how he came to be in the position of being a beggar, but I suspect that he made righteous choices that prevented him from becoming rich in this world.

      If you look at the scriptural context of the story, you will find that covetousness is a major part of the message. The story is not about whether there really is an Abraham’s bosom or a real gulf between it and hell. Should we really get the idea that the story is literal to teach us about heaven and hell? Or is it symbolic to teach us a lesson about covetousness?

      Shalom

    77. christian
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 4:02 pm

      Mr Bo,
      It is a story about Heaven and Hell. Covetousness and GREED are the reasons why a person goes to Hell. Which by reading the story is quite obvious to see and understand the actions of an unsaved person. Which the Savior Jesus was pointing out so clearly.

      Matthew 7:20
      So by their fruit you will know them.”

    78. christian
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 4:09 pm

      Correction….Take out the word “Covetousness” in my above post. The rich man was not being covetousness, He was being greedy.

    79. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 4:36 pm

      What is the difference between covetousness and greed?

    80. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 5:06 pm

      The story of the rich man and servant of Elohim is directly preceded by these verses:

      Luke 16
      14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.
      15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.
      16 The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
      17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
      18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

      This is what is stated at the end of it:

      Luke 16
      31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

      Not only is the story about covetousness it is about a very specific form of covetousness. Divorce and remarriage. The servant of Elohim may well have lost his wife to divorce, but refused to gratify his desires. The rich man may represent the modern church’s practice of sanctioning remarriage. It would seem that the modern “believer” is in the place of the rich man’s brothers. They refuse to hear Moses and are not persuaded by the words of the one that rose from the dead on the topic of remarriage or a host of other sins.

      This parable in Luke does not teach us about the length of punishment in hell. The names mentioned represent something to the original hearers that escapes our culture and folklore. Abraham’s bosom is not heaven.

      If you will notice, the kingdom of heaven/Elohim does not equal heaven. That our spirits return to YHWH at death is not what is referenced in the phrase kingdom of heaven/Elohim. Living in heaven is not our reward for faithfulness. Ruling and reigning with Messiah in the kingdom of heaven/Elohim is.

      Shalom

    81. christian
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 6:14 pm

      Covetousness means to want something from someone else. To wish you had someone’s else possession. Covetousness is worse then jealously. Covetousness makes the Lord unhappy because the Lord wants us to be happy with what we have and not to envy what others have.

      To be greedy, means to not share with what you have. A greedy person is someone who does not share or give to others what you have.

      greedy-
      Excessively desirous of acquiring or possessing, especially wishing to possess more than what one needs or deserves.
      2. Wanting to eat or drink more than one can reasonably consume; gluttonous.

      Covetousness-
      1. Excessively and culpably desirous of the possessions of another. See Synonyms at jealous.
      2. Marked by extreme desire to acquire or possess

    82. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 8:45 pm

      christian,

      Paul says that covetousness is idolatry.

      Colossians 3
      5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

      Isn’t the biblical definition of covetousness-desiring something that is not granted us. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil was prohibited. Eve desired the prohibited. The tenth commandment says not to covet things that belong to another. So evidently we can covet things that do not belong to another. What is it called if we want something that does not belong to another, but still is denied us by YHWH.

      What about the remarriage issue? If she is divorced, in a sense she is not his anymore…but it is covetous for another to desire to take her to wife.

      I think that it is impossible to break any commandment without breaking number 1 and 10. This is why covetousness is idolatry. When we desire something that YHWH has denied us we put it in front of Him. When we have an idol we desire something ahead of YHWH.

      Greed is the love of money…Mammon. It is the root of all evil. James says:

      James 1
      14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
      15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

      James 4
      1 From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hence, even of your lusts that war in your members?
      2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.
      3 Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may consume it upon your lusts.
      4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
      5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

      Lust, covetousness and greed are all one. We can lust for money. We can be greedy for sex. We can covet either. Maybe it is semantics, but the parable in Luke deals with the covetous Pharisees with a story about greed. They must be closely related.

      If greed and covetousness are different, they certainly overlap quite a bit.

      Do you think that remarriage is adultery? Do you think that it is acting on covetousness?

      Shalom

    83. Larry
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 9:19 pm

      Hi Bo,

      You wrote:

      “Reading the scripture in chronological order would make a lot of difference in a lot of areas.”

      Amen to this, Amen!

      God bless,

      Larry

    84. Bo
      April 3rd, 2011 @ 9:43 pm

      Larry,

      I was very, very, very versed in the NT for about 20 years. I once read the NT in less than a week for the express purpose of knowing what it said about “once saved always saved.” Needless to say, I am not a Calvanist.

      About 10 years ago I began a very serious study of the OT…esp. the Torah. I spent about 6 of those years almost exclusively studying and teaching my family from the Torah and relating it to the NT. WOW! What an eye opener. There are so many things that went right over my head in the NT that were quotes and allusions to Torah and it’s teachings. The root of bitterness mentioned in Hebrews is one that comes to mind. Check out what it refers to in Deuteronomy 29:14-29.

      I do not want to be a profane spiritual fornicator that sells my birthright for a small taste of anything, physical or spiritual, that YHWH has forbidden. I am sure Adam and Eve would agree.

      Shalom

    85. Larry
      April 4th, 2011 @ 4:55 am

      Bo said:

      ” There are so many things that went right over my head in the NT that were quotes and allusions to Torah and it’s teachings. ”

      I’m constantly amazed at how many Christians are willing to completely ignore the Old Testament – as if its teachings were no longer relevant. When the apostles were telling the early church about the sufficiency and authority of Scripture, to what were they referring???

      God bless,

      Larry

    86. christian
      April 4th, 2011 @ 5:43 am

      Bo,
      Why are you completely going off subject? The rich man did not commit covetousness. He did not desires another person’s possession. He was being greedy in the form of gluttonous. The story of the rich man and Lazarus is a story of HEAVEN and HELL. The rich man wanted to warn his family about the place of Hell. But he was not allow to leave there. Living in sin will cause a future in Hell.
      Why is that so hard to understand?

      The results of living in sin will result in eternity in HELL.

      Like Paul said in Corinthians 5:53
      For our dying bodies must be transformed into bodies that will never die; our mortal bodies must be transformed into immortal bodies.

      We will have a body prepared for Heaven or a body prepared for Hell for eternity. That means forever and ever.

      If people can not and will not except these facts then so be it. It is what it is. Except and move onwards.

      Praise the Lord for His word. Praise the Lord for Salvation.

    87. christian
      April 4th, 2011 @ 6:22 am

      “Accept”

    88. christian
      April 4th, 2011 @ 10:12 am

      1Corinthians 15:53

    89. Pamela
      April 4th, 2011 @ 7:21 pm

      “The Bible clearly teaches punishment for the wicked. The EFFECT of the second death is eternal, but does the Bible really teach torment is eternal?”

      Hi Larry,

      You had posed this question to everyone, but I believe, as of today, that no one has answered it to your satisfaction; therefore I would like to present an answer to you based on the following of Bible logic. At the end of my presentation, we will find that the declaration of the eternal torment is actually a memorial commemorating those lost souls forever. A display of sorrow that’s quite similar to human customs.

      Since it deals with mankind, let’s begin in the book of Genesis.

      And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Genesis 2:7

      Truism #1 – Man was formed out of a material that not only pre-existed, but can be seen with our naked eye – dust!

      In Hebrews 11:3, the Bible declared that God had formed some of the visible things in our universe out of things that we cannot see, but this is not the case in the creation of our first father and mother, Adam and Eve. After sin and after all those curses that were pronounced upon them, a more detailed description of what death would entail was given in Genesis 3:19…

      “…till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.”

      Truism #2 – Upon death, the human body begins decomposition and reverts back to the dust of the earth.

      Scientists have discovered that the total human body is really made out of water and a handful of very inexpensive chemical elements. What is inconceivable by man is made invaluable by God. Amazing! Remember the prophecy given about Jezebel in 2 Kings 9:10 that she would become dung in a field? Later, in verses 33-37, we read how she was thrown out of a window, then eaten by dogs as she laid dead on the ground. Afterwards, those same dogs went to a field and deposited their waste there.

      Truism #3 – The death of living things can get recycled back into nature in the form of nutrients for other living organisms and/or as a fuel source such as petroleum oil.

      The scriptures in question…

      And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Revelation 20:10

      And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:15

      From these verses, it has been revealed that the lake of fire does involve eternal torment for the unrighteous forever. But before we examine more closely the exact understanding of the word ‘torment’, let’s discover from the Bible the location of this lake of fire. In Matthew 22:44, it reveals that God the Father has declared unto His Son that He will turn His Son’s enemies, the wicked, into His footstool. In Acts 7:49, it says, “Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool…”

      Truism #4 – The earth is God’s footstool of which it has been prophesied that the enemies of Yeshua will become and be made a part of.

      There is no one right now within the lake of fire that is somewhere incorporated in this earth because the Bible has declared of the wicked in 2 Peter 2:9, “to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:” When the second resurrection occurs, all the potential lost are risen back to life. I say potential because in Revelation 20:14-15 it seems as if there will be a second check in the Book of Life before the wicked are thrown in the lake of fire.

      In comparing Revelation 6:9-11, “under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:… that they should rest yet for a little season,” to Revelation 20:3, “after that he must be loosed a little season”, the Bible’s statement of ‘a little season’ could actually be a long time in terms of earth years. I examined those verses for I have been told that the wicked would be resurrected in the same wretched form as their original human bodies were when they died. I don’t believe this theory for those verses do make allowances that the wicked could live again for hundreds of years after the second resurrection. I believe that this second long life being granted to the wicked would be in line with the love of God, therefore I’m concluding that the wicked will be resurrected in perfect bodies that could endure a much longer life than their original natural life. Amen!

      In Revelation 14:15-22, it tells of the angel of God thrusting in his sickle in the ripen harvest of the wicked for them to be thrown “into the great winepress of the wrath of God.” This action results in a great flowing of blood to the height of a horse’s bridle. In Psalm, it speaks of what the righteous will do with the blood of the wicked.

      The righteous shall rejoice when he seeth the vengeance: he shall wash his feet in the blood of the wicked. Psalm 58:10

      This great flowing of the blood of the wicked will occur before they are thrown in the lake of fire. As we all know, in Genesis 9:4, it has declared that the life is in the blood, therefore we can safely assume that the wicked will already be dead before they are thrown in the lake of fire except for a chosen few…

      And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him,… These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Revelation 19:20

      Now this brings us back to the question, “How are the wicked, who will be dead when they are thrown into the lake of fire, to experience eternal torment?” Well, let’s grab Truism #2 together with another definition of the word ‘torment’ which can also mean ‘commotion’, ‘stir up’ and ‘disturb’. In other words, the resurrected bodies of the wicked reverted back to the basic elements that they were created from upon their death, and it is these elements that will experience and be in a constant state of movement/torment, hence they will be tormented forever without rest day and night.

      From science, we know that heat is a reflection of the energy state of an atom. For those ‘reverted back to the basic elements’ of the bodies of the wicked to be in a constant state of torment, they must be in a location of tremendous heat. From science, we also know that the earth contains very hot plasma like core. From this verse, the Bible states that there will be an opening made unto it…

      And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. Revelation 9:2

      The fact that the basic essences that made up the living forms of the wicked will be entombed within the earth, taken out of the cycle of life, never to be used for any else again, to me, will serve as an eternal memorial unto them forever!

      Is that not what humans do to objects that they have placed great value upon?

    90. Larry
      April 4th, 2011 @ 8:34 pm

      Hi Pamela,

      Thank you for your post. You’ve brought some intriguing points to the discussion that I will ponder!

      I can’t seem to communicate to many in this discussion what I consider to be thee most fundamental of logical flaws to the “eternal torture” belief.

      It boils down to this for me: “Are the people who are suffering for all of eternity in hell alive or dead”

      If they’re alive, then they do indeed have “eternal life” – it’s just a very lousy eternal life. This totally contradicts the clear Scriptural teaching that “eternal life” must be inherited by trusting in Jesus, and Genesis 3 when the Lord stationed angels around the tree of life to keep man from gaining eternal life.

      If they’re dead in hell, then they can’t be suffering torment.

      Am I missing something?

      God bless,

      Larry

    91. EDH
      April 4th, 2011 @ 11:10 pm

      Larry,

      I think it’s biblically accurate to say everyone in hell is spiritually dead. Maybe that’s what you were missing?

    92. christian
      April 5th, 2011 @ 5:36 am

      Larry,
      Check out this.

      http://www.soulchoiceministries.com/shop/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SCM&Product_Code=B001&Category_Code=

      Is hell a literal burning place?
      Where is hell?
      Do you have a body in hell?
      Are there children in hell?
      Has anyone in the Bible experienced hell?
      Why should you believe the Bible?
      Can demons torment people on Earth?
      Can demons torment people in hell?

    93. Sheila
      April 5th, 2011 @ 12:32 pm

      You can view his testimony better by going to YouTube and typing in his name. I think it’s a six part series.

    94. Sheila
      April 5th, 2011 @ 12:35 pm

      Actually, this title will give you the whole hour at once.

      FULL: 23 Minutes in Hell by Bill Wiese -Reference Edition

    95. christian
      April 5th, 2011 @ 12:36 pm

      neat

    96. Chuck
      April 11th, 2011 @ 3:24 pm

      From the OT to the NT, the Bible teaches the “destruction, annihilation” of evil. Why don’t we start from there?

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFTBIpsROKs

    97. Tom
      April 11th, 2011 @ 6:51 pm

      Hey Chuck, long time no see!

      Out of curiosity, what do you do with verses like Matt 25:46 which speak of eternal punishment?

      Also, this broadcast of fighting for the faith (http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2011/03/ji-packer-on-hell-and-the-fate-of-humanity.html) might be good to think about.

      Take care,
      Tom

    98. Yoo Hoo
      April 12th, 2011 @ 7:57 pm

      Haven’t read Bell’s book yet(don’t have it). Listened to this program 1x but need to listen again. Just read this interesting post by Craig Blomberg of Denver Seminary entitled ‘A Better Hell”: http://www.denverseminary.edu/craig-blombergs-blog-new-testament-musings/a-better-hell/ .

    99. Yoo Hoo
      April 13th, 2011 @ 1:37 am

      Something else posted online(Bell after all the controversy): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wfboAzw-XGU&feature=player_embedded

    100. Sheila
      April 13th, 2011 @ 6:32 am

      Tom,

      I couldn’t get the link you gave to work.

      Condensing a comment for End Time forum.

    101. Dan1el
      April 17th, 2011 @ 9:48 am

      Now, I don’t believe what Rob Bell teaches; but there are SERIOUS questions one may ask BASED UPON SCRIPTURE.

      What ?

      Matt 12:32 “And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age OR IN THE AGE TO COME.”
      +
      Matt 5:26 “Truly, I say to you, you will never get out UNTIL YOU HAVE PAID EVERY LAST PENNY.”

      (does this mean that they may “pay” for their sins [having been in torment], and, finally, in SOME future age to come, exit the place of torment?]

      —————————
      Then, there is that question of WHAT EXACTLY “aionion” means — which, I have no idea.

      However, it IS interesting that the same word describing the “eternal” (αἰώνιος [1 Th 1:9]) destruction is the word describing “eternal” (αἰώνιος [John 5:24]) life.

      Are you, then, saying that “eternal” life is NOT “eternal” life; but “life for an age”?? That doesn’t make sense at all; Paul says, “…and SO SHALL WE BE WITH HIM FOR EVER MORE.”
      —————————

    102. mark musone
      December 18th, 2012 @ 1:49 pm

      I have been a believer in universal reconiliation for 2 years now. This is a very sound doctrine supported by many verses. Eph. 2:8,9 We are saved by grace through faith not of yourself it’s Gods gift. The faith here is not yours its Christ’s faith. Remember in 1 Cor:2 14 The carnal man cannot understand the Spiritual matters because they are from a spiritual standpoint he has not received the gift of faith. We ourselves cannot muster enough faith on our own to believe in salvation and subsitionary death. God must give you the gift of faith as he must give you a spark of it for you to believe. Remember it is God who draws and leads you to believe John 6:44 & 65. So if he does not give someone the gift of faith he will hold you responsible forever in a place called hell?? God discplines us, not tortures us, these people who do not believe will go to hell but for a temporal time and not everlasting. 1 Cor.15:22 All will be made alive but to their own order of resurecction. Remember the wages of sin is death and not eternal hell fire. Christ all ready payed the price for sin he died for us so we can live with Him. If one person is eternally dead then Jesus would be a failure.

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