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  • Why Do Some People Backslide?

    November 23, 2010 | 245 Comments

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    245 Responses to “Why Do Some People Backslide?”

    1. Grace
      November 23rd, 2010 @ 4:09 pm

      I have been through so many hard times and painful issues and I am only 30. From having a horrible home life since the day I was born until the day I left to attend BRSM in Jan. 1999 through many, many, other things up till now. And even now, there are some painful things that continue to go unchanged even though I have cried out so many times…they have gone on for years. However I have always viewed all of the issues and pain and what others have done to me like this: What does that have to do with God and Who He is and how He loves me? Bad things happen. We live in a fallen world. But God still remains Who He is. And no matter what, I have made a commitment to serve Him the rest of my life. There is a song that I recently came across that says exactly how I feel. It is called “No Matter What” by Kerrie Roberts. Here are the lyrics, but it might be more encouraging if someone checks it out and listens to it. :0)
      I’m running back to your promises one more time, Lord that’s all I can hold on to, I gotta say this has taken me by surprise, but nothing surprises you. Before a heartache can ever touch my life, it has to go through Your hands, and even though I, keep asking why, I keep asking why,
      No matter what, I’m gonna love You, no matter what I’m gonna need You, I know that You can find a way to keep me from the pain but if not,if not, I’ll trust you, no matter what, no matter what.

      When I’m stuck in this nothing-ness by myself, I’m just sitting in silence, there’s no way I can make it without Your help, I wont even try it. I know You have Your reasons for everything, so I will keep believing, whatever I might be feeling, God you are my hope, and you’ll be my strength,

      No matter what, I’m gonna love You, no matter what I’m gonna need You, I know that You can find a way to keep me from the pain but if not, if not, I’ll trust you, no matter what, no matter what.
      Anything I don’t have You can give it to me, but it’s ok if You don’t, I’m not here for those things, the touch of Your love is enough on its own, no matter what I still love You and I’m gonna need You….

    2. Eric
      November 24th, 2010 @ 2:41 am

      Great show today.

      It really touched me. God is so true and faithful!

      Glory glory glory to God!

    3. Travis Mansfield
      November 24th, 2010 @ 11:37 pm

      Everything that the Lord does, and allows is for our good, so that we can have a closer relationship with Him, which means we are more blessed, no matter what the circumstances.

    4. Chuck
      November 25th, 2010 @ 6:08 am

      Why do some people backslide?

      Maybe because of the lack of sound doctrine in most churches. 3 in 1? I mean, really!

    5. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 8:39 am

      I don’t see how folks who know the Lord can backslide. I mean why would anyone leave Jesus? He is so kind, so nice, so full of compassion and so, so faithful. Jesus doesn’t cause problems in folks lives.
      I think folks who backslide have harden their hearts against the Lord and blame Him for things that go wrong in their life.
      I think they forget Jesus loves them and is on their side. Satan is the enemy blame Him.

      However, I can understand how a follower of Christ can isolate themselves from fellowship.

    6. Chuck
      November 25th, 2010 @ 9:01 am


      I don’t see how folks who know the Lord can backslide.

      Ummm…heard of King David, Solomon etc.?

      …I can understand how a follower of Christ can isolate themselves from fellowship.

      Mainly from what the scriptures say.

    7. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      November 25th, 2010 @ 9:38 am

      Chuck, in all seriousness, please have the discipline not to introduce the question of the deity of Jesus into this thread. Other threads on the subject are approaching 500 posts, scores of them from you, so be kind enough not to introduce that subject here — even if you meant it in jest. If you really believe that people backslide because of the doctrine of Jesus’ deity and God’s tri-unity, you’ll have to discuss that somewhere else rather than here.

      My experience, however, over the last 39 years is that people who really know and worship and adore Yeshua — as God and Lord — are the least likely to backslide.


    8. Ben
      November 25th, 2010 @ 10:07 am

      “I don’t see how folks who know the Lord can backslide. He is so kind, so nice, so full of compassion and so, so faithful. Jesus doesn’t cause problems in folks lives.”

      it’s quite easy. everyone’s different. I can suggest a few reasons (and i can speak for many): jesus is distant, like a fictional character in a story book. DO we hear him? can I touch him? relationship with him? how can one have a relationship with a brick wall? at least the brick wall answers, but Jesus don’t say nothing back. First point – the perceived distance of Jesus. it is perceived and the logical conclusion is that he is not there, he was never there. main reason.

      some people pray hoping that he will answer that prayer. and if that does not come to pass they may lose hope.

    9. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 10:42 am

      What does the brick wall say to you??

    10. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 10:58 am

      King David never backslid. He sinned. (like us all) But he never left the Lord. He was a man after the Lord’s own heart.

      Can not wait til I meet King David one day when I go to Heaven. :)

    11. Travis Mansfield
      November 25th, 2010 @ 11:30 am

      Backslid is about sinning.

    12. Travis Mansfield
      November 25th, 2010 @ 11:32 am

      There are so many reasons, and answers to that, likely we might state many reasons, but not get them all.

      The truth is, whatever the situation, people are not having a pure heart, and they are not having a true relationship with the Eloheem/God that is with us.

    13. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 12:21 pm

      Backslide is about leaving the Lord.

      The word “backslide” literally means “turn back” or “turn away” from God.

      We all sin. Sin leads to backsliding, but the Holy Spirit convicts a follower of Christ of sin. It is those that harden their hearts to the Holy Spirit that backslide. But those who get convicted of sin and repents does not backslide. Because they care too much about the Lord to leave Him.

    14. Ruth
      November 25th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

      I know we’ve all heard it a million times by now, but…I think a lot depends on who our role models are.

      American kids, most grow up watching t.v. and movies, and while our parents might be pretty careful about what we see while we’re very impressionable (generally), by the teen years, we’re looking at the people who are ‘out there’ in some famous light and imagining ourselves being like them.

      And what are these famous, glamourous people doing? Part of their career in the limelight depends on being noticed, and generally speaking, they aren’t living lives of holiness. They’re partying with alcohol and drugs; they’re fornicating, comitting adultery, spending their money ostentatiously. Even if they are serious artists, oftentimes they are unfaithful to their spouses, or just wrapped up in their own vision of what they want their stamp of individuality to be, and — it doesn’t include asking themselves, ‘What does God want from me?’ I like that line by Bob Dylan, “Do you ever wonder just what God requires? You think He’s just an errand boy to satisfy your wandering desires?” The world is focused on celebrity, and celebrities are often providing poor role models. Sometimes people imagine that these famous people are happier than they actually are, and want to imitate them. The music scene of the 60′s and 70′s was very lucrative because people flocked to these concerts and imitated their “idols” in every way. And very few were promoting a life of service to God. Even if many people were still going to church and hearing the pastor quote the words of the Lord there, the glamour, the fame, the wealth in the world — are still more attractive.

      They aren’t looking to Jesus for their role model. He might be inspiring for Sunday, and for feeling spiritual now and then, but He’s not their daily bread — the world is where they’re feeding. So you might say that though seeds of holiness are still falling, they’re getting choked out by the world and all it brings to bear.

      I think many times people have to hit “rock bottom,” whatever that is for them, before they realize that the drugs, sex, materialism, self-centeredness — isn’t going to satisfy the void which only a relationship with God can. At some point, they realize they’ve come to the end of a certain path and it has nothing to offer them, and no more appeal. At that point, they look higher, reach deeper, answer the call on their hearts that, in all honesty, has probably been there for years. Maybe a person can think they’ve been at that place (of real repentance) before, but apparently, they didn’t hit that final point where they know beyond any doubts, there’s no going back to that life of sin — it’s not merely ‘empty’ of God, it is full of wickedness.

      Discouragement can make people backslide. When they place their trust in a person, say a particular teacher, or maybe a close friend. And that person turns out to have “feet of clay” or just disappoint them in some way. Instead of realizing that they’ve placed too much trust in a flawed human being, they dump it all — throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak. People will say they’re turned off by religion, and it turns out to be that someone whom they believed in didn’t live up to what was expected of their role.

      Christ is the Rock, truly, and when we find that, we know we’ve taken ahold of something durable, solid, unchanging. When we hold on to the feet of others, or place them on pedestals, those feet will shatter, that pedestal will topple — because ultimately God will not allow us to place our deepest trust in anyone but Him.

      I remember when I was a teenager, and hanging out with my older sibling. After school, we’d go to a local park with friends, sit in the car, smoking, drinking. I don’t have many clear memories of that period, but I do remember vividly the moment I realized I was through with drinking. As I was vomiting (for probably the fifth time that month) I remember thinking, “This is stupid. This isn’t any fun.” I had really reached the endgame of that activity.

      But even though drinking didn’t appeal, I still wasn’t saved. I went through many different religions in my search for God. The musicians I admired, as so many of my generation did, were trying Hinduism, Buddhism — all kinds of eastern “isms” — and I thought they were all pretty “cool” and “hip” and even though I still admired what I knew of Jesus, I didn’t feel that I saw Him in the lives of the “Christians” I met. I didn’t want to be like them: ‘square,’ dull, boring. I spent years searching in the wrong place for God. But like the dead-ends that they all, in turn, were, I reached the endpoint of those paths.

      It’s maybe a little harder to backslide when you come to the end of something; when you’ve tapped it out, when you’re at its dregs.

      And maybe that has given me a deeper appreciation than perhaps someone who may have never tried all the paths I’ve tried. I hope it doesn’t take anyone that degree of failing — because it is a very painful way to learn. I just know that for some, they will walk on a lot of shifting sand before they recognize and appreciate the Rock that is the LORD.

    15. Ruth
      November 25th, 2010 @ 4:50 pm


      I think it would be especially hard for a person if they had someone like say Bart Ehrmann, for a role model. A persuasive believer who publicly denounces — that’s going to take many away with them.

    16. Travis Mansfield
      November 25th, 2010 @ 6:32 pm


      As this website shows the definition of backsliding, it can be talking about a significant event or a small one. Backsliding is about sinning, anytime someone sins it is as if they are sliding backward, or turning away, but when we repent and confess we turn back toward Eloheem/God, and we go forward again.

    17. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 6:51 pm

      You do not have to show me or tell me what backsliding means. i already posted what it meant. I know what it means.

    18. Debbie Fraser
      November 25th, 2010 @ 6:55 pm

      Lord help me please,

    19. Ben
      November 25th, 2010 @ 8:22 pm

      more commments:
      I’ve seen it happen with my friend. let’s call him 123. I asked 123 why he dont believe in God no more and he said things like: “it’s all man made bboi, it’s all man made”. and he also said “i believe in god just not the xian god. how do you know that your god is the one”. and he also said the laws of God are seen as constraints on free living – living which he finds so “liberating” namely: sex, porn, drugs, booze – god’s laws constraining those things he views as unnatural human imposed constraints on free living.

      (1) sin feels good. for now. and this blinds people from God.
      (2) relational aspect. not many people have seen/heard/experienced God in a way that is meaningful to them.
      (3) new age thinking and foreign schools of thought become embedded and replace God’s thinking and his edicts.

    20. Ruth
      November 25th, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

      I know that when the children of Israel backslid, it was often because one of their leaders set the example of idolatry; e.g. King Solomon.

      I know, too, that seeing neighboring nations doing things that seemed to be enjoyable, without their peculiar constraints, also appealed to them at different periods.

      In the Helenistic period of Greece, Jews, fluent in Greek, and living among these interesting pagans, being exposed to their ideas and customs, also found their culture attractive and influential.

      It is a human trait to gaze upon those who seem to be enjoying life more fully, at least in material terms, and to desire what they seem to have. Or, as in the case of the Greek-speaking world, ideas can carry such currency that one can get swept away by them as if by irresistable winds. And we leave the faith of our fathers, intoxicating ourselves with what at first seems so freeing, but in the end, leaves us with an empty cup, or worse, misery.

      I have never known more happiness and joy than being grafted in to the root which the Lord sowed. The Lord’s atonement; His forgivness and mercy, has meant everything: it’s Life itself.

    21. Ruth
      November 25th, 2010 @ 9:16 pm

      When the Lord can say of Israel, “I have reason to celebrate! My son, who was dead, has returned to me” — what a glorious time that will be.

    22. Chuck
      November 25th, 2010 @ 10:13 pm

      Dr Brown

      If you really believe that people backslide because of the doctrine of Jesus’ deity and God’s tri-unity, you’ll have to discuss that somewhere else rather than here.

      I thought the person of Jesus Christ is the Gospel.

      My experience shows that many, due to the inability of their respective churches to clearly define not only who Jesus is but what the Gospel message is, are backsliding!

    23. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      November 25th, 2010 @ 10:21 pm


      No argument with that, but that wasn’t your point, hence my post.

    24. Sheila
      November 26th, 2010 @ 1:44 am

      I think a lot of reasons people backslide is because they get caught up in persuing the things of this world, whether acquiring material possessions, or, focusing on getting ahead in their jobs, and they don’t remain focused on the things of God and the Kingdom. They focus on immediate needs, and desires, having lost the art of patience and self denial, as this is what advertisers have programmed them to do. The advertising industry is operating on the findings of the Doctors of Psychiatry who understand human nature perfectly and they taylor the selling of their products specifically to prey on our fallen state, and the desires of fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It is so very difficult in this modern age to stay focused on the Lord in our everyday lives. Another reason is, in the real world of work and of being thrown together with those who are not like minded, we naturally have to associate with those who walk contrary to Him. Backsliding is most often a subtle process that happens one degree at a time. The things that influence us when we loose focus on God, seem to move Him further and further to the back of the mind, until we no longer recognize how distorted our thoughts and actions have become, in light of what they once were. We have silenced the Spirit that once convicted us to such an extent that we no longer even hear His voice.

      The major reason, in my observation, is that those most apt to backslide don’t continue in the word, or, in prayer on a daily basis. If we are not spending time in the scriptures then we are not being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him, and our eye is singular. Thank God if we recognize how far we have removed ourselves in time to recover.

    25. Debbie Fraser
      November 26th, 2010 @ 7:16 am

      Want to hear something really scarey? I have a friend who believes in the theory “once saved always saved”. Well, we have a friend that was on fire for the Lord. He would fly out to Ohio and spend days at Pastor Rod Pasley’s conferences. He would faithfully go to bible study and attend church weekly. Anyways this guy now moved from Massachusetts to New York. He is now a cross dresser and “left the Lord”. My friend believes that this guy is still saved.

      The big question to you all is this….Do you believe those who are blacksliders are still saved?
      Hmmm…you might say.

    26. Debbie Fraser
      November 26th, 2010 @ 7:22 am

      typo…Pastor Rod Parsley

    27. Chuck
      November 26th, 2010 @ 8:39 am

      Dr Brown

      No argument with that, but that wasn’t your point, hence my post.

      The preaching/teaching of “another Jesus” is tantamount to preaching/teaching “another Gospel” [2Cor 11.4].

    28. Sheila
      November 26th, 2010 @ 9:09 am


      I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I spent about 2-3 years reading only the Bible when I was searching for who God was and who Jesus was, and I was able to discern every aspect of exactly who Jesus was and what the message said, “before” I turned to anyone else’s commentaries. And then, I was elated to find that what I had discovered for myself within the pages of the Book, was reinforced by those most learned scholars. So, I didn’t get my learning from anyone, I went right to the source and it was there in the Spirit breathed word.

      What preaching/teaching are you referring to that leads people to backslide? Do you mean the feel-good-have everything you want now Gospel?

    29. Sheila
      November 26th, 2010 @ 9:26 am

      Oh, I beg your pardon, I see where something other than what is being discussed about backsliding had almost sliden in here.

    30. Chuck
      November 26th, 2010 @ 10:19 am


      What preaching/teaching are you referring to that leads people to backslide? Do you mean the feel-good-have everything you want now Gospel?

      Yeah, that too Sheila. But the most pertinent one is how ‘Christendome’ has almost separated Jesus from the Gospel message of the coming Kingdom of God [Mar 1.14-15]. The sole reason for which he was sent/commissioned [Luke 4.43].

    31. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      November 26th, 2010 @ 10:58 am


      My last comment to you about this here:

      First, if you want to debate the deity of Jesus, there’s another thread in which you can do so. (Don’t respond, just comply, OK?) You understand what is being said to you, so you don’t need to attempt to justify your posts here. (I avoid being so blunt here, but this time, it appears necessary.)

      Second, if you’re claiming that I and all others who preach the deity of Jesus are preaching another gospel and another Jesus — and therefore a false gospel that damns people to hell, as per Paul’s words in Galatians — then you are in much more serious deception than I realized and you need to humble yourself and repent.

      If you don’t mean to say this, simply say so, without trying to justify your statement (since, as I’ll state for the last time, this is not the place for that discussion), and be much more careful with your words in the future. If you meant to say so, you’ve made yourself perfectly clear, but everyone else posting here should realize that you consider them (along with almost all Christian leaders in history) to be hell-bound heretics who are damning others to hell with their message.

      So, to be perfectly clear, I’m asking for one response only: If you didn’t mean to make this claim that we are preaching another Jesus/gospel, then simply retract the statement. If you meant it as stated, please do not respond to my post. You have made yourself clear, and everyone needs to understand who they’re dealing with so they can interact with you appropriately. I wish you grace!


    32. Ruth
      November 26th, 2010 @ 12:11 pm

      It’s interesting that the Lord came at a time when paganism was so rampant. Men lying with men and with boys was openly embraced in Greece. Even Zeus, their ‘father god’ was guilty of bestiality in the story of Leda and the swan, whose form he took. False religions, sexual perverseness, binding teachings, what a world Jesus entered into!

      He came as a shepherd will, seeking all the lost sheep who had gone astray. The shepherds who were in charge had not taken care of the sheep, so He came personally to seek them all out. Just such a beautiful thought. To find them in all sorts of predicaments, and to offer cleansing and healing and freedom.

    33. Ruth
      November 26th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm

      Not that I’m introducing the topic again, Sheila, from an earlier thread…but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment. The world is always whirring about us, seeking, sometimes demanding, our attention. It’s so nice to turn it way, way down, and turn away from the everyday world and tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself. Ahhhh…refreshing…

    34. Debbie Fraser
      November 27th, 2010 @ 6:25 am

      Yesterday while I was on my walk. I was rejoicing in the Lord. I had such an “I love you Lord” moment. He really truly does meet our needs. When we are weak, it is the Lord’s strength that carries us. He encourages us and His promises really are Ye and Amen. I truly, truly trust in the Lord. I feel so safe with Him. To feel that way is so comforting.

      That is why it is important to keep a strong relationship with the Lord. It protects against backsliding.

      Although I must admit sometimes the Lord seems to be silent in our lives. Those are the times Satan can come in and whisper to you…See the Lord really doesn’t love you, He doesn’t care about you. But you have to push those thoughts, those lies out of your mind. Remember what the word says. I tell you it is a battle sometimes. But the Lord sees your battle and He will jump in and straighten it all out.

      Praise you Lord. :)

    35. Sheila
      November 27th, 2010 @ 8:53 am


      You’re so, so right! “tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself.”

      That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.


    36. Sheila
      November 27th, 2010 @ 9:10 am


      The show I was thinking of earlier is available on Dr. Brown’s Home Page. It’s called “Think it Thru”, “A Rest Beyond the Sabbath.” I’m not in any way trying to disuade you, I just thought you would really enjoy it.

      I enjoy your posts, they are well articulated and passionate. Your love for the Lord is evident. We all have our own walk that He walks with us!

    37. Sheila
      November 27th, 2010 @ 9:27 am

      I’m glad you found a place to interact, Debbie.

      The love (and passion) of all who post is evident. And no matter where we each are in our walk with the Lord, let’s remember that we each supply our own part to the Body, not thinking of the little toe, “We don’t need you”.

      If the little toe is falling away, backsliding, go after him and bring him back!

    38. Sheila
      November 27th, 2010 @ 9:49 am

      Off topic a bit.

      I’m led to adjure all who enjoy these interactions to help support Dr. Brown’s Ministry. He has disciples sent to different parts of the world and has lost some sheep in India to our common enemy. They are now scattered and peeled and without support. Could all who post, say, within the next week, give a little something? Dr. Brown supplies us with wisdom and free resources and a place to express ourselves freely. The worker in Christ is worthy of his hire.

      God Bless and may the Spirit move you to respond.

    39. Jabez H.
      November 27th, 2010 @ 1:09 pm

      Because of turning from grace, to go “back under the law”, and losing connection from the Head many have met the definition of the loosely used term. This may be a part of normal maturity, to be in such a state, think we can be righteous, come up way short, and quickly run back in the embrace of the wings of an abiding grace.

      The concept here is not cheap grace, but being in grace as the bottom line to one’s being in Christ. Soberly speaking, this back and forth seems prevailent until it dawns on one that there is only one basis for sufficiency, and for a resulting service in Him (II Cor 4+-).

    40. Dave
      November 27th, 2010 @ 4:08 pm

      Great post, Jabez.

    41. Ruth
      November 27th, 2010 @ 5:39 pm


    42. Ruth
      November 27th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm

      “That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.” – Sheila

      ALL THE TIME, Sheila? Wow, that’s phenomenal. I don’t know if anyone else on planet earth could say that. I know that for me, there are times when I’m thinking about other, more mundane things.

    43. Sheila
      November 27th, 2010 @ 11:18 pm

      It’s a sad day when Christians loose their sense of humor… I said it in the same vein as, when someone says, “Oh, I love that television show, I watch it all the time.” The point being, no matter what I’m doing, I consider myself to still be “in the Lord”, even if I’m doing something mundane like washing dishing, or vacuuming the floor.

      And this is not the place I would share “mundane things”.

      You’ve cut me very deeply, Ruth.

    44. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:09 am

      I think it’s mutual, Sheila.

      People assuming that if you observe a Day, that this must mean the rest of the week you’re cut off from the Source of Life is quite hurtful, too.

      Or when they accuse you of backsliding into the ‘Old Covenant’ because of immaturity, being unable to grasp things spiritually, only literally.

      It’s not only hurtful, it’s also very ironic. Because they’re saying they can’t be judged whilst they themselves do judge, and consider themselves righteous judges.

      Only perfect people do not sin with their mouths (or their pens and keyboards). I don’t think they actually exist on earth.

      Just an observation.

    45. Jabez H.
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:54 am

      Ruth, Having accused noo ne of blacksliding due to immaturity, what I offered was a summary of what Paul stated as to the origin of the whole notion of backsliding. This defitiion is his, and his alone. Gal. last part of Chapter 2, and most of 3 basically set the notion in place for his letter readers, including myself. I was not thinking of you or responding to your postings at all in my assertion of what Paul said.

      Each and every adopted child of God has the capacity of going back to “those weak and miserable principles”, which differs from practicing personal observations for personal devotions. The case Paul discusses is not of those devoted to Christ at all, but of those who move away from such devotion to practice the law in its place.

      One tenet of discipleship is to take nothing personally but what Jesus offers a believer: as to postion, process, and practical faith. “Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law” (3:25). This is a truth I head many years ago and examined in depth in Galations, Romans, and Corinthians at the time to see if it was true.

      In some Christian counseling material the basic tension seen in any soul is between being in grace–and extending its rest to oneself–or being under the law. The later case then is something through which one can be constantly in tension in life as to identity and well being. This is not to say that one excuses sin in the process of entering into this kind of gracious rest, it is to say that basic youth conflicts of identity are accpeted as part and parcial to the Spirit of Adoption which we received on becoming God’s child in each and every instance.

      Unfortunately, in some cases, it becomes a lifetime sturggle for some, whose self identity and sense of self condemnation–and condemnation of others–is always in a roller coaster state of existence. Tom 8:28-39 is a matter of trust and internalization of its bearing for all of us. I know nothing of your maturity or lack, and, frankly, in offering my insight, was responding only to the forum question, not to ongoing discussions at all.

    46. Jabez H.
      November 28th, 2010 @ 1:01 am

      Tyos once more, The last paragraph is Romans *:28-39, others are less problematic.

    47. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 2:09 am

      I feel quite convinced that:

      God did not punish the children of Israel for doing things that we, the nations, by some caprice of His whim, are now able to do with His blessing. It remains that we cannot do those things He’s told us He disapproves of if we would please Him.

      But we are not under the law’s supervision, quite true, because ever since the Messiah’s atonement for our sins, believers are under the supervision of the Lord Himself who abides within. He will not go against His own will, as already expressed in those commandments.

      The sometimes-posed argument that God now approves of homosexuality, for example, collapses by this very same principle that He is not a man that He will change His mind.

      Jesus paid for our sins with His royal blood (that’s the good news) and that’s why the Old Covenant (which had been paid imperfectly by the blood of bulls and goats) could be replaced by a better one. But note that under the New Covenant, God said He will write His laws on our hearts — even nearer, ever dearer. It certainly doesn’t mean we can toss out his Commandments with impunity, (or all but nine) as is often misunderstood, and I dare to say, frequently but wrongly exhorted. Paul is perfectly succinct on that point in more than just Romans 6:15.

      Jesus stated, “If any of you has a sheep and it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will you not take hold of it and lift it out? How much more valuable is a person than a sheep! Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.”
      Matthew 12:11-12. What part of His statement “on the Sabbath” reflects a cancellation of the Sabbath? What part of that statement reflects the notion that the Sabbath is every day?

      What we need to ask is: What is sin, really?

      While I’m sure its definition is even broader than simple lawlessness, that remains its foundational definition. For it wasn’t until the law convicted us that we knew what was sin. Now we have the indwelling Spirit to convict our consciences. Even nearer, ever dearer.

      I would actually enjoy resuming discussion of this subject on the previous (or better yet, another, more appropriate) thread, but we should wait a few more weeks, as requested by our host.

      For this thread, a discussion of what IS sin, actually, would be appropriate.

    48. Dave
      November 28th, 2010 @ 3:51 am

      A personal story of backsliding:

      I “backslid”, or whatever one would like to call it, about 10 years ago. I was involved with a powerful move of God in the late 90′s and my involvement with this movement was right at the time I was saved. I was very much “on fire” for God. It was genuine and God was very present in a powerful way both personally and corporately at the church I was attending.

      My problem was I didn’t have any foundation in the reality of what God did for me. What I mean is I didn’t understand that he had become my righteousness….I didn’t know anything of him changing me and the fact that it was not my own strength that would keep me. I knew it was him who had changed my heart, of course, but as far as living an overcoming life…well I was in revival atmosphere and with his Spirit so present one could hardly even think of sinning or being distant from him.

      I had(and still do have) a passion for living in purity. I had instantly overcome many things when saved, but other things were still a fight…especially internally. I had gone to all the “deliverance” meetings, along with much counsel and prayer from others not to mention my own spiritual life begging God for true victory…not just externally, but internally.

      Well, without being graphic, my fiance and I slipped up about a week before our wedding. This threw us into such a tailspin that we both wound up backsliding heavily for a good year.

      The problem was we had no understanding of the foundations of God’s heart for us. We had no real grasp of his forgiveness and the reality that we can confess our sin, move forward and continue to grow in the Lord. Living an overcoming life to me meant one thing; try harder. Yet I often avoided the bible in fear and apprehension because all it did was prove how far from God and his standards I really was.

      Even after we got our heads back on, it has taken many years to really grasp the reality that the bible is there to “divide between soul and spirit” and to renew our minds. It is by spending time in his word with the Holy Spirit that life is imparted and I am “conformed to his image”. It now has become a hope to me. When I read something that is a description of a believer’s life that I have not quite attained I have learned to meditate and pray and declare it over my life. I have learned to sit and let the Holy Spirit specifically show me practical ways I can agree with his word…but as far as the change on the inside, well that is his doing.

      The biggest thing I have found is that the more I take my eyes off of myself and my sin, the more I overcome. This is not to be misinterpreted as I don’t have any sin or that I’m not open to his correction, but rather I have a regular “open door policy” for THE LORD to deal with me what he wants to deal with. I do my part by spending time with him in his presence and in his word. There are seasons where it is all about him dealing with me on issues and maturing me, and then there are seasons where I am just resting in his presence and intimacy. I have learned to not try and “control” what the Lord wants to do in me at any given time due to my pet doctrines or understandings of how I think the Lord works. Rather, it is actually becoming a relationship! Imagine that!

      So, to conclude, I’ll list 2 reasons I believe some backslide. One is because they have no real foundation of the heart and truth of God(both obviously evident in his word). We must know his heart for us but we must also know his truth. These two together produce faith, and we know that it is by faith we “overcome the world”.

      And secondly, I would say some backslide because there is not a balance of knowing “both the kindness and sincerity of the Lord”. I believe there is a process in our maturing that come to know both, but if there is a refusal or misunderstanding of one of these, it can be quite detrimental. In our current culture, I would say we don’t have a grasp on his severity…but that is a generalized statement as it certainly is the case for those ONLY knowing his severity. This was my problem, and it’s consequences can also be quite detrimental.

    49. Dave
      November 28th, 2010 @ 3:58 am

      Typo correction:

      Last paragraph should say “kindness and SEVERITY”, not sincerity.

    50. Jabez H.
      November 28th, 2010 @ 5:19 am

      Ruth and David, I am not going to write on what is sin, for, the Covenant I have responded to in faith by grace was mediated by Jesus, not by Moses.

      If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His.

      The Old was condtional, about judgment, fear of punishment, God’s wrath displayed, with forboding from a high mountain, formed in wandering in the desert, it was physical with physical outworkings required, it delt with earthly realities, and proved God would put his feet and presence for awe on earth as needed (yet without intimacy), it was somber, dark, forboding on initiation, dreadrul, where G-d was to be avoided for direct contact, it involved the blood of animals, birds, tec., and ongoing sacrifice to cover sin. All this was inadequate, of temporary effect, and must be repeated, Moses was the mediator who was considered unworthy to enter the Promised Land he strove for.

      The New Covenant offers partaking of blessing, forgiveness, redemption, acceptance, with God’s grace displayed by His own appointed actions. It pointed to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem as a dwelling place with the foundations of the words and lives of the Apostles. We are given a pitcute of being in the City of the living God. It is based on a spiritual relationship given of the sent promise to any and all who accept the relationship. Where God dwells in us, of ight, with an inviting warmth. It is of a Message of lovingkindness and mercy, which is to be embraced by the ever atoning blood of the Appointed One, Jesus. His sacrifice was made not to condemn the world but of permanent effect resulting in acceptance in the belowved and calling Jesus Father, our PaPa.

      Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Old with a New and Living Way, where the love of the brehtren is to continue as the sign of God with us. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
      We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways. WE may give the praise of sacrifice to Him because of Him. Desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things, the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep did so through the blood of the eternal covenant. He “equipped us to do His good will….grace be with you all”. (Heb 13, ending blessings).

    51. Jabez H.
      November 28th, 2010 @ 5:19 am

      Ruth and David, I am not going to write on what is sin, for, the Covenant I have responded to in faith by grace was mediated by Jesus, not by Moses.

      If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His.

      The Old was condtional, about judgment, fear of punishment, God’s wrath displayed, with forboding from a high mountain, formed in wandering in the desert, it was physical with physical outworkings required, it delt with earthly realities, and proved God would put his feet and presence for awe on earth as needed (yet without intimacy), it was somber, dark, forboding on initiation, dreadrul, where G-d was to be avoided for direct contact, it involved the blood of animals, birds, tec., and ongoing sacrifice to cover sin. All this was inadequate, of temporary effect, and must be repeated, Moses was the mediator who was considered unworthy to enter the Promised Land he strove for.

      The New Covenant offers partaking of blessing, forgiveness, redemption, acceptance, with God’s grace displayed by His own appointed actions. It pointed to Mount Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem as a dwelling place with the foundations of the words and lives of the Apostles. We are given a pitcute of being in the City of the living God. It is based on a spiritual relationship given of the sent promise to any and all who accept the relationship. Where God dwells in us, of ight, with an inviting warmth. It is of a Message of lovingkindness and mercy, which is to be embraced by the ever atoning blood of the Appointed One, Jesus. His sacrifice was made not to condemn the world but of permanent effect resulting in acceptance in the belowved and calling Jesus Father, our PaPa.

      Jesus fulfills the requirements of the Old with a New and Living Way, where the love of the brehtren is to continue as the sign of God with us. Jesus, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
      We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways. WE may give the praise of sacrifice to Him because of Him. Desiring to conduct ourselves honorably in all things, the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep did so through the blood of the eternal covenant. He “equipped us to do His good will….grace be with you all”. (Heb 13, ending blessings). Let it be so.

    52. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 6:55 am

      Amen Jebez. That is why we Praise Jesus. That is why we worship the Lord.

      Rejoice and be glad. Today is a new day in Christ.

    53. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 9:50 am

      Thank you Sheila for your kind words. :)

    54. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 9:53 am

      The Lord gave this to me this morning.

      Psalm 73

      1 Surely God is good to Israel,
      to those who are pure in heart.

      2 But as for me, my feet had almost slipped;
      I had nearly lost my foothold.
      3 For I envied the arrogant
      when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

      4 They have no struggles;
      their bodies are healthy and strong.[a]
      5 They are free from common human burdens;
      they are not plagued by human ills.
      6 Therefore pride is their necklace;
      they clothe themselves with violence.
      7 From their callous hearts comes iniquity[b];
      their evil imaginations have no limits.
      8 They scoff, and speak with malice;
      with arrogance they threaten oppression.
      9 Their mouths lay claim to heaven,
      and their tongues take possession of the earth.
      10 Therefore their people turn to them
      and drink up waters in abundance.[c]
      11 They say, “How would God know?
      Does the Most High know anything?”

      12 This is what the wicked are like—
      always free of care, they go on amassing wealth.

      13 Surely in vain I have kept my heart pure
      and have washed my hands in innocence.
      14 All day long I have been afflicted,
      and every morning brings new punishments.

      15 If I had spoken out like that,
      I would have betrayed your children.
      16 When I tried to understand all this,
      it troubled me deeply
      17 till I entered the sanctuary of God;
      then I understood their final destiny.

      18 Surely you place them on slippery ground;
      you cast them down to ruin.
      19 How suddenly are they destroyed,
      completely swept away by terrors!
      20 They are like a dream when one awakes;
      when you arise, Lord,
      you will despise them as fantasies.

      21 When my heart was grieved
      and my spirit embittered,
      22 I was senseless and ignorant;
      I was a brute beast before you.

      23 Yet I am always with you;
      you hold me by my right hand.
      24 You guide me with your counsel,
      and afterward you will take me into glory.
      25 Whom have I in heaven but you?
      And earth has nothing I desire besides you.
      26 My flesh and my heart may fail,
      but God is the strength of my heart
      and my portion forever.

      27 Those who are far from you will perish;
      you destroy all who are unfaithful to you.
      28 But as for me, it is good to be near God.
      I have made the Sovereign LORD my refuge;
      I will tell of all your deeds.

    55. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 11:50 am

      “We bear the reproach He took upon himself outside the camp of Moses ways.” – Jabez

      There appears to be a dissonance between that statement and Jesus’ words:

      John 5:46
      “If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

      Jabez, I now think you were right to explain that the Law of Moses is different from the Ten Commandments, though the average person would consider the ten to be a part of that law. I found this link helpful to understanding that difference:


    56. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:05 pm

      Without a knowledge of what is sin, we can sin without knowing. This is why the foundational knowledge of what God approves and doesn’t is important.

      For people to claim we don’t need that is to dismiss centuries of God’s teachings within the Israelite community, where they were written down for the benefit of the whole human race.

      Is that not so?

    57. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:09 pm

      “There is a way which seems right to a man and appears straight before him, but at the end of it is the way of death.”

      Proverbs 14:12

    58. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:28 pm

      When I was sinning, I did so without the knowledge of God’s law. It was common to hear preachers argue away the Old Testament as if it no longer applied. Some even said you don’t need the Old at all! Just use the New Testament, it’s all you need, they said. On top of that, popular social movements were crying, “If it feels right, do it!” Well, things can “feel right” and yet be wrong, as Proverbs 14:12 so wisely warns.

      Ultimately, I learned from the negative consequences of my actions. When I came to faith in God, and finally read the Ten, I understood clearly why it’s good to hold fast to them. Why is this argued away today? It’s important to know God’s boundaries.

      Of course, we don’t stop there — the New Testament springs from that foundation. It’s just wrong to take a hammer to that foundation. It is to partake of the general misunderstanding of Paul, as well. Jesus’ words were far clearer than Paul’s, and ultimately matter more, but even studying Paul carefully, I see he did not argue for lawlessness.

    59. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:31 pm

      So I’ll ask again of this community, what does it mean to sin?

    60. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 12:40 pm
    61. Bo
      November 28th, 2010 @ 1:40 pm

      I was studying the Hebrew words that are translated backsliding and ran across this passage. The translators did not use the word backslide here, but it is the same Hebrew word translated backslide previously in Jeremiah.

      Jeremiah 50
      6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away (caused them to backslide) on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

      Matthew 24
      10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
      11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
      12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
      13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

      Jeremiah 2
      8 The priests said not, Where is the LORD? and they that handle the law knew me not: the pastors also transgressed against me, and the prophets prophesied by Baal, and walked after things that do not profit.

      But there is no backsliding and cold love if we have YHWH’s law written on our hearts. If we love His word we cannot be made to stumble/be offended.

      Psalm 119
      165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
      166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
      167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
      168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

      Nothing shall cause them to be offended, who love YHWH’s law (have it written on their heart).

      Here is another passage that is insightful:

      Hosea 14
      4 I will heal their backsliding, I will love them freely: for mine anger is turned away from him.
      5 I will be as the dew unto Israel: he shall grow as the lily, and cast forth his roots as Lebanon.
      6 His branches shall spread, and his beauty shall be as the olive tree, and his smell as Lebanon.
      7 They that dwell under his shadow shall return; they shall revive as the corn, and grow as the vine: the scent thereof shall be as the wine of Lebanon.
      8 Ephraim shall say, What have I to do any more with idols? I have heard him, and observed him: I am like a green fir tree. From me is thy fruit found.
      9 Who is wise, and he shall understand these things? prudent, and he shall know them? for the ways of the LORD are right, and the just shall walk in them: but the transgressors shall fall therein.

      Who is wise? Are we, if we do not agree that the ways of YHWH are right? Those who are truly just will walk in YHWH’s judgments. Those that transgress YHWH’s law will stumble and fall…backslide.

      Here is another passage that is used out of context most of the time.

      Isaiah 28
      9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
      10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
      11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
      12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
      13 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
      14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
      15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

      It is not a good thing to just mosey along just getting a little bit more at a time. It shows that we are acting like babies that have to be nursed along. We should be teachers by now. If we continue to “grow” at this retarded pace of “here a little and there a little” we will fall backwards, and be snared and taken. Scorning YHWH’s law and making a covenant with death will ruin us.

      Deuteronomy 30
      14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.
      15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
      16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply:…

      Is His worrd in our hearts, or have we made lies our refuge? Do we think that we can make a covenant with death and evil so that we can disobey YHWH and get away with it? Do we think that we can forget YHWH’s law and remain His priests?

      Hosea 4
      6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
      7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.
      8 They eat up the sin of my people, and they set their heart on their iniquity.
      9 And there shall be, like people, like priest: and I will punish them for their ways, and reward them their doings.

      What can we do if we find out that we have been tricked? What can we do if the shepherds/pastors/prophets have taught us lies? Turn back to YHWH…the opposite of backsliding.

      Jeremiah 14
      7 O LORD, though our iniquities (Lawless actions) testify against us, do thou it for thy name’s sake: for our backslidings are many; we have sinned (transgressed) against thee.

      1 John 1
      9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

      1 John 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin:…

      1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

      Let’s stop putting stumbling blocks of transgression and lawlessness before our faces and asking our shepherds, prophets, pastors and priests to tickle our ears. YHWH wants to be our Elohim…He wants us to be His people.

      Ezekiel 14
      6 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations.
      7 For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the LORD will answer him by myself:
      8 And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
      9 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel.
      10 And they shall bear the punishment of their iniquity: the punishment of the prophet shall be even as the punishment of him that seeketh unto him;
      11 That the house of Israel may go no more astray from me, neither be polluted any more with all their transgressions; but that they may be my people, and I may be their God, saith the Lord GOD.

      It is time to come out.

      2 Corinthians 6:17-7:1
      17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,
      18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.
      1 Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

      Revelation 18
      4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
      5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.


    62. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 28th, 2010 @ 2:12 pm


      Thanks for your post. So, what do you think we need to “come out” from? Do you have anything specific in mind?

      Again, thanks for the Scripture-rich post.

    63. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 2:58 pm

      A perfect example of backsliding in the NT is in Luke 15:11-32. The Parable of the Lost Son.

    64. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 3:01 pm

      I’ll answer your question. what does it mean to sin?

      my answer…Anything that breaks the Lord’s heart.

    65. Sheila
      November 28th, 2010 @ 4:32 pm

      I have only this to add, and then, I’m moving on from blogging here.


      When you make a broad statement including me as being “one of those people” who said: “People assuming that if you observe a Day, that this must mean the rest of the week you’re cut off from the Source of Life is quite hurtful, too.”–then you have misrepresented me and it is your presumption that is misleading. That was never my belief, nor, was it implied in any of my posts concerning the Sabbath.

      This is an outline of our various posts, where, I hope you can see that I agreed with your comments, while holding to what the Apostles outlined for Gentiles. I have in no way judged you for keeping the Sabbath, it seems the opposite is true, that you are judging me for making everyday a day of worship, and stating that it is impossible to do, while you made many similar statements yourself.

      November 21st, 2010

      Concerning the Sabbath. The Goyim had no tradition whatsoever concerning a sabbath. And Paul does, in fact, address this when he tells them: Col 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a sabbath. Col 2:17 These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

      November 21st, 2010 @ 9:32 am

      Rom 14:5 One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.
      Rom 14:6 He who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. He also who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God; while he who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

      So, the Gentiles having no tradition of a Sabbath, were exhorted to live everyday for the Lord. To honor God in all things, rather than one particular day, which is also what we see in some lukewarm Christians today. They go to church and then forget who it is they serve the rest of the week.
      November 21st, 2010 @ 9:25 am

      I’m glad for this forum and the way we can bounce thoughts off of each other. Ultimately, we walk alone before God and must do that which we feel He is leading us to do, in accordance with His Spirit and His written word, both past and present.Ruth

      November 21st, 2010 @ 6:15 pm

      You wrote the following, to which I agreed:

      “The commandments haven’t changed. What has is that we have an ally in the indwelling Spirit of the Lord, enabling us to walk with Him, in accordance with His will, in a way that is deeply personal to each one of us.”

      [To which I wrote on Nov. 27, "We all have our own walk that He walks with us!" ] I don’t see much difference in what we each wrote.


      November 21st, 2010 @ 10:46 pm
      “We worship the Lord daily in spirit and in truth,”

      [So, maybe I'm not the only one who "tunes in daily" afterall.]


      November 22nd, 2010 @ 2:40 pm
      “Everything that might be assumed or attached to my presumed viewpoint (such as that I would also argue for circumcision) is merely that — presumptions others have added.”


      November 22nd, 2010 @ 10:09 pm
      But it is a matter of conscience and the leading of the Spirit. I do agree that it’s not necessary for Salvation.
      God calls everyone to Him, because its His will that no one perish. We will feel that calling and leading in individual ways, to be sure.


      November 23rd, 2010 @ 12:37 am
      I don’t want to repeat myself, but (again) I am not claiming it necessary for Salvation. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind, indeed, “because the way we worship God truly is privately in the depths of our being.”
      If you choose to honor God on Tuesday, that is a matter between you and God. If I choose the Sabbath Day, that is a matter between me and God. I am arguing for it, yes, because God Himself created that special day, not I.
      “Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.” I am. I am not your judge, you are not mine. If you are convinced that the Sabbath is superfluous to you, you do so before your one and only judge, Who alone can gainsay you. If you call the Sabbath a “delight”, again, you do so before your one and only judge.

      [I do not believe that "resting in the Lord" is superfluous; just the opposite--it is the most needful thing of all.]


      November 23rd, 2010 @ 3:07 pm
      And of course, the idea was never to merely seek Him “only on one day.”

      “If we keep the Sabbath Day in spirit and truth, this IN NO WAY implies that the rest of the week we’re not to be led, guided, nourished or helped by Him.”

      “Do we not need Him hourly? Is there a moment in which we do NOT need our Father’s love and guidance?”

      [To which I replied on Saturday, "That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.]


      November 23rd, 2010 @ 6:54 pm
      We are not saved by keeping the Sabbath. We are saved by the mercy of God, evidenced in the blood of the Lamb, who was slain for the sins of the whole world.
      But keeping God’s commandments is still good. We are not saved by our good works, but what? Shall we not do any more good works, then? Of course not.
      Nonetheless, only His mercy can save us. That is Grace. But His grace is NOT a license to sin.


      November 24th, 2010 @ 5:13 am
      Your expositon on the Lord’s emphasis of mercy taking precedence over burdensome and trivial interpretations that were added by the Pharisees and others’s own initiative is exactly what He meant to teach and I agree with you on that. The fact that “The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath”, is further proof that all things were delivered to Him by the Father. He came as sent by the Father to fulfill all righteousness, to bind up those who were bruised, to heal the sick, to gather the outcasts and to proclaim liberty to the captives. The Lord not only judged what was obvious, but, only He can discern the hearts of all men and He laid them bear, much to their indignation. In pointing out that the Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath, He was further pointing out that God, in His mercy ordained a rest for us, which will find it’s ultimate fulfillment in the establishment of the Kingdom to come.

      Hbr 4:4 For he has in a certain place spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” Hbr 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God has from his.” To say, then, that we cease from our own works, is not saying that we cease doing good, or, that we negate the other commandments which are an extention of the first two as outlined by the Lord, but that out of gratitude and love we now willingly do the works that we learned from Christ. Not that it is a licence to sin, but, that it is freedom to serve the Lord in all things, everyday, and that there is now no condemnation for those in Christ. “Who will lay anything to the charge of God’s elect, it is God who justifies.”

      So, the Lord “resting” on the Sabbath day in the grave, is again saying, that “He has finished His work”. We, who have died to ourselves together with Christ, resting in His finished work, are to now live for Him, waiting on His promise that this sinful flesh which clothes our present bodies will be changed into incorruptible and immortal bodies like His in fulfillment of His resurrection which we will partake of when He comes to redeem us.

      So, [and I used the specific word], PERHAPS the Sabbath day that we are to keep holy is the day Christ “rested in the grave” for us, that would be honoring the Holy Day of Passover.

      This is “HOW I UNDERSTAND” the Sabbath and keeping it holy, while looking for a more glorious Sabbath to come.

      [I am not saying that this is how "you" too, should understand the Sabbath.]
      I don’t see condemnation of anyone when I explained my understanding of being free to keep the Sabbath or not. I agree as stated, that: Rom 14:5 “One man esteems one day as better than another, while another man esteems all days alike. Let every one be fully convinced in his own mind.”


      November 26th, 2010 @ 1:44 am
      I think a lot of reasons people backslide is because they get caught up in persuing the things of this world, whether acquiring material possessions, or, focusing on getting ahead in their jobs, and they don’t remain focused on the things of God and the Kingdom. They focus on immediate needs, and desires, having lost the art of patience and self denial, as this is what advertisers have programmed them to do. The advertising industry is operating on the findings of the Doctors of Psychiatry who understand human nature perfectly and they taylor the selling of their products specifically to prey on our fallen state, and the desires of fulfilling the lusts of the flesh. It is so very difficult in this modern age to stay focused on the Lord in our everyday lives. Another reason is, in the real world of work and of being thrown together with those who are not like minded, we naturally have to associate with those who walk contrary to Him. Backsliding is most often a subtle process that happens one degree at a time. The things that influence us when we loose focus on God, seem to move Him further and further to the back of the mind, until we no longer recognize how distorted our thoughts and actions have become, in light of what they once were. We have silenced the Spirit that once convicted us to such an extent that we no longer even hear His voice.
      The major reason, in my observation, is that those most apt to backslide don’t continue in the word, or, in prayer on a daily basis. If we are not spending time in the scriptures then we are not being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him, and our eye is singular. Thank God if we recognize how far we have removed ourselves in time to recover.


      November 26th, 2010 @ 9:58 pm
      Not that I’m introducing the topic again, Sheila, from an earlier thread…but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment. The world is always whirring about us, seeking, sometimes demanding, our attention. It’s so nice to turn it way, way down, and turn away from the everyday world and tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself. Ahhhh…refreshing…


      November 27th, 2010 @ 8:53 am

      [I foolishly thought when you said, "but what you wrote about is exactly why I like keeping the 4th Commandment", that you were referring to this: "being renewed by the true bread of life and the most important sustenance we can partake of. When we study and reflect on God’s word, we are remaining in Him,"]

      And I responded in a spirit of jovial comraderie, not facetiously, when I agreed by saying:

      You’re so, so right! “tune in a more spiritual station: our Lord Himself.”
      That’s my favorite station too! I listen to it all the time.”

      I feel that your response was not only completely over the top, but, was undeserved as well. I’ve treated you with only respect and I don’t understand your contempt at all. If you can show inconsistency in what I’ve written, please do so. Whether you agree, or, not, I have been consistent.

    66. Debbie Fraser
      November 28th, 2010 @ 5:14 pm

      Sheila Are you going to leave this place? Don’t do it. I thought you and Ruth are friends. Do not leave. Remember we are all part of the body of Christ.

    67. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 28th, 2010 @ 7:30 pm

      Hey folks,

      How about everyone stepping higher and dealing with relevant ISSUES rather than dealing with EACH OTHER?

    68. Ruth
      November 28th, 2010 @ 9:32 pm

      Sheila, I certainly never intended to “cut you very deeply” as you wrote.

      My only issue with what you wrote concerned the idea of being “always” tuned in to the Lord, which you posted in response to my response to your post about how the world is always pulling us away from Him.

      We agree that the world does that. Can we also agree that we can’t “always” be tuned in, either? The times when we pray, and turn to Him particularly — basically clearing time for that — are so fruitful because typically, our minds are pulled, through various distractions, in directions away from His Spirit…by sometimes necessary, mundane realities, and sometimes by our choice of, for example, forms of entertainment.

      Again, my only issue was with your word “always” — and that was because after I posted about creating time for Him (which is how I see the Sabbath) you followed with the statement that you’re (essentially) “always” listening to Him. I did treat that with sarcasm, true, because I don’t believe that anyone is “always” tuning in to the Lord. We’re all too human, and realistically, sometimes we’re tuned in to common, ordinary realities. That these efforts wind up taking up so much of our time is why I think the Sabbath is a good idea. When we’re tuned into mundane realities also doesn’t mean that we’re not still connected to the Vine or that we’re somehow cut off from His love, etc., just that we could give Him more and better quality time.

      Had I known you would take my post so much to heart, I would have kept my sarcasm to myself. Please believe me, I never wanted to hurt you, EVER! and I didn’t realize it would “cut you deeply” at all.

      If you leave off blogging here, please don’t let it be because of me! In fact, I’m trying to discipline myself to blog less in general.

      With all due respect, you’ve read far more into my post than I ever intended for you to. As fellow believers, I know that we actually stand on far more common ground than not.

      I know that if we were to have had that exchange personally, face to face, it would have gotten quickly resolved. You would have read my tone of voice, etc., and I would have read yours, and even if we didn’t see eye-to-eye ultimately, it wouldn’t have mushroomed for either of us, I’m pretty sure of that.

      I don’t know you personally at all, Sheila, but I have enjoyed reading many of your thoughtful posts, and I think it would be unfortunate for this forum for your participation to end because of this misunderstanding.

      I hope you’ll reconsider your decision.


    69. Ruth
      November 29th, 2010 @ 2:21 am

      Debbie, I like your definition of sin.

    70. Jabez H.
      November 29th, 2010 @ 5:29 am


      Thanks for your persistence. You were correct in reflecting that I do not consider the 10 Commandments the ten options. These are the basis for all moral law, including what Paul wrote about days and a day and conscience for such dedication to honor the Lord by those of the Nes and the Old persuasion (Mt. 13:52, which was given the close disciples by the Lord prior to their conversion and receipt of the promise).

      Please recall that I also wrote “If one is concerned with a taxonomy of sin, as with what are the commandments one is to obey, it all refers to what Jesus Mediated, as a better Covenant. Certainly lists of sins are given by the New Covenant writers, as such. Honor and Glory be His”.

      Studies have been done on both the lists of Moses, in essence, and the lists of Jesus and the Aposles and letter writers, in essence. These do uphold the 10 Commandments, with the qualifiers of Paul’s statements, and the letter writers and those of the Acts 15 Church Council.

      Recall too, that in addtion to what we now hold as being the New Testament, we also have Church history, and the history of the Land and the People of the Book, now covering some thousands of years. We are told by Paul to “avoid controversies and disputable issues”, in order to continue with the love we first received, that it not be abandoned.

      There is nothing lost in examining what is sin, as long as it is couched in the provisions of Jesus the Messiah regarding the whole issue of sin, sins, and sinning. He came into the world not to condemn the world, but to redeem children from the world.

      Chuck wrote something last about the Kingdom of God being the preaching of the Lord, and this is so, with the addition by the Aspostles of the Message of its King and our King’s finished accomplishments (which Jesus did not assert until completed, and so did not really advance until after their accomplishment regarding sin). The Gospel mentioned of Acts, and of Paul was, after all asserted after the receipt of the Promise by its conveyors.

      It is good to practice spritual disciplines, if that includes a day’s observation by anyone, so dedicated to honor the Lord, that is worthy of respect. What the Lord did to maintain his own devotion and listening to the Father while pressured on many fronts is also worth remarking, and practicing, so that the Lord Himself can be restored to His position of our first and primary teacher. “This is my beloved Son, hear you Him”.

    71. Jabez H.
      November 29th, 2010 @ 5:40 am


      Thank you for other discussions remarked both ways along the Way. You seem to have an open wound which needs some salve, and its healing, to practice what is not to be taken personally, and what is in the Lord.

      I would strongly recommend the workbook and book
      “Changes that Heal” by Cloud and Townsend. In addition to its essential message of ruth and grace, I wish us all to be kind to one another, admonishing one another out of love, not out of pain. Michael Brown’s teaching and insights offer the heart of a Pastor with the insights of scholarship, and his own “Church History” covering many phenomena of observing the works of truth and grace among various visitations by the Spirit of God.

      Where the Spirit of the Lord is their is liberty, and the salve I mention. Mercy, grace, and peace be to all of us interchanging hereby.

    72. Ruth
      November 29th, 2010 @ 11:05 am

      Thank you, Jabez, for your fine reflections.

      I agree that we do need to be kind to one another, and I do regret that I did not display kindness (but sarcasm) in my post to my sister in the Lord, Sheila, to the unfortunate result we see. Taking things too personally is also something I need to be aware of. I like frankness, but it does need to be tempered with “as you would have done to you” and I failed at that yesterday.

      But — today is a new day and I hope all can be forgiven.

      Sheila, if you read this, please forgive me…


    73. Sheila
      November 29th, 2010 @ 11:25 am

      To all my brothers and sisters,

      This is the thing. I am obviously not like other people. Because I know I have a tender heart, I am more sensitive to the heart of others and to their feelings and I am quick to ask for forgiveness and to forgive others. I endeavor always to think before I respond to any posts. That’s why it takes me forever to submit anything lengthy. To speak anything unkind is not the norm for me, and perhaps that’s why I feel the sting of it more readily when it’s directed at me. When I feel I have offended any, I move quickly to correct it. Can I argue my position deliberately and concisely? I think I can. But, I cannot apologize for having a soft heart, it’s the only one I have and I didn’t make it that way, it comes naturally. I used to let people walk all over me, much to my detriment. Perhaps that’s why I take the cause of the underdog to myself, and I am there to defend and lift up those that are trodden down by others, or, those others dismiss as being lesser than themselves. I’m not saying I’m perfect, I know better than anyone else I’m not, nor, is anyone else on this side of eternity. I do know I’m not vain, I’m not selfish, I’m not deliberately unkind to others. Isn’t this what we’re called to be? Isn’t this what the Lord asked of us? Isn’t that part of our Christian calling from Him? I take my walk with the Lord very seriously. I am still a work in progress, as we all are. I am, though, baffled sometimes by the motivation of others who are quick to point out the slightest error of another, especially now that I know it was over “one misused word”, for Pete’s sake. And it was spoken by me in, what I thought was, a comical way. I guess my sense of humor was off that day. I did add a “smiley guy” to show my jest. Alas, he was no help that time. And I should certainly have let the next pass also. I felt it was directed at me, but, apparently not. I was overly defensive for sure and I stand convicted for doing exactly what I speak against. I’ll need to explain my frame of mind at the time. Although it is no excuse.

      We lost our sister, Shari, to a sudden heart attack, and her birthday fell on Thanksgiving day this year. Or would have. So, the “pain” you pointed out, Jay, was indeed quite near and still fresh in our hearts, especially mine, as my mother in law sometimes calls me by her name. I apologize to everyone. To you, Ruth, and to you, Jay, and to you, Dr. Brown. In fact, to all who read these exchanges.

      Please forgive me, I’m so ashamed of myself. You have no idea how much!

    74. Sheila
      November 29th, 2010 @ 11:44 am

      As usual, it took me over an hour to write my previous entry, so, I didn’t see yours, Ruth, until I submitted mine. With tears, I declare I had already forgiven you. Please forgive me. I don’t want to lose anyone of you.

    75. Ruth
      November 29th, 2010 @ 12:17 pm

      Sheila, you do have a wonderfully tender heart. Thank you for forgiving me!

      Love in Him,

      :) I remember when you showed me how to make smiley guy!

    76. Debbie Fraser
      November 29th, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

      I’m glad Sheila you will continue to fellowship with us all. Peace is good. I know what you mean I also am very sensitive too.

      Thank you Ruth for your post to me. May the Lord bless you.

      Thank you Lord for restoration. Lets us all strive to be a walking bible for this dark world we live in to see the Lord in us all.

    77. Sheila
      November 29th, 2010 @ 12:35 pm

      A great burden has been lifted from my soul.

      Thank you, Ruth for forgiving me as well! I remember the day of smiley guy too!

      Thanks, Debbie, you’re a real trooper!

      The Lord has been magnified this day!

    78. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 2:46 pm

      Jeremiah 8
      5 Why then is this people of Jerusalem slidden back by a perpetual backsliding? they hold fast deceit, they refuse to return.

      James 1
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      Below are the details of Israel’s backsliding. Will we refuse to return also? Judah refused to learn from the “things that were written afore time”…will we?

      2 Kings 17:7-23 with application:

      7 For so it was, that the children of Israel had sinned against the LORD their God, which had brought them up out of the land of Egypt, from under the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and had feared other gods, (We have been set free from the bondage of sin. Sin is the transgression of YHWH’s Torah. We think, now, that it is not sin to disobey the law that we had broken before which created the necessity our Savior’s blood being spilt. We do despite to the Spirit of grace when we sin willfully. We should not continue to sin, just because we are under grace. But we have been deceived by false prophets into thinking that YHWH’s word is not for us.)

      8 And walked in the statutes of the heathen, whom the LORD cast out from before the children of Israel, and of the kings of Israel, which they had made. (The acceptable Christian holidays are renamed or reinterpreted pagan feast days, but YHWH’s feasts are considered “going back under the law.” Tithing money is not to found in scripture, but the god of mammon asks for more than just food stuff. The scripture states that debt is a curse and children are a blessing. Do we practice scripture or the ideas of the heathen around us? We use birth control so we can have more money to service our debt. Divorce and remarriage is acceptable now, but YHWH is still a witness between you and the wife of your youth. Makeup, enhancments, tattoos and piercings are now acceptable along with pagan priest beard styles. YHWH asks us to leave His creation (our bodies) the way He made them. And we send our children off to be taught the heathen’s statutes by pagans, instead of taking the responsibility upon ourselves to teach them…and we wonder why our children turn away from the faith in droves.)

      9 And the children of Israel did secretly those things that were not right against the LORD their God, and they built them high places in all their cities, from the tower of the watchmen to the fenced city. (Steeples are phallic symbols, the Washington monument is the biggest one.)

      10 And they set them up images and groves in every high hill, and under every green tree: (Images….Evergreen trees, eggs and bunnies are fertility symbols also. Is there any symbol in the so called “Christian holidays” that is not pagan fertility worship?)

      11 And there they burnt incense in all the high places, as did the heathen whom the LORD carried away before them; and wrought wicked things to provoke the LORD to anger: (Incense, a type of prayer and praise, is offered to the demigods of our society in every sports arena. It is also offered in the buildings with the phallic symbols above their roofs. It is even the same smell/sound as the heathen’s incense/music. It is offered in as a pleasing aroma to the young and worldly so that they will feel comfortable and/or invigorated in our church “serve us.” Is it really the kind of incense/praise that is acceptable to YHWH? Mostly it is offered in ignorance because the statutes of YHWH have been banned from discussion.)

      To be continued below.

    79. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

      Continued from above.

      12 For they served idols, whereof the LORD had said unto them, Ye shall not do this thing. (We have been warned also.)

      13 Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets. (Y’Shua, James, John, Peter, and Paul all proclaim that we should be keeping YHWH’s commandments.)

      14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God. (Do we have good excuses as to why we do not have to continue to obey YHWH’s word? “It is a different day and age.” “It is a different dispensation.” “Those laws are for a different people.” “Those are Jewish feasts.” “WWJD bracelets are the NT replacement of tassels.” “Holy means something different now.” “We are free in Christ.” I do not think that we are free to continue sinning.)

      15 And they rejected his statutes, and his covenant that he made with their fathers, and his testimonies which he testified against them; and they followed vanity, and became vain, and went after the heathen that were round about them, concerning whom the LORD had charged them, that they should not do like them. (We reject His perfect law. We reject the part of the new covenant where YHWH’s law is written on our hearts. We only want the forgiveness clause. “But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.” “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.” But somehow, our darkened hearts still think that we are doing all that YHWH has commanded…when there are obvious bleatings and lowings coming from the undone commandments. (1 Sam. 15:13-23) “To obey is better than sacrifice.”)

      16 And they left all the commandments of the LORD their God, and made them molten images, even two calves, and made a grove, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served Baal. (Strange that we have replaced YHWH’s name with “the LORD.” That is what Baal’s name means. We say “Lord, Lord.” If we are not obeying YHWH’s commandments, who is our lord? Many will be told, “Depart from me I never knew you.)

      17 And they caused their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire, and used divination and enchantments, and sold themselves to do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger. (And there are “believers” having abortions too. And just the other day (from a woman writing into a Line of Fire forum) I heard of a new teaching that we can communicate with dead evangelists and have them pass their anointings on to us.)

      18 Therefore the LORD was very angry with Israel, and removed them out of his sight: there was none left but the tribe of Judah only. (And we think that YHWH is not angry with us…because we are free from the law now. We think we are immune from the disease of lawlessness because we have been inoculated with grace. Strange how all the symptoms are being displayed, but we do not think that we are sick.)

      19 Also Judah kept not the commandments of the LORD their God, but walked in the statutes of Israel which they made. (And we are passing the disease on to those around us.)

      To be continued below.

    80. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 2:47 pm

      Continued from above.

      20 And the LORD rejected all the seed of Israel, and afflicted them, and delivered them into the hand of spoilers, until he had cast them out of his sight. (And we wonder why a majority of our young people fall away from the faith. The spoilers are upon us.)

      21 For he rent Israel from the house of David; and they made Jeroboam the son of Nebat king: and Jeroboam drave Israel from following the LORD, and made them sin a great sin. (A great sin. “…because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:” “…God gave them over to a reprobate mind…” “The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple. The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward. Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults. Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.”(Ps. 19:7-14) The great sin/transgression…can we continue to remain innocent of it if we fail to accept YHWH’s perfect law?)

      22 For the children of Israel walked in all the sins of Jeroboam which he did; they departed not from them; (The sins of Jeroboam are: changing YHWH’s feast days, setting up idols, and making a false priesthood from the lowest of people. There have been a lot of revelations lately about our preachers and priests. Covetousness is idolatry…according to Paul. Living a life full of luxury on payments just might be covetousness. And we already know that the Church has invented its own feast days by adopting the heathen’s customs and statutes. The Church has not, of late, departed from these sins of Jeroboam.)

      23 Until the LORD removed Israel out of his sight, as he had said by all his servants the prophets. So was Israel carried away out of their own land to Assyria unto this day. (Where are we headed?)

      If the “Church” will not return to YHWH, we are called to come out of her so that we will not partake in her judgments. Though it is difficult, Lot’s wife serves as a reminder to us all. The kingdom has been corrupted. Evil spirits nest in its branches. The whole lump has become leavened with the doctrines of men that set aside YHWH’s commandments.

      There is no example in history of the established “Church” repenting from its backsliding on a large scale. There are examples of revival/repentance coming to great numbers of individuals, though. The people of Israel refused to return and departed not from the sins of Jeroboam. What will we do.

      YHWH is calling the outcasts of Israel from all the nations that they have been scattered into. All the nations of the earth will be blessed because of Abraham. There is a remnant that will return unto YHWH. Sadly, the broad road will continue to direct its travelers toward destruction. We have a choice.


    81. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 29th, 2010 @ 2:52 pm


      Since only God knows those who are His, and since Jesus promised to build His ekklesia so that the gates of hell could not prevail against it, and since Revelation 7 speaks of a multitude of souls that cannot be numbered, all of whom are part of His Body, do you see the danger of making broad, sweeping statements about “the established ‘Church’”?

    82. Jabez H.
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:03 pm

      Moving away from completed interpersonal transactions among those of our faith, I want to pick back up the inquiry of Ruth. There are actually more “commandments” in the New Testament than the Old, since the higher standard of the New and Living Way, or Perfect Law of Liberty, was raised by Jesus. If anything, the New Testament writings present a contrast to those who believed at the time that they were keeping the law’s requirements (at least as the Lord put it, for others to see).

      I think of three passages which are excellent for memorization and meditation. The More Excellent
      Way (love is passage); the Wisdom from Above; and the Fruit of the Spirit–against which there is no law. In other words, when practicing these one is most likely not to be sinning or operating from a Sin nature.

      Does anyone else have positive New Covenant passages that help keep them on track?

    83. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:12 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      I think I understand the danger. Is there more danger in allowing our brothers to continue in sin? Or in healing “the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly, saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace”?

      Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an “established church/church system”? It is a recognizable entity of some kind, don’t you think?

      The gates of hell are what hold hell’s inhabitants in bondage. Gates are not some kind of offensive weapon. The ekklesia has all the power necessary to rescue those in bondage in hell.

      The danger to the ekklesia is from the inside, as is expressed throughout the whole of scripture.(The doctrines of Balaam, Jezebel and the Nicolaitains come to mind along with the root that bears gall and wormwood/root of bitterness whereby many are defiled.) The ekklesia does not equal the established church system. There evidently are those of the ekklesia that are called to come out of her (Babylon)

      As far as the uncountable number that no single man can count…according to secular sources that do not take the youngness of the earth into consideration,the total number of humans throughout history is about100 billion. If the remnant is 1%, that would be 1 billion. Counting one per second for 12 hours a day, it would take about 63 years and 5 months to count this small percentage of humanity. So a really good counter that could work 12 hours a day from birth to death throughout a long life could only count 1.5 % of the total population of the evolutionary envisioned earth. The total population is quite a bit less taking biblical chronology into account. (Probably only 50% or less.)

      Do you think that John was expressing that 100 years of counting would not be long enough to count the multitude? What about just 1 whole year?

      I think it is more likely that John was expressing less people than even the 1 %…as a crowd of people numbering 100 million (1/10 of 1 %) would be about 40 times larger than the crowd that came out of Egypt, and that crowd was idiomatically said to be more than the stars in multitude.

      If Moses’s blessing of 1000 times larger than 2.5 million were to be realized, we would end up with 2.5 billion (only 2.5 % of everyone that had ever been born) in the crowd that John saw. Now that would surely be uncountable, but I do not think that a study of the history of all the faithful would approach this number. Idiomatic expressions of numbers are difficult to quantify, don’t you think?

      In all of this, we know that only a remnant will be saved. The last time I had a remnant of something, it was a very small percentage of the whole. I think that it might be possible for a tithe of a tithe to be part of the bride, but that still seems like a big remnant…to me. Maybe the idiomatic sand of the sea is more than the idiomatic stars of the heavens. And yes, only YHWH knows for sure.

      Isaiah 10
      22 For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return…

      Also, those that do not come out of Babylon, whoever she is, will not necessarily be damned. It says that they will experience her plagues. Do you think that the established church is not experiencing plagues…or at least will not?

      Why is the divorce rate the same in the established church as it is in the whole population? Why do church goers think that it is acceptable to remarry with their divorced spouse still living? Why are the young people not continuing in the faith of their parents? Why are denomination after denomination accepting homosexuals into the clergy? How many whys do you want me to mention?


    84. Jabez H.
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:23 pm

      2 Corinthians 1:20: all of God’s promises are “Yes” and “Amen” are founded in Christ. Jesus is the mediator between the Father and ourselves.

      The First of Nations has a present day challenge to return to the antidote for attempting to achieve acceptance in the beloved by mankind’s own works. How much more will their inclusion be once this realization occurs. What is the present day merciful Plan of God in regard to redemption of them or anyone stuck in the World system of meaning and value? How does the book of Acts state faith and obedience will come to those presently bound in sin?

      What was given to “the Jew first”, and the “Greek also”? What then has been and will be the solution to the problem of sin?

    85. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:45 pm

      A circumcised heart would fix the problem of sin…no?

    86. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:46 pm

      YHWH’s law written on our hearts…no?

    87. Ruth
      November 29th, 2010 @ 6:52 pm

      Jabez, to answer your question, this New Covenant teaching resonates for me:

      Jesus (Yeshua/Lord) distilled (not abolished!) all Ten in the two upon which He stated “hang all the law and the prophets.” Matthew 22:34-40. That is, “Love YHWH your God with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself.”

      God: Commandments 1,2,3 & 4
      (Specifically pertaining)
      Humanity/Our Neighbor:
      Commandments 5,6,7,8,9 & 10
      (Specifically pertaining)

      So someone might say, “Well, I don’t commit adultery. To commit is to do; it implies an action, and I am faithful to my wife.” Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) would get to the heart of the matter and remind that if you’ve thought of it, if you’ve dreamed of it, it is as if you’ve done it, so, Lesson here: we must guard our very thoughts, the very wellspring of action. If we’ve sinned with these parts (heart, mind, soul, and strength) which are to be devoted to Him, we can repent, and if that repentance (turning back)is truly sincere, which He knows, because He sees our interior life laid bare, we can be truly forgiven and we can go forth, sinning no more.

      I love how Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) clarified everything, not complicating (as, with all due respect, the teachers of the law did).

      Praise YHWH, His Salvation lives.

    88. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 7:56 pm


      Good points.

      But He didn’t say that only the ten hang on the two. All the law and the prophets hang on the 2. The 10 hang just below the two and the all the others hang below the ten. The two are a summary so to speak of the 10 and the 10 are a summary of the rest. If we do the 2 correctly we fulfill the ten. Which in turn, being done correctly fulfills the rest. The least commandments are supplied for definition of the 10. The 10 are supplied for definition of the 2.

      It is not correct to say that we are keeping the 2 or ten if we are breaking the least. It is not correct to say that we are keeping the rest if we are claiming to keep the two, while actually breaking the others.


    89. Bo
      November 29th, 2010 @ 8:00 pm

      Of course the point could be made for some commandments not actually hanging on the 10…in which we would have to say that they also hang directly on the 2.

    90. Jabez H.
      November 29th, 2010 @ 10:34 pm

      Not discounting, or affirming your founded answers. He is our Master, Rabboni. He is the anointed One. He is the chosen sacrifice. He is the King of Kings; He will Return. What are his exact words on the questions? What are Paul’s? Peter’s? James’? and John’s?

    91. Ruth
      November 29th, 2010 @ 11:41 pm

      Romans 5 and 6 are very appropriate to this discussion.

      Printing here for the sake of convenience:

      “Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

      Not only so, but we also rejoice in our sufferings, because we know that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; and character, hope. And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us.

      You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

      Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

      Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned — for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come.

      But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification.

      For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ.

      Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

      he law was added so that the trespass might increase. But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

      Romans 6

      What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? Or don’t you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

      If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin — because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

      Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. For we know that since Christ was raised from the dead, he cannot die again; death no longer has mastery over him. The death he died, he died to sin once for all; but the life he lives, he lives to God.

      In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its evil desires. Do not offer the parts of your body to sin, as instruments of wickedness, but rather offer yourselves to God, as those who have been brought from death to life; and offer the parts of your body to him as instruments of righteousness. For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.

      What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Don’t you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey — whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?

      But thanks be to God that, though you used to be slaves to sin, you wholeheartedly obeyed the form of teaching to which you were entrusted. You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.

      I put this in human terms because you are weak in your natural selves. Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness.

      When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of ? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”


      Now that Hanukkah is approaching, I read something inspiring recently around the idea of how this time could be especially meaningful for Christians as well when seeing it as a time to rededicate our temples of the Holy Spirit, that is our bodies, to our Lord.
      Beautiful thought…!

    92. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2010 @ 12:28 am


      You ask, “Do you think that Babylon the great harlot is something other than an ‘established church/church system’”?

      Certainly! There are many plausible views as to the identity of Babylon in Revelation.

      That being said, what you’re missing — in terms of the danger — is that you claim to be able to identify the “established church/church system,” without clear biblical parameters. How do you know that you are not part of that system? Where exactly does one draw the line?

      Once you recognize the danger clearly, you can do a better job of raising your concerns — although, once again, I remain deeply concerned that your “cure” is worse than the “sickness.”

    93. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 12:38 am

      Dr. Brown,

      The cure is only worse than the sickness if the end result is hell. The sickness can lead there for sure. The cure…”coming out and working out our own salvation with fear and trembling” is risky, but what of using grace as an excuse to continue in sin? Pretty risky in light of:

      Matthew 7
      21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
      22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
      23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
      24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
      25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock.
      26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand.
      27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”

      I do not suggest that one can earn his salvation. I suggest that the one that is saved ceases from transgression. I suggest that we deceive ourselves by looking into the mirror, that proclaims that we are transgressing, and fool ourselves into thinking that it is not really sin.


    94. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2010 @ 2:15 am

      Bo, I’ve watched a number of believers — Jew and Gentile — completely fall away from the Lord once their emphasis switched from the centrality of Yeshua to the centrality of Torah observance, and I will continue to sound the alarm whenever I see this tendency, since it is a matter of life or death. (And note that my central point has to do with emphasis and centrality, not potential compatibility between the two emphases.)

    95. Friendly
      November 30th, 2010 @ 2:24 am

      Dear Dr Michael Brown,

      I consider myself an Agnostic, and I believe there is a god. Just not a god as described by the Bible.

      I would say that there is no “specific” goal in mind in life, apart from that which you make it.

      For me it involves love, passion, being present in the moment and growing personally in my relationships, knowledge and experiences in the world.

    96. Ruth
      November 30th, 2010 @ 11:40 am

      Back to the discussion. From Romans 5 & 6 at least, I see Paul not actually changing the very definition of what is sin, but explaining how we can be free from it.

      “In the same way, count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” < I love that

    97. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 12:33 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      To make my stance clear…I do not advocate Torah observance being central. It is true that my posts bring obedience to the forefront. This is for the purpose of bringing a correcting word to the easy going gospel, sloppy agape, and greasy grace doctrines that have caused the love of many to wax cold. The problem with freezing to death is that it becomes painless very quickly and the danger goes unnoticed. Enduring until the end is more than giving lip service to Y’Shua.

      It is a covenant relationship we have with Him, not just a personal relationship. I know that you do not believe in once saved always saved. The body of Messiah needs to grow up. Stagnation in biblical righteousness and holiness is not growth.

      Our flesh tends to rise up and insist on false freedom. Real freedom is found in obedience. That is when YHWH can trust us rule and reign with Him. Being given an honorable place in the kingdom is not a lottery where the outcome is by random drawing. It is not granted to everyone that fills out a salvation application. Do we run around in circles saying, “Isn’t nice how saved we are!” to each other, or should we press on toward maturity…toward the fullness of the stature of Messiah.

      It is a long race, not a jog around the block. Many are going to fall away for lack of discipline. We are called to be disciples, not just believers. If we are choosing the church we go to by what we like or what we get out of it, we are far from mature disciples. By now we ought to be teachers…

      If the righteous standards of Torah would have been held up, we would not be in the mess we are in. Tattoos would not exist in the Bride of Messiah except as testimonies to repented of worldly foolishness and rebellion. ( That is the way it was just 20 years ago.) People would not come to church half dressed or with their pants half off. Just in the two simple things mentioned above, is the bride unspotted and dressed in righteousness?

      30 years ago there was an unspoken acceptance of the basic principles in Torah. Certainly, Sabbath was kept on the wrong day, but it was generally kept as a sabbath. There was a distinction between male and female. There was modest dress. There was respect for elders. Need I go on?

      Today there is a resistance to the “rules,” no matter what they are. (Head covered women and no remarriage to divorcees, anybody?) We think we are free, when in reality we are rebellious. There is a difference.

      The outcasts of Israel are beginning to be called back to YHWH. They are being stirred to love His Torah. They are having “His law” written on their hearts. They are becoming trustworthy servants that desire to hear, “Well done good and faithful servant, enter into the joy of your master.” Some are even trying to do and teach even the least commandments. They will be great in the kingdom, as Y’Shua promised.

      Our master has entrusted us with some of His treasure. Namely the Law, Prophets, Writings, and Apostolic scriptures. Burying any one of these is a travesty. Putting them all to good use and growing in righteousness and holiness is of great importance. To whom much is given, much is required. REQUIRED, not suggested.

      A covenant relationship is what we have been offered. It is a marriage contract. It is not fornication that has been offered. It is not about our pleasure. It is about the betrothed bride making herself ready for the bridegroom that has ransomed her at great cost. One would think that the bride would do her best to live up to estimation of Her Lover.

      Well, He washes with His word…His whole word…not just the the last third.


    98. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2010 @ 12:47 pm


      Once again, just as in my earliest posts to you, I warn you about exclusivism, about judging others in the Body as if they are not part of the Body, and of seeking to put a yoke on others — in particular, Gentile believers — that God did not intend for His new covenant people.

      There is a glorious holiness, a flesh-killing holiness, a God-exaltingholiness, a no-excuse holiness, made possible through the blood of Jesus and the power of the Spirit, articulated at length in the NT writings, and it is something other than that of which you speak.

      May the Lord open your eyes to see that the first two thirds of the Word (as you put it) were building up to the last third, in which everything is summed up.

      You are in error here — serious error, I repeat once more, especially with your use of the word “REQUIRED” — and it does make me question what is central in your life. Surely, if Yeshua were central to you, you would post about His glories day and night instead of almost endlessly posting arguments that all believers are obligated to observe all the Torah today.

      That, however, is between you and God, but my warnings are for you personally and for those who read here. I’ll be dropping out of this thread again, both because of my trip to India and because I’ve addressed these issues clearly enough already — but I’d encourage to take all this to the Lord, not to continue to introduce your Torah-observance-is-required-for-all views into new threads unless they are relevant, and to step back and examine your ways again.

      I write this as one who loves every syllable of God’s Word — and as one who cares for your soul, even though I have no idea who you are behind the name “Bo.”

    99. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 1:01 pm

      Dr Brown,

      Here is what I mean by REQUIRED.

      Luke 12
      42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?
      43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
      44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
      45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
      46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
      47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
      48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

      Here is what YHWH says of His Torah…I doubt that Peter would call it something that was difficult to do/unable to bear. He was likely referring to added commandments of men.

      Deuteronomy 30
      10 when you obey the voice of the LORD your God, to keep his commandments and his statutes that are written in this Book of the Law, when you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
      11 “For this commandment that I command you today is not too hard for you, neither is it far off.
      12 It is not in heaven, that you should say, ‘Who will ascend to heaven for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
      13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, ‘Who will go over the sea for us and bring it to us, that we may hear it and do it?’
      14 But the word is very near you. It is in your mouth and in your heart, so that you can do it.
      15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil.
      16 If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I command you today, by loving the LORD your God, by walking in his ways, and by keeping his commandments and his statutes and his rules, then you shall live and multiply, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to take possession of it.

      It is not a yoke that can’t be born if it is in our hearts. It is not too hard. The new covenant is about His Torah being written on our hearts.

      Jeremiah 31
      31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
      32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
      33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.


    100. Debbie Fraser
      November 30th, 2010 @ 1:40 pm

      Happy Birthday to your wife Dr Brown. May the Lord bring many to Him in India using you as His vessel.

      By the way I agree with your above post.

      Thank you Father for your Son and our Savior. Thank you so much for Mercy and Grace.

    101. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 2:09 pm

      Dr. Brown,

      You wrote:
      “I write this as one who loves every syllable of God’s Word…”

      Is this a nostalgic or sentimental love? Is it an emotional attachment? Or is it the kind of scriptural love that results in actually doing what it says?

      Psalm 119
      165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
      166 LORD, I have hoped for thy salvation, and done thy commandments.
      167 My soul hath kept thy testimonies; and I love them exceedingly.
      168 I have kept thy precepts and thy testimonies: for all my ways are before thee.

      Do you love it in a way that you are not offended…which means stumble from walking it out. Do you hope in YHWH’s Salvation…Y’Shua, “AND” do YHWH’s commandments? Do you love His testimonies exceedingly?

      Are you one that has looked into YHWH’s perfect law and gone away still thinking you can continue to break it?…deceiving yourself?

      Luke 12
      47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
      48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

      Much has truly been given to you. If you are wrong about whether we are to keep the Torah…you risk many stripes. If you are wrong about doing and teaching others to do it, you jeopardize a place of honor in the kingdom.

      Matthew 5
      19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      John 9
      40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
      41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

      I ask that you also examine your heart for the possibility of self deception.

      Have a blessed trip.


    102. Debbie Fraser
      November 30th, 2010 @ 2:24 pm


      I’m just curious about something. Do you speak in the heavenly language(speaking in tongues)?

    103. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 2:45 pm


    104. Dr Michael L Brown
      November 30th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

      Bo — I constantly examine my heart for self-deception. May the Lord help you!

    105. Dave
      November 30th, 2010 @ 4:30 pm


      Just as you have accused many of “in effect abolishing the law” by saying He fulfilled it, you are “in effect” making to no substance the new way of the Spirit. You can say as many times as you want that it is “through the Spirit” and “the law written on our hearts”, yet all of your posts refer to the outward keeping of the Torah.

      Your position is clear. Those who don’t observe the Torah(obey His commandments) will not “eat of the Tree of Life” or “enter the New Jerusalem”.

      What else needs to be said? You claim salvation doesn’t come through Torah observance yet “IN EFFECT” that is EXACTLY what you are saying.

      Please stop avoiding the issues at hand and that are directly in the face of what you believe. Don’t dance around the implications of what you are teaching and the fate that arrives those who disagree and “don’t obey”.

      And above all else, do not avoid this topic anymore by sidestepping it. Be clear and bold! State what you believe is the outcome and fate for those who don’t observe Torah. If you really believe what you believe you will get to the point and warn us of our everlasting separation from Him on that last day.

      Unless, of course, I am wrong in my understanding of you and you believe and that Torah observance is optional…in which case we will just not be as great in the kingdom as those who do.

      Maybe Jesus was confused when he first said that we will be called “least in the kingdom of heaven” just to realize he meant we will not “enter the New Jerusalem” or “eat of the Tree of Life” in the book of Revelation? Where we will be cast out with the dogs, murderers and idolaters…with those who “never knew him”.

      Which is it? Please be clear. Please be bold. You seem to be flip-flopping between the outcome of our souls and it is hard to tell how serious you are by not being direct.

    106. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 7:56 pm


      Whatever is in our hearts will show up in our actions and words. If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts we will do it. It is not that doing it gains us access to the tree of life. It is that those that have had the work done in their heart fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we love the law of YHWH we will not break it. That is what Psalm 119:165 says. That is what the new covenant entails. We do what is written on our hearts. If it is still on stone to us, we won’t be able to keep it.

      What we believe shows up in our works. If we claim to believe that it is wrong to sin, but continue to live in sin, it is obvious that we do not really believe it. We may want to believe it or we may give mental assent to it, but we do not really believe it. The devils believe and tremble. They fail to commit themselves to doing the works. How much better to work out (not for) our own salvation with fear and trembling.

      Philippians 2
      12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

      Revelation 2
      4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
      5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
      6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
      7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

      What are “THE first works”?

      Ephesians 2
      10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

      What are the “works which YHWH hath before ordained that we should walk in them”?

      I cannot change what the scripture says. If it says that those that keep YHWH’s commandments are blessed and will have the right to the tree of life, how can I disagree? It simply states it as fact. Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy means exactly what it says.

      I find no confusing ideas in Y’Shua’s statements. He declares very straight forwardly that those that are living a lifestyle of disobedience will be told, “depart from me I never knew you.” We can say “lord, lord” until we are blue in the face, but our obedience proves that He really is our Lord. He who does not do the will of the Father will be rejected as workers of lawlessness. Those that are living a lifestyle of keeping YHWH’s commandments will have the right to the tree of life.

      Matthew 7
      21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
      22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
      23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
      24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

      The above saying of His must not only be heard but done if we are to build our house on the rock. What is there to do? The will of the Father which is in heaven. What do you think that the original hearers of this saying of His thought He was talking about? What do you think that Y’Shua and the hearers sitting there thought the will of the Father in heaven entailed? Where do we get the right to change the meaning to something else? We are to be doers and not just hearers.

      To be continued below.

    107. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 7:57 pm

      Continued from above.

      James 1
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

      It is not the hearers of the law that are righteous, but the doers of it.

      Romans 2

      13 It is not those that merely hear the Law read who are righteous in the sight of God, but it is those that obey the Law who will be pronounced righteous.
      14 For when Gentiles who have no Law obey by natural instinct the commands of the Law, they, without having a Law, are a Law to themselves;
      15 since they exhibit proof that a knowledge of the conduct which the Law requires is engraven on their hearts, while their consciences also bear witness to the Law, and their thoughts, as if in mutual discussion, accuse them or perhaps maintain their innocence—
      16 on the day when God will judge the secrets of men’s lives by Jesus Christ, as declared in the Good News as I have taught it.

      Paul says that the law written on our hearts causes us to keep it. The doers of the law are declared righteous…this is part of Paul’s gospel. He says that those that walk in the spirit fulfill the law. Fulfil means that they do it. Fulfil does not mean that it is as if we do it.

      Romans 8
      4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      Paul says that being under grace does not give us license to sin…brake the law. And that we serve who we obey…law breaking unto death or obedience unto righteousness. Grace is supposed to make us obedient to YHWH’s law. It is supposed to write YHWH’s law upon our hearts.

      Romans 6
      15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
      16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
      17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

      Would Paul be thanking YWHW if he saw our disobedience? Part of the doctrine Paul delivered is that the doers of the law are just…it shows that it is written on our hearts. Part of the doctrine Paul delivered is that grace does not give us permission to break the law…sin. On the last day Paul says that we will be judged by these truths that he proclaimed in his gospel. (Rom. 2:16) Does not Y’Shua say the same thing?

      Revelation 22
      11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
      12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
      13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
      14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

      So Paul, James, and the “ALPHA and OMEGA” all say the same thing. John says it this way.

      To be continued below.

    108. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 7:57 pm

      Continued from above.

      1 John 3
      4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
      5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
      6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
      7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
      8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
      9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
      10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

      1 John 5
      1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
      4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

      Revelation 2
      4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
      5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
      6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
      7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

      Real love and real faith does the works and obeys the commandments…that is why faith overcomes the world. That is why overcomers/commandment keepers get to eat of the tree of life.

      Psalms 6
      8 Depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity; for the LORD hath heard the voice of my weeping.

      Psalms 5
      5 The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

      Proverbs 10
      29 The way of the LORD is strength to the upright: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

      Proverbs 21
      15 It is joy to the just to do judgment: but destruction shall be to the workers of iniquity.

      There are many scriptural witnesses to all of this. I simply agree that the witness of scripture is true.

      You ask, “Is Torah optional?” I ask, “ Is real love optional? Is real faith optional? Is hope optional?” John answers, “ Every one that has this hope in him purifies himself, as He is pure.”


    109. Jabez H.
      November 30th, 2010 @ 8:10 pm


      Thanks for your considered relevant “discussion”, especially the highlighted scripture. This is part of one of Paul’s famous “conceits”, or lengthy arguments of doctrine advanced for living the life of faith.

      How do you see this progress as the conceit extends into Romans 7 & 8? I think you got to the heart of the matter of dealing with sin individually, since the provision of the Cross, and the offering of the Son’s accomplished work to His Father upon ascension makes such reckoning possible; now, I wonder with one moving through the self consciousness of Romans 7: how does one rest in Romans 8?, and what are the abiding believer’s chararcteristics therein?

      Dr. Brown has raised the concern that anyone can focus on the wrong conformity, and miss the conformity being advanced by Paul. As a Messianic believer I find this all the time, where those attracted to such a gathering’s central emphasis is the scroll or portion of it–unless it is linked to the centrality of the living Word, i.e. the risen Son. For many years in such gatherings the still small voice would request of my own involvement and awareness, devotion, and obedience an abiding linkage with Jesus.

      We have the apostasy today of the so called “historical Jesus” scholarship, which denies the literal eyewitness accounts, and especially John, as being accurate, due to Divinity statements made in these records. Instead, these folks seek to reconstruct a Jesus based totally on observables by other means than the eyewitness means, and by picking and chosing what is accepted by them as to what must be so by its very limitations of present day observables being used as a template of methodologies for examining who was “the historical Jesus”. In the process, limiting to the supposed methodologies of scholarship which only alludes to this world, and its relations and ponderables, we get a son of the Jews, not a Son of Man or Son of God.

      I mention this because of what you mention, i.e. the empowerment through Jesus to deal with sin, the challenge of accepting the Way to eternal life, and its ultimate linkage to Him. In Galations Paul contrasts the insufficiency of Mosaic observances and resulting traditions with the sufficiency of Christ–as He was provided to any and all, especially the Gentiles.

      It would be seven decades after the Messiah’s Lion come as a child among us prior to the demise of the Temple, and 65 to 70 more added to this where the People were uprooted as communities from the Land. Why such a harsh consequence to sin, and its locus of consequence, unless Jesus was indeed the only Way to the Father? And, as a result, the only truth to take on sin in the life of the New Covenant’s accomplishments?

    110. Ben KC
      November 30th, 2010 @ 8:20 pm


      I think it would be helpful if you would just shorten the Bible passages you present by stating the book/chapter/verse only instead of copying/pasting the full passage. It gets very tiresome to read through it all. Just a suggestion.

    111. Ben KC
      November 30th, 2010 @ 8:24 pm

      “Whatever is in our hearts will show up in our actions and words. If YHWH’s law is written on our hearts we will do it. It is not that doing it gains us access to the tree of life. It is that those that have had the work done in their heart fulfill the righteousness of the law. If we love the law of YHWH we will not break it. That is what Psalm 119:165 says. That is what the new covenant entails. We do what is written on our hearts. If it is still on stone to us, we won’t be able to keep it.”

      Bo, so lets be very very clear. Are you saying we are not saved because we do not observe the law like you do? Please do not dance around as Dave was addressing to you. Let your yes be yes or no be no.

    112. Ben KC
      November 30th, 2010 @ 8:35 pm

      Bo, to clarify again, because we do not agree with you, do you believe we saved or not saved? Im not asking you to copy/paste a list of Bible passages and write a book on your views again. Just a simple yes or no.

    113. Dave
      November 30th, 2010 @ 8:58 pm


      First let me say my intentions are not to get an emotional rise on this site. Nor is it to stir up offense of any kind. This has nothing to do with that for me. I am just wanting to get to the bottom line so we can be clear.

      So, then, in effect, you are saying we are saved by obeying Torah.

      What you are basically saying is “we are not saved by the Torah, but rather Jesus’ atonement. But if we don’t obey the Torah, especially after He puts it in our hearts to do so, then we are not commandment keepers. And since the Bible clearly says that commandment keepers will be tossed outside with the dogs, idolaters, and those who never knew Him”, our decision to not obey Torah shows the rebellion in our hearts to His clear commands and therefore it is evident we are not saved, our hearts have not been transformed.”

      Is this about right?

    114. John
      November 30th, 2010 @ 9:25 pm

      I would encourage all Christians posting here to stop wasting your time debating with Bo. He shows no signs of budging, and however well intentioned may be your interaction with him, all in effect it accomplishes is to provide him a platform to preach his heretical dogma (quite aptly labeled as “dangerous” by Dr. Brown earlier this year).

      In an earlier post Bo wrote, “I expect that you have been baptized and take communion form time to time. These seem like pretty small things to me.” If this he has concluded after many years of study do you really think your going to change his mind on this blog? Please do yourselves a favor and stop this vain interaction which leads to an otherwise excellent blog being clogged up with sprawling heretical rants.

      The best thing do for yourselves, the Body of Christ, and for this heretic is to shun him: if you love him instead dedicate the time to fasting and praying on his behalf–there is only One who can convert him.

      “But Jesus took him by the hand and raised him; and he got up. When He came into the house, His disciples began questioning Him privately, “Why could we not drive it out?” And He said to them, “This kind cannot come out by anything but prayer.”

    115. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 10:41 pm


      You quote me out of context. There was much more to that dialogue and the point was not that I consider those things lightly, but that they would seem like just physical things that do not do much in a human way of thinking.

      And I hope you know that the word heretic means chooser. I am an acceptor of the whole scripture. You might consider if you accept every word that proceeds from YHWH’s mouth.

      And please do me the “Christian courtesy” of representing me fairly in the future. I am sure that the religious leaders of Y’Shua’s day considered his teaching dangerous too.


    116. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 10:48 pm

      Ben KC,

      I am sorry that you do not like the Bible passages I quote. I include them so that the reader can see that I have a biblical basis for my statements. Most people do not look up references. I suppose that most skip the passages I quote also. It is YHWH’s word that is the important part…not my feeble attempts at convincing anyone.


    117. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 10:55 pm


      You are probably correct, I probably will not be converted. The ones that take the other side will not likely be converted either. But there are those that read the posts and search the scriptures to find out what is true. Maybe it will help them. Maybe it will cause someone to take the statements in scripture to heart. Maybe it will help us all dedicate our lives more fully to YHWH.


    118. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 11:11 pm


      I am not saying that we are saved by keeping Torah. I am saying that a saved person has the desire to be obedient and the Torah is part of YHWH’s word. I am saying that we deceive ourselves to read it and not put it into practice. Breaking Torah has always been sin and always will be at least until heaven and earth pass away. Messiah died to take away our sin not just to bring forgiveness of sin. Certainly, saved persons commit sins, but they are not supposed to continue in sin.



    119. Jabez H.
      November 30th, 2010 @ 11:16 pm

      Bo, Is Moses the mediator of the New Covenant, or did he speak of someone coming after him?

    120. Bo
      November 30th, 2010 @ 11:18 pm


      Y’Shua is the mediator of the new covenant.

    121. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:02 am

      Hear us Him!

    122. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:02 am

      Folks — we’re done here with this subject. Bo has been warned and exhorted, he’s made his views clear and raised serious charges against us — may the Lord enable him to see the truth of the Word — and there are other threads in which these issues can be discussed. So, let’s move on from here and get back on topic, if desired. Otherwise, join in on another thread — and please do cover this India trip in prayer. Thanks!

    123. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:03 am

      Him says, “Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

    124. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:05 am

      Thanks for the drama Dr. Brown.

    125. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:06 am

      If only you would read what the word says for what it says…

    126. BenKC
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:09 am

      “If only you would read what the word says for what it says…”

      We say the same for you.

    127. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:10 am

      I knew you would.

    128. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:11 am

      Now back to the subject of backsliding…

    129. Dr Michael L Brown
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:19 am

      Bo — there’s no drama here, and if that was meant in a mocking tone, then you’re out of line. If it was meant as a joke — I was quite serious. Move on! (Please do NOT reply to this post, lest we stray off topic again.)

    130. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:22 am

      I think that the parable of the sower sowing the seed hits all the major reasons why people backslide…Satan stealing the word when we do not understand it, no depth of character, the cares of this life and the deceitfulness of riches choking the word.

      Maybe it could be summed up in the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life.


    131. Sheila
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:27 am

      May you have safe passage to India and I pray you will win many souls for the Lord. Sending you and your fellow diciples our thoughts and prayers.

    132. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 5:12 am

      Bo, You asked,

      “Revelation 2
      4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.
      5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
      6 But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate.
      7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

      What are ‘THE first works’?”

      And someone asked the Master, “what must I do to do the works of God,” and He answered, “believe in the One who He has sent”.

      As for cheap grace, etc., the first works of the seven churches written to in the Revelation were plain enough, exactly the same as what the Master answered. There is one thing needful, and that is to have our hearts in His camp. Then what proceeds from those hearts will reflect our “first love”. In most failures of consequence in any given discipline, or applied field of study, it is failure to do the basics, the foundation principles, the tenets and axioms of faith in this case which lead away from first works, and their absolute success.

      Alliances with “Him who was, and is, and is to come” should not be taken as matter of fact or for entitled granted. The Revelation’s “unveiling of Jesus” must remain our cornerstone, of all we say and do, over lifetimes of affiliation with Him, the Apostles’ Message, and the Promise. He is the beginning and the end. Peter told in his second letter how to go on with him, and add to that foundation, and it is not by the old, but by the New and Living Way’s internalized affirmation of a whole way of living.

      Jesus primarily deals with our hearts on conversion, and as to continuing to receive from Him, the very affirmations daily of our way of living, relating, and doing and being. Revl 2:5 refers back to a point where hearts fell out of loving as Jesus loves. 2:3 & 4 clearly establishes that the church at Ephesis’ first love was its basis of “works”, and that their was no other measure of sufficiency for works. We can turn away from the love of the Lord in turning to self efforts, or other ways of believed sufficiency. There was a whole way of living associated with the lifestyle lived when in the love of Christ as “first”.

      “I know your works” is the claim of the Lord himself, not of our own understanding without abiding in His Way of the Heart (see vv. 9, 13, 19; 3:1, 8, 15): it is very clear that the measuring stick here is not Moses’ law, but the very Heart of the Holy Spirit, who bears testimony of Him and His New and Living Way. This is a repetative statement from the all seeing, and all knowing One.

      He asks His churches to return to their first love which perpetuated a quality of relationships which only abiding in His Spirit can.

    133. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 5:23 am

      Corrections. entitled granted, of the fifth paragraph, should read “entitlements granted”.

      The next paragraph, middle sentence or so, their = there.

      And, an additional thought on the Revelation, the great multitude, not easily numbered in its reference, “washed their robes white”, by the word of “their testimony”, in the “blood of the Lamb”. No other Way than His Way is the Way.

    134. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 5:32 am

      Apologies for diverting from your instruction, forum and site Pastor Brown, unfortunately this did not appear here on my machine as I wrote my reply on a question Bo asked prior. In fact I think my aging laptop choses preloaded representations of threads instead of up-to-date threads on some occasions. As it is an XP machine, a Dell with 1GB of memory, and my HP with vista just died a literal death (with 2.5 GB of RAM), I had forgotten the limits of this machine when interacting with your site.

      I trust this is not willful backsliding.

    135. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 5:38 am

      Bo, I concur with your cited mention of the teaching of the Lord as is quoted paraphrased in thread #130 (where the Word came and dwelt among us, and lived the most excellent Way). He seemed to mention to that dissipation of energies and focus also played into this reality.

      So, it seems to have both universal and specific applications and convictions, those words being his words. How to focus on the Way He modeled to do and be becomes a matter of the heart according to his admonishions to the seven churches in the Revelation.

    136. Sheila
      December 1st, 2010 @ 9:43 am

      In answer to Jabez, #82

      I think another way we can understand the most needful things is to meditate on these words and verses. It took me a long time to even begin to grasp the simplicity and economy of words which our Lord spoke. It seems when I think I’ve understood some verses perfectly, I come to appreciate a new revelation I hadn’t noticed before. And I hope it helps others as it did me, to stay on track. He said:

      Mat 18:1 At that time the disciples came to Jesus, saying, “Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?”

      Mat 18:2 And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them

      Mat 18:3 and said, “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

      Mat 18:4 Whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

      I think, in part, it means when we “become as little children”, that we become totally dependent on our Lord, just as children are totally dependent on their parents. They look to their parents to feed them, to clothe them, to provide for their every need. They learn from them and receive correction from them, for their own good. Children are humble, in that, they are considered of no report, especially compared to those grown in stature and wisdom, and they know within themselves that they are not equal to the knowledge of their father or mother, just as we know and understand that we are in no way equal to the knowledge of our Father, nor of our Lord. Children possess an innocence and a sense of wonder and why and when we “become as them” we begin again by trusting in our Father and our Lord. We make ourselves of no report, we abase ourselves and place ourselves in a lower rank, leaving off pride and assuming a manner less haughty. So, if the child is greater in the Kingdom than the most learned of men, the most learned need to be “born again” in a spirit of humility and a desire to be taught by their Father and Lord, growing into His image and learning from His instructions.

      We are born into this world when our mother’s water breaks, being born of water. We become, in an instant, immediately and totally at her mercy and care. When we are born of the Spirit, we become in that instant, also, immediately and totally at the mercy of and under the care of the Father and of our Lord. And then we begin the growth process all over again. Beginning and ending with humility.

    137. Ruth
      December 1st, 2010 @ 10:56 am

      What occurs to me is that when Yeshua (Jesus/Lord) said: “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and greatest commandment.” Matthew 22:37-38 — that this also means it’s not only about the heart. Of course the heart certainly matters, but so does the mind. The mind needs knowledge. My original point is that we need to read the entire Bible to have a sound foundational knowledge of God’s mind. To know what He approves of and doesn’t. When I first read the prophets I said to myself something to the effect of, “Now THIS is the mind of God!” It was pretty apparent that these words were of a different voice than the prophet’s own. The weight and brilliance of them were obviously beyond that of mortal man. It was pretty exciting to discover Him in His words through the prophets.

      I agree that much of the old law which pertained to the sacrificial system is superfluous today, but ONLY because of Yeshua’s sacrifice as the Son of God. That system was very important in its day, of course. But the New Covenant is inaugurated with the blood of the Lamb of God, once for all time. The blood of bulls and goats, et.al, could never expiate sin fully, we can see that. We have that new and glorious hope that we can wear the robes of righteousness – but not through our deeds alone — through His imputed righteousness, through our faith in Him.

      Of course, that doesn’t mean we can backslide into sin and think “Jesus paid for my sins, it’s all good.” That would be a profound misunderstanding; in effect, like the sow returning to her vomit. That’s not to say that after backsliding we are thus unredeemable, does it? I think as long as there is life, we can obtain mercy. There may be some hard cases (such as necromancing serial killers) for which that is no longer available, I don’t really know and definitely can’t say. We know there are some who are “damned” for all time. Our job though is not to pronounce them as such — but to hope and pray that they obtain mercy — to teach, if that is our capacity, but to leave all judgments to God.

      I know that in my own personal journey, I had to 1) Learn of His ways, His laws, etc., to point out to me that regardless of what the world’s morality said was “wonderful” — that I was, in fact, sinning: i.e., fornication primarily. So the Law (Ten Commandments) pointed out my sin, and His Spirit convicted me of being a sinner. So what to do? Personally, I needed a church home in which I could find fellowship and continue to study His Word. Doing so, He made me aware (in my prayer closet, privately and alone) that I needed baptism. This was accomplished. And even though the minister didn’t seem to have much faith in the efficacy of it, I knew that it was between me and my Lord. And I found it to be a life-changing experience. I found I had the power within me (not my own, but God’s) to overcome areas of temptation which heretofore I couldn’t. In fact, it is just as Paul wrote about the Spirit warring against the flesh; and the Spirit will win, because it is truly much stronger. Since that time, I’ve been able to call upon Him in every circumstance and find all the help I need. This doesn’t mean I don’t still sin. I think my sins are relatively minor (certainly not to the degree of the past) — such as losing patience or becoming angry when frustrated — but I repent and find forgiveness. I think it is simply that to err really is human.

      So, to summarize, I see that we do need that total love for God in ALL the departments of our being, not only our heart.

      This was my personal journey and so I know, from my own experience, these things to be true. From what I understand, they are also Scripturally sound.

      What I find grievously wrong is when people sneer with disdain at the laws of God. Some (the Ten) are still in force, and others (pertaining to the old sacrificial sytem) are not. But the important thing to take away from a study of them all is to learn more of the mind of God. How He slowly drew the children of Israel away from an extremely brutal, paganistic world into a people with laws and statutes. How He separated Israel by instructing them in how to live, and consequently taught the whole world through their examples, both positively and negatively. How He slowly prepared their consciousness (and all who are grafted in) for that dramatic shift to being able to partake of the Indwelling Spirit. Only God Himself could do all that!

      (Jabez, I just read your earlier post, and I will read on into Romans to understand your question. Thanks.)

    138. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:06 pm


      Remember that the sower was sowing the word of YHWH. So backsliding, in the senses I mentioned, would be away from what the word says, not away from some non-concrete idea.


    139. Debbie Fraser
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:40 pm

      Luke 18
      The Parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector

      9 To some who were confident of their own righteousness and looked down on everyone else, Jesus told this parable: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
      13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’

      14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

    140. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:47 pm

      As for the parable of the sower, “nonconcrete data”, etc. There is nothing more concrete than the life of Jesus. The prable of the sower is most often interpreted as being about the Nation and Jesus’ attempts to connect with it, where it was stuck in literalism.

    141. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:47 pm


    142. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 12:49 pm

      If Jesus was not concrete as to his meanings given to the seven churches, and his requirements of them in their particular states of being–and as mentioned to the church at Ephesis–we would be wise to look for another.

    143. Debbie Fraser
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:25 pm

      Instead of boasting about keeping the Law. Boast on what Jesus did, freed us from the Law.

      Jesus freed us from a system that can not save us. That is what we need to boast about, not our good works, what we do, what we did. It is not about us, but about Him. Our Lord, our King, our Savior.

      The Holy Spirit is not dumb, He will convict us of our sins.

      1John 1:9
      9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.

      The Law is bondage. We can not win. The Law defeated us. WE our dead. Until Jesus came and now we LIVE.

    144. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:26 pm


      You misquote me. I said non-concrete idea not data. And you are reading way more into my statement than I meant. I like the letters to the churches just fine. Let’s actually deal with the concrete things that they say. They were all backsliding to some degree, except mayby one. They were called to repent. Surely we could learn much from a verse by verse study of these, without reading into them our preconceived ideas.

      I was wondering how the parable of the 10 virgins applies to this topic of backsliding. Were the 5 foolish actually believers? Had they lost their salvation? Were they just backslidden but still saved? Did they get into the kingdom later as subjects instead of ruling and reigning with Messiah? Were they believers that lost the chance to be part of the Bride?


    145. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:27 pm

      Debbie Frasier,

      If only you could understand.


    146. Debbie Fraser
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:45 pm

      I spoke no lie in my post. I said what I did to free those who are obsessed with the Law.

      Talk about Jesus’s love instead.

    147. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:48 pm

      We are supposed to go back on topic in this forum.

    148. Debbie Fraser
      December 1st, 2010 @ 1:51 pm

      I know. I am sorry. Forgive me. Forgive me Dr Brown and staff. I got convicted after I wrote it. :)

    149. Travis Mansfield
      December 1st, 2010 @ 4:17 pm

      Paul was not hostile to the Torah, but He was hostile to the wrong understanding of Torah, likewise Messiah was not hostile to the Torah, but He too emphasized, the weighter matters of Torah, those matters are of more importance, that is why they are talked about as weighter matters of Torah which are (mercy, faith(belief, trust), love, justice, & righteous judgement). So there are many matters of Torah that are not as weighty, or important as those weightier matters of Torah. As a matter of fact Yehoshua the Messiah is the weighter matters of Torah, because He is love, as love He emphasizes the most important before the less important, yet also as love He shows the lesser matters can be a blessing if people do them in His way, and time, while some of the lesser matters are no longer Eloheem/God’s will to accomplish. For example, a lesser matter of Torah has been shown when the Yah was angry, with feast days, assemblies, sacrifices, the weighter matters need to be done, they are more important than the lighter matters of Torah.

      This presents the truth.

      Amos 5:21-22, Eloheem/God condemns their service to Him, saying, “I hate, I despise your feast days, and I do not savor your sacred assemblies. Though you offer Me burnt offerings and your grain offerings, I will not accept them, Nor will I regard your fattened peace offerings.” Why? Because they had neglected the weightier matters of Torah, as He says in verse 12, “For I know your manifold transgressions, and your mighty sins…” They might have said, “But Yah, what do you want?” He continues as though to answer the unspoken question, in verse 24: “But let justice run down like water, and righteousness like a mighty stream.”

    150. Travis Mansfield
      December 1st, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

      Upps sorry my mistake, I forgot we are not supposed to talk about the issue of the Law here. Blessings

    151. Jabez H.
      December 1st, 2010 @ 11:13 pm

      Bo, It is perplexing to read your statement…”Surely we could learn much from a verse by verse study of these, without reading into them our preconceived ideas”. Why, because of your own past assumptions of out of context meanings of this verse or that one in the letters: as to assumptions made of certain phrases, yet without the contextual connections and establishments of a given passage’s mutual corevelancies built and woven throughout a given letter, by a given author, to a given readership. The New Testament authors are primarily those linked in very heart with Christ Jesus. [And I have faith in the Lord for you, that in time, all this barrage of dominance and such use of disjointed noncontextual citings will come up short for your soul, and out of its own need for stale water changing into wine you will do the work to pull from the passages of connection of a given text {letter} to understand the very heart of each author's intentions. Paul did not meet Moses, nor was instructed of Moses on the road to Damascus. Dry desert seasons, or primarily going on one's own propensities of assumption, will not replenish the well over time].

      This has been a matter of suppression of what is actually being stated by the hearts expressing truth and grace when so interpreting by assumed meaning carried from the old literal into the New and Living Way, where so. Each letter is first of all a comment on itself, its own ideas, then we can look at the whole assembly of data of the individual author’s other expressions adding up the light to complete an impartation of contextual/historical/literary meaning as well.

      Paul in particular uses argumentation with very long thought development, and a yielded heart. His “therefore”‘s in Romans are particularly telling. The sound bite was not yet invented in the cultures with which he interacted, nor the overzealous heaping up of content based on a key word search somewhere. Even today Yeshiva’s and other rabbinical schools take the long way around the barn, often to enter it from the nonfacing door so to speak, inorder to extract the intentions of relevant fact.

      James, John, and Paul were partcularly difficult to approach with authenticity by the past limiting expressions you have made or often miscited. As for “reading into” these expressions, to date, you would fail commentary thesis assignments in the best of Seminaries (based on those assumptions past made as projected into the partial texts you have given alone). There are many websites on effective exegesis, as to faithfully reproducing the author’s passage and argumentation intentions. Try a passage sometime, simply for the joy of development of author intented meaning. Frankly the Word comes alive by such study, delighting the soul over the pursuit.

      As for backsliding, some good sharing has occurred here, with various possibilities on how so. Deception over self is often at the core.

      My own take on the 10 virgins would be as to these being Watchmen on our own walls or boundaries of maintaining faith with the lulling and enticing world system all around us sending out its cobwebs–as to soberly being mindful of what we will wall in and wall out. If we do not first and foremost maintain our connection to the Head, and the still small voice for sober regard, we may not be “ready” for the Return at all. Then enticement may capture five over what the world is up to. It is a conscious business, trimming one’s provided lamp.

      This has been contemplated for some time, where, the burden of this illustration is to abide in Him while still in this world, and even as associated with other believers who might literally sap us of what we are diligent to be and do, the oil being oft used for the Holy Spirit’s presence in scripture. Trimming the oil is a different notion than whip em up pump em up notions of needing more of the manifestations of meeting based behaviors sometimes hyped as Holy Spirit actions. And it is different than being so quiet that even a small contrary wind might extinguish the flame.

      As you wrote, Bo, the letters are warnings in part, and as you have not shared, they also encourage certain ways, behaviors, and expressions of faith, hope, and love. They begin and end with wishes of peace in God. It is clear that the Kingdom is a relational reality, and a revelation of the intention of the qualifications of redemption, yet too with our particular human condition of self awareness happening through it all. We all need the admonishment of the various thoughts, concerns, and solutions of scripture: of primarily that coming after receipt of the Promise by these letters’ authors. Did they become what they beheld of Yeshua for a few intense years of godly intimacy?

      Jude can be very poignant in the knowledge that human predatory tendencies have existed for all related history, among the history of the people of God,with this trend as socially acceptable, or that one–all the while being sinful in enticement, intention, and consequence. A key question to walking in faith is what empowers one, and how is that maintained so as to be gently effective while doing and being? Yet, even with this letter, we find the testimony of Jesus Christ prevailing over such soul deceiving stuff buring short candles for short seasons for many.

      As Michael Brown wrote, we must search our own hearts and minds for deception, and lay out our confession before the Lord to be known by Him. Pride is dangerous, immobility is problematic, sharing the light, yet retaining it, is an ongoing challenge of the heart following the Way.

      The world would consume us, dissipate our very oil of life (the other symbol of oil most used). Why ten virgins? Perhaps with the notion of the lost tribes, wherever they be, keeping on with their faith, in spite of unknown identity, dispersion, and captivity with the longing for grace.

      This too is an interesting thought, for, since the 6th century, when the notion of passing on the Priesthood of Moses was lost due to the history of the Jews–as to a true Biblically endowed continuous bequest of the office of elder Priest to growing new becoming Priest–we are alike challenged in our own passing on or even the receipt of the gentle life necessary to faith.

      I like this passage because the virgins are waiting for the Lord, obviously with darkness around, the need for light to be maintained, yet not found by giving up the oil needed for their own essential life to be watchful and abiding in the vine during dark phases of the Moon(the description is very different than the notion that one must continually give away more and more to receive more from God, an anxious church culture notion which is sold as a bill of goods to get as well as give in part, always with the heart of merchandising. We are challenged to turn these tables over.).

      Here we find the personal freedom and choices and endowment of the Spirit to maintain in the face of the pressures of the last days, final events, and connections once established now coming into question between five and five of ten. It has an interesting parallel in these times with the restoration of natural Israel. To create the 2004 intially “New” Sanhedrin rabbinical court and wisdom body of the elders of Israel, the various Hebrew and Yeshiva schools and cadres competing to hold and yet give away their own lineage of truth have moved very cautiously forward toward a comutually regarded coequal necessary recognition of coand coadornment mutually recognized to grant the whole possibility of the mantel of an anointing by God returning to the Priesthood and Elderbody of the Land. It was mutually humbling, and without precedent since the fifth century CE, in Tiberias, to assert a newly made quiet in the recognition of one another’s bonds as well as boundaries. This must be part of the current restoration of natural Israel (albeit, in separation from other movements in the Land of assembly of both the natural and spiritual their as One).

      Will we permit the challenge of the virgins to be our own? Do we know the balance of light and the trimming of the light? Will the humility of seeking the Word for what it actually states and concludes be in the mix of oil used, begged for, and maintained?

    152. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 11:54 pm


      That was a lot of words. Could you summarize? You can leave out the part of how I am so inept, out of context, bla bla bla. There is no need to rake me over the coals as to your opinion of me and my scripture references. I asked a legitimate question without inserting my view, so all of you lambasting is out of line.


    153. Bo
      December 1st, 2010 @ 11:56 pm


      Have you, by chance, looked at the posts on November 19th? I would be interested in your response.


    154. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 12:23 am

      Here is a song called Asleep in the Light by Keith Green. He was sort of a musical prophet of the ’70s through July of 82 when he was killed in a plane crash. This is one of the most powerful christian recording artists you will likely ever hear. Take a listen.



    155. R. Kneubuhl
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 1:13 am

      Why do some people backslide? The truth is, temptation becomes so overwhelming that we can’t control ourselves. There is none of us that are perfect. We all know the feeling of temptation in our lives. If God expects perfect obedience, then we all will fail. By His mercy we have been set free from our imperfections and by his grace we will have eternal life. There is no other way to stand before a perfect God who judges in righteousness. Adam has proved that we are ultimately in need of mercy, and thank God that He is love. I need His love, we all do. I hope that He changes my heart to understand Him better and how much I need Him. I hope that love for God will rule my life one day because it is rejection of Him in my life that causes me to sin. Save us Jesus.

    156. Juan G.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 2:45 am

      “Here is a song” – Bo

      Wow, that is amazing!

      I just saw “Lordship Salvation Does Not Save!” in a review on Amazon.com of a K. Green CD. I’ve never heard of that claim. I guess back-slidding is (and demons are) acceptable if you can be saved without even trying to obey Jesus.

    157. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 7:50 am

      Sure, Who do the Virgins represent in context? Why do their interdependencies fail? Is it selfish or preservative to use the oil given for self maintenance of an essential relationship, while waiting for whom?

      Messiah is bridegroom, coming for who? Jesus in his teaching places himself as Lord in placement. He still tarries, while the bride may forget his very face and bearing. The very delay of His coming puts the burden on the bride to maintain. Yet the Parousia has its linkage to the Messianic expectation of Israel. Ten tribes are unidentified (were at one time anyway), five still with a proper expectancy, five losing the vision of expectancy. The coming King tarries, what to do?

      Yeshua will carry his bethrothed back to his home, to be included in his merriment of the occasion. Where can we find an adequate supply of oil, from our unique relationship with the Promise, not of ourselves or by draining from others? Who were called the wise here? What do they bring? What do the foolish lack?

      When does the cry ring out? Who awakens and tends to their lamps, who is sleeping? It is the promise of the end of the Age, and the beginning of all hoped for. One’s preparation cannot be given to another, diligence and devotion is for one’s own abiding pursuit. He returns, the door is shut once and for all time.

      At that time, this time, the Kingdom is like these bethrothed, so pictured. How to maintain hope for connection to the Head when he tarries? How to not be lulled to sleep? What is the price of keeping up hope, faith, and love? What is the duty of our watch?

    158. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 7:55 am

      Secondly the call to expectancy tarries with the absence of the bridegroom. Natural Israel regathered too is awakened and stirring. Which values of who will relight the lamps needed to be ready? Why does redemption tarry, and what is happening to eyes once blind, and hearts once hardened? It is as if springtime accompanies the bridegrooms group coming to glean from the missing tribes as well: those whose hearts are stirred to awakening, whose lives reorient for the expectation, whose days are limited in this regard.

    159. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 8:00 am

      Thirdly, we have those who have remained true all along, whose sleep is not death, but of the rest of maintining life unto promised Kingdom purpose. Now the hope of life, of the promised shared life with the King, of the intimacy only known between bride and groom, with all the joys and shared experience involved, is the primary gift of the joining. The groom’s accompanying group has come for the bride, and she is ready; they all return to His home to celebrate and enjoy the shared life of Hope, faith, and love.

      For the first time ever, life makes sense.

    160. Debbie Fraser
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 10:02 am

      R. Kneubuhl,
      I say big Big AMEN to your post. May the Lord strengthen us all.
      Lord bless R. Kneubuhl. I pray for favor in his life and protection.

    161. Debbie Fraser
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 10:22 am

      R. Kneubuhl…
      I felt strong by the Lord to do a search on your name. Do not ask me exactly why I did, just being led by the Holy Spirit. Well, is your name Rebecca? Are you a singer and is this one of your songs? “This Broken Soul” by Rebecca Kneubuhl. If you are, I correct my above post to “pray for favor and protection in her life”

      If you are not Rebecca…sorry but the prayer still remains.

      “This Broken Soul” by Rebecca Kneubuhl.

    162. Sheila
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 12:26 pm

      posts 157, 158,159

      So appropriate for this time of Hanukkah; the oil in our own lamps.

    163. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 1:57 pm


      I wonder if it is a bit more simple. As I am sure you know, an analogy/parable can loose its point if we try to make every last detail mean something. Some parables are a bit more detailed and have many correlations between the story’s details and the realities being conveyed. Some parables seem to be told to emphasize one main point.

      In meditating on the parable of the 10 virgins and looking at the context in which it was given, I am seeing one main point that is brought to the front over and over in context of Y’Shua’s teaching on that occasion. It seems to be a graphic depiction of the results of faithfulness and endurance.

      We see the subject of faithful endurance being brought up before the 10 virgins story in Matthew 24:13, 42-51. We see this concept continued from vs. 15:14 to the end of the chapter. There are obviously different things to be faithful in, and thus different teachings and parables, here in Matthew, touch on some of these varied areas of being faithful.

      We see the idea of faithfulness in our concern and care for the well being of others in the sheep and the goats story.

      We see the idea of being faithful in our handling of truth in the parable of the talents, for we are to gain more gold after we receive the initial investment of money. The master left, having only given us very small percentage of the great wealth contained in the whole of scripture, but He did pour our His spirit to lead us into all truth. The word of YHWH is more to be desired than much fine gold. If we are content to stagnate in our knowledge and performance of the truth our end is not one of great reward…but “in the keeping of them is great reward.”

      We see the idea of enduring until the end in the face of deception, persecution, and tribulation in the teaching before the 10 virgins. We see, at the very end or Matthew 24, the idea of watching to make sure that the day of YHWH does not take us by surprise due to our lax lifestyle and falling in with those that live in sin.

      As for the story of the 10 virgins, we get a glimpse into the joy of the reward of enduring faithfulness, but also see the ultimate remorse brought on by good intentions and blissful hope. These latter two have no depth of character. They have no sense of duty. They are counterfeits of real faith/faithfulness and steadfast commitment.

      The foolish virgins bask (while they sleepily dream) in the prospect of a marriage to their beloved, but in their immaturity and short sightedness they fail to realize that the night will be long. Their selfish gladness of free salvation has blinded them to the stark reality that getting ready for the bride groom is not just a one time confession of faith.

      The wise virgins, though they have fallen asleep too, have prepared themselves for the long haul. They have made preparations so as to endure until the end. They have “put away childish things.” They understand that their beloved comes for a spotless bride. They have read his words to them and have washed in those words. They have made themselves ready. They have done their best to make themselves match up to the bridegrooms expectations. The extra oil may have some specific meaning, or it may not. We surely could meditate more on this item. Whatever it is, it sustains the wise ones through the night. It either is or causes enduring faithfulness. The Spirit of YHWH? The Word of YHWH? Depth of Character? All of the above?

      What ever the final analysis, we must endure until the end. We will either be let in or left out. I think it behooves us to take all these parables to heart and pursue each idea to the utmost.


    164. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 6:17 pm

      Bo, As for your notion of simplicity setting aside what I wrote, then to dismiss and take charge of my own understanding being thereby inadequate, I reject this. And not for personal reasons. There is a series of three parables in the Discourse’s context spoken over Jerusalem, this is the final of the series. Read them, in context, draw from them, in context. See what is being built up for the immediate audience, and a wider audience over time, and pondered of the Parable of the Virgins in its initial setting and its wider context (culturally, linguistically, logically, and thematically: as to points being asserted, and as to admonition). Then do the personal application. In your original posting you demanded the personal application first, and ignored these other immediate historical/literal contexts of Jesus parable, and, as with my own naitivitee of doing what you requested, then baited and switched once more (your well evidenced style by the way).

      Do you believe that the words you offered somehow simplify the issues and matters involved? That these words thus represent sum and substance of what the Messiah himself, as Lord, is instructing? Do you know how argumentation is built in Hebrew thought, religion, and wisdom culture, from which Yeshua came forth? Who is Jesus addressing on the Mt. of Olives overlooking Jerusalem? Why is context important for any reader’s understanding?

      Count your words, look at the context of the three building blocks of the associated parables in Jesus’ discourse. Count my words of three postings. Which are more succint in addressing all the interpretive challenges involved, your dismissal/reinterpretation, or what was asked from the text and its context? Why so?

      Read Paul too in his immediate passage context, as to making a point linked to earlier argumentation, in individual letter context as to what built up to any statements accepted and you have asserted and quoted, as to any thematic context developed on a passage’s topic or topics in the actual letter being cited, then throughout his writings, then of the thematic context of the story of Jesus (PRIOR TO AND AFTER THE SENDING OF THE PROMISE. AND AS TO JESUS PAST, PRESENT, AND FUTURE), then of the thematic context of being an Apostle, in the role of a Church planter/overseer, and of the historical/thematic context of how the spreading of the Gospel unfolded, and only then in the context of what is written of old in the law, then the Prophets, then the writings, etc. You start with the latter, and oft ignore all former. Your zeal for the law then blinds your interpretation of scripture.

      Certainly the questions raised of the readings of the three parable series in the discourse are some of those I offered, there can be many more. Certainly the parable you requested a response to, then did not like the response requested and dismissed, challenges us all–of the Promise of the Spirit, the Promise of the Return, the Promises of the Restoration of Israel and all things, and of the Promises of Old–with many challenges. Eschatological marriage meaning and Kingdom and Messianic challenges on the first layer, others mentioned on others.

      Ever use Photoshop, it breaks images into layers, which can be viewed of the whole picture, or, as to each pcture element (black and white, color layers, tonal elements, etc.): as broken down as pondered, accepted, or interpreted for accuracy and/or change. I know it is difficult for anyone to humble themselves and answer what seem to be another person’s questions given in response to your request to break down my earlier wordy answer (as I humbled myself and did at your request), but, if based on scripture’s own regard and wisdom there is something more to be gained, just as if going to commentaries to understand what Paul, Peter, James, and John may be saying in a different context on the law than you have permitted offers greater layers of perspective on the whole image, so to speak.

      Note that you were compelled by your own assumptive manner and way to go back and totally reinterpret for your self, and not use any helps provided and broken down from some layers of the passage involved by my responses. Why was this? Could it be that submission, “one to another” is not in your way? Have it your way and who is in charge? Then who is viewed as possessing the only correct response accordingly? Respond to simple questions raised from the text, from Jesus parable series in the Mount of Olives discourse, and of the context given, and it is not a matter of anyone being in charge: but of responding to the broad picture of What?, as a disciple of Jesus?

      I suggest to you that you may not be ready with the five ready for the bridegroom, and may, in fact be of the other five. Why, for all of the reasons given above.

    165. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 6:42 pm

      Bo, As for my first paragraph of #64, bear with me, for, these are words you did not request. But you seem unaware of your basic manner, way, and style of approach to scripture and others.

    166. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 6:47 pm

      Since you desire simple personal application as primary application, here goes. When you analyze scripture it begins from the perspective that you are superior in your comprehension, perspective, and understanding to any and all others. This differs from the manner in which Paul wrote he approached others, and the challenges involved. There, I gave you your preferred personal application of my first paragraph of #64, before granting the greater context of all our interchanges here in this forum, then of all other forums of this site. Since this is the manner you prefer, it is granted.

      Is it not more “fathful” and “enduring” to actually see what a passage says, means in its own historical/cultural/literary context, and then go to the personal application as another level of comprehension for one’s own benefit? It we always start with personal application it tells us something about our manner, processing, view of self, and view of the authority of scripture as to priority.

    167. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 7:01 pm

      Hence, exegesis evolved as a manner of scriptural interpretation which is more impartial in application than simply leaping to personal application by personal processing. Recall that the Lord, when advocating being perfect, as God is, placed this command in the impartial context of the rain given by God falling on the just and the unjust. In this sense it is God who is the giver, and people receivers, God being impartial in application. In the Sermon Jesus did not say the rain falls first on those who practice the original Mosaic law, or even those who have developed traditions around it, He said, the rain falls on the just and unjust. This says something about where His kind of perfection–impartiality of giving–is centered, and it is not merited as to the law in that instance of instruction. This is a simple illustration of scripture’s passage context speaking for itself, not anyone taking charge of the impartial gifts of God, as to their administration, and as were the traditionalists of the Visitation’s era. Throughout the Srmon on the Mount Jesus assets a New and Living Way along with the original values commanded of the Commandments and other moral law living principles of true and gracious community.

      If we always think our interpretation is the superior one, over and above what the actual passage is establishing, we will constantly be being deceived as to the passage’s intention. I John comes to the forefront of interpretive error in your past citations, Bo, as an example of why an effective exegesis is essential to understanding Christ, the New Covenant given the Nation, as carried by the Apostles to the Gentiles, and as to how it trickles down even to Israel today, us today, and our affilitations and associations today. God’s perfection is based on his impartial application of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, not on the personal applications of a traveling Tabernacle cultic society.

    168. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 7:40 pm

      No Bo, to keep these remarks fairly simple, I left off beginning an exegesis first with the passage, then paraphrase of it, then noting its significant words, researching these as to their complete possible meanings by themselves, then as used in context, then as to developing actual descriptors of the emphasis of the passage according to its original language word employments and usages. This would complicate the intention of what I just wrote, which had its own meaning and emphasis. Please trust that this was not written to build up my person at the expense of yours, but to uphold scripture and its own writers’ thoughtful integrity of the layers of meaningful expression which they themselves developed in the long and rich history of inspriation, revelation, and redemptive intention.

      II Cor 3-5 certainly underscores the impartiality of God, of his moral way, his values and principles, and of the callings put on his Apostles in the context of their time and placement. How wonderful it is that this has trickled down to us as meaningful even for our own personal applications.

    169. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 8:03 pm


      You wrote:
      “Please trust that this was not written to build up my person at the expense of yours, but to uphold scripture and its own writers’ thoughtful integrity of the layers of meaningful expression which they themselves developed in the long and rich history of inspriation, revelation, and redemptive intention.”

      I can’t believe you on the above statement. Your demeanor is too condescending. You take too many opportunities to lambaste. Your interpretations do not line up with the rest of scripture. This is my heart felt opinion.


    170. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 8:03 pm


      You think you know a lot that you do not know. I had nothing in mind when I asked the original questions about this parable. I had nothing to bait and switch. It had just occurred to me that this parable and backsliding had something in common.

      If you will note…the parable of the talents would be the one that would trip my trigger the best. I had not even remembered that this parable or the others were in relation to each other. But I started looking at and meditating on the one and the others, being in conjunction, happened to come into my view.

      You can reject my simple approach that has no cemetery (I use this word on purpose in place of seminary) training. The doctors of the law also rejected Y’Shua’s teaching.

      I offered my thoughts as a devotional meditation on faithfulness and endurance. How can anyone not have these two character qualities jump out at them in reading Matthew 24 and 25?

      What you call bait and switch, might just be you having a hard time coming to grips with the heart of what is being said in the passage. The intellectualism and liberalism that posses you might just be blinding you to the truth…at least on occasion.

      I assume that you still insist upon your idea about not being able to tell what day of the week it is. You base this upon intellectual ungodly science, and you shun the obvious scriptural and historical testimony that PROVES the opposite to be true. Where is your faith founded…in science and liberal philosophy or in the direct words of scripture? You might want to search your soul about this.

      It is pretty obvious that you are running a pretty close second to me in pridefulness and thinking you know all the answers…who knows, you may be leading me on occasion. But of course I can’t see my pride and you can’t see yours.

      You can culturalize and intellectualize the words of Messiah into nonsensical gibberish that has no application to us and our time if you like. I’ll simply continue to accept His sayings at face value and believe Him with the faith of a little child. I seriously doubt that this approach puts me into the category of the 5 that are to be locked out. It is generally the intellectual approach that should worry in this regard.

      1 Corinthians 1
      26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
      27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
      28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

      Jabez, I suggest that you deal with the topics that I raise and leave your personal vendetta against me out of the discussion from now on. This personality conflict does us and others no good. I will do the same. I will try to only deal with your arguments from now on. YHWH please help us both.

      No more accusations…please.


    171. Dave
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 8:16 pm


      You wrote:

      Is it not more “fathful” and “enduring” to actually see what a passage says, means in its own historical/cultural/literary context, and then go to the personal application as another level of comprehension for one’s own benefit? If we always start with personal application it tells us something about our manner, processing, view of self, and view of the authority of scripture as to priority.

      Wow…that was good. I have pretty regularly approached scripture with personal application first. I really think this will help me see beyond myself/beliefs to see what is really said. The funny thing is, I think if I am consistent in seeking what the text really means before personal application it will wind up benefiting ME all the more!


    172. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

      Hey Dave,

      Try out Matthew 5:17-19 first.


    173. Dave
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 9:16 pm


      You know I disagree with your interpretation of this passage. Regardless, I don’t see the connection you are trying to make with my post.

    174. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 9:59 pm


      Try this new approach that you learned from Jabez on that passage. See what you think it means without preconceived ideas. See what it means without looking for the personal application first.

      That is all I mean.


    175. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 10:02 pm


      In other words…see what He said to who He said it to. See What the words He said meant to who He said it to. Try to understand the passage from the cultural and historic perspective. etc. Try do divorce yourself from the 21st century Dave view and see the passage for what it says.


    176. Jabez H.
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 11:12 pm

      Bo, As to your comments of #70, you are simply unaware of your approach, and seem to lack self knowledge through your approach. Others have informed you of similar information, though noone has been quite as direct, to date. However, it has to come to you through other sources as well as my own mentions. Over and over through many attempts, threads, and forums, until the moderator or site personality has requested that these not continue, the problem has not been accepted as identified, let alone taken to heart for change.

    177. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 11:18 pm


      Are you going to stop insulting me and bringing up your judgment of me, or are you going to continue to rail and use personality conflicts to be half of your posts?


    178. Dave
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 11:33 pm


      I have spent much time on that passage. In fact, it is through the time I spent that I am completely convinced you are wrong in your interpretation.

      And while I have no interest in getting involved between you and Jabez, I read nothing in that post(176) that seems insulting to me. Could it be your defenses are high? I have been talked to in a much more condescending tone than that before from people and it was still the Lord speaking through them.

    179. Bo
      December 2nd, 2010 @ 11:43 pm


      I didn’t think that you would want to try to look at those verses in the new method you learned form Jabez.

      Thanks for your input. You might consider that my condescending tone to you in the past was from above also. Did you look at the posts Before 176 from Jabez? Would you like to balance your view with what you think of them? Maybe my defenses are high.


    180. Ruth
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:01 am

      Exhaustion can make us backslide. Stress. It’s very important to follow the Great Physician’s leading and take care of our health. We know that the body under stress can be especially weak to temptations. It is harder to be patient, kind, forbearing, forgiving, loving — all that we wish to be — when we are overly tired and in need of healing. Yet it is usually by ignoring His leading that we wind up over-taxed. We spiral ourselves away from Him. Making time for contact, privately, in prayer is so restorative, but then we need to align our actions with His benevolent leading for us.

    181. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:16 am


      I ask publicly that you leave ME alone. You can discuss my ideas and argue against my posts, but do not speak of me or my personality in this public forum. You will not convince me of error by insulting me or raking me over the coals. You are not my pastor or adviser as to how to behave. I adjure you to not bring up my personal sin, as you see it, over and over. If I have been rebuked by the site host…so be it. It is not your job to accuse me.


    182. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:29 am

      Back to backsliding…I have noticed that there is a very weak condition after being used by YHWH in a spiritual way. It is kind of like Peter declaring, “thou art the Messiah the son of the living Elohim” and then just a little later being rebuked for speaking from the enemy’s view point.

      It could be that the pride of knowing that one has been used sets one up for a fall. It could be the let down effect of dropping ones guard after winning a battle. What ever it is, it is a difficult place sometimes…especially when you forget to expect the temptation.


    183. Jabez H.
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:46 am

      So, all said, identified and detailed as to issues and matters raised about backsliding, and approaches to scripture and its own teaching recovering the mind of Christ, and the feet of our Master, what is needful to overcome sin, sins, and sinning?

      Bo wrote in #80 “there is no example in the history of the established ‘church’ repenting of its backsliding on a large scale”. who blinked over the reformation, who missed other changes in the historical direction and repentance of the “established Church”?

      Even this day, is not this very site dedicated to the challenge of such a repentance? I think too of Armstrong’s “Radio Church of God” labeling its own heresy and repenting: back to the sufficiency of the Gospel. I think of Sheila’s confessions in this blog, and her vulnerabilities by a tender heart turning each challenge over to Jesus. I think of the stories Dave, Tom, and others have shared about their personal struggles and coming into the Kingdom by grace, through truth. All shared under the possibilities of this site.

      I think of going to my then Pastor, who fell away to open homosexual affiliation in the late 1970s, and weeping before him as to his use of psychological arguments for the inevitablity of sin, the “sancficiation of personal sin”, and the deception he attempted bringing into a local assembly…where, in the pursuit of such arguments he subtly substituted his voice for the Words of Jesus over a several year time frame (when the teaching of “authority and submission” ruined the then so-called Charismatic movement). I was excommunicated, yet the fellow believers of that assembly survived its own demise conducted by this weeping “prophet”. Leaving the church, with its strong bondages taught of guilt, submission to its authority, and everyman’s psycholocial inevitability to sin was like leaving God at the time. This was a church which begain with the clear word of the Gospel, linkage to the Head, and mutual submission. What happened over the lulling years was the fear of man replacing the fear of God, and the love of Jesus.

      Repentance from backsliding permeates the history of the confessing church of Jesus Christ, with the price often paid of rejection and isolation of those attempting confrontation when the church goes the way of merchandising, saying one thing and doing another, open embrace of amoral behavior, and the deceit of pleasure, riches, and dissipation.

      Paul employed thought development, argumentation, analogy, confession, tears, a wounded body, journies, shipwreck, and time on his knees to return churches written to a fidelty with the Image of the true Christ. It amazes me how the common understanding of the Law of Love, set in regard by the Commandment of our Lord Jesus the Messiah, was commonly understood by the letter writers. BAcksliding to them was moving away from their first love to some other agenda.

      What followed the Apostles was martyrdom, rejection, isolation, fellowship, and true discipleship. What were the intentions of their texts, and as to how to address the problem of backsliding, as such? Whatever the human tendencies they mention, the primary difficulty was always when hearts fell out of essental fellowship with the Father, through the Son, as empowered by the Holy Spirit. “Return to the works which were your first works”.

    184. Jabez H.
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:03 am

      Bo, as to your comments on my #176, these were about an approach embraced, you I accept and love.

    185. Dave
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:17 am


      I wasn’t trying to stir the pot more. Just an observation that was truly separated from the fact that we disagree on things.

      As far as your comment about not thinking I would use the technique suggested by Jabez, I just told you in the previous post I have already done that many times with that text. I often don’t use that approach in general was my point. I’m guessing this is just a misunderstanding.

      Not to rehash the topic of Matthew 5, but to conclude this conversation as to the validity that I have in fact sought out truth to the text, I have already explained to you in previous forums my reasons for whom it was spoken too, and it’s timing…specifically before He died/resurrected, that it was applicable to that audience of Jewish people still under the Old Covenant, the tutor of the law. Once he had risen He had fulfilled that which He spoke of and sent his Spirit for us to live in newness of life, the new way of the Spirit.

    186. Dave
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:18 am


      Good observation on post #182.

    187. Juan G.
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 4:13 am

      “Recall that the Lord, when advocating being perfect, as God is, placed this command in the impartial context of the rain given by God falling on the just and the unjust.” – Jabez H.

      In this application, what do the rain-drops represent?

      “In this sense it is God who is the giver, and people receivers, God being impartial in application.” – Jabez H.

      What follows doesn’t make sense, but are you trying to say God rains down blessings (heaven/eternal life/etc) upon the just and unjust equally? I can’t guess what else you might mean, so I’ll just continue in this vein.

      If I’ve captured your meaning, and this is all very easily understood, then be corrected by the sermon, look at Matthew 5:12 and see Jesus say great is ‘your’ reward. The reciever of blessing is described in 5:3-11 (for Bo you could look at 5:10 in particular, as he pursues and teaches the exact righteousness that the Law teaches – that the Lord strove to obey, even as you persecute him).

      Further on down Jesus instructs us on the unjust, describing their guilt and their punishment, but NEVER their blessing or reward (not in the sermon, not in the entire Bible). That really says something there. …sun and rain sure, followed by hell-fire.

      Now how could you make the case that God gives impartially between just and unjust? He is biased towards the obedient.

      “This says something about where His kind of perfection–impartiality of giving–is centered, and it is not merited as to the law in that instance of instruction.” – Jabez H.

      How could you conclude in that way? Everything Jesus says is in the context of the Law and His deep understanding of it. Was He not speaking to Jews also? No special blessing is ever impartially given, but I can admit that the unjust are allowed to live (sun and rain being bare essentials) along with the just.

      Matthew 6:7 says “And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words.”

      When you are involved in discussion or an argument, do not ramble and carry on as if any good will come of it. You’re actually distracting us from discovering the truth by showering us with excess words delievered in long complex (or run-on) sentences. You utilize lists and compound descriptions constantly. You cast doubt without ceasing and bombard us with illegitimate concerns. It seems a top purpose of yours is appearing scholarly whilst confusing the common. I suggest you tailor your message to the proper audience in the future.
      Consider how you confuse and lull the less educated/less dedicated, whether they are meek or not.

      “Which are more succint…” – Jabez H.

      Bo’s message is clear and easily understood. Yours is speculative and vague, at best, and realistically, it’s difficult to even follow. Many people I know aren’t top readers – I bet they’d skip right over practically everything you say.

    188. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 11:37 am

      Jabez H.,

      There is a reason that there are thousands of denominations. A denomination is started when there is a call to obey truth and the then established church refuses to repent from its backsliding. Ultimately there is a remnant that leave or get kicked out of that backslidden church. The start a new assembly that is trying to obey the truth. They get so far and there is a call to obey the truth that they are ignoring…and the cycle occurs all over again.

      So then the backslidden churches continue to reject the truth that the remnants accepted, and so slide backwards further until they are reprobate. The remnant churches become denominations that refuse to go on in truth. And thus we have no wholesale reformation.

      The Roman Catholic church did not repent…some individuals did. Many denominations came from this, but the oldest are now in bad shape spiritually.

      There are also many new churches/denominations that have not stated because of revival. They have their origins in self pleasing, easy going, lukewarmness. There will be those in these churches that repent and start a new assembly, but the vast majority will continue to backslide into apostasy.

      This is the point I was trying to make by saying, “There is no example in history of the established “Church” repenting from its backsliding on a large scale. There are examples of revival/repentance coming to great numbers of individuals, though. The people of Israel refused to return and departed not from the sins of Jeroboam. What will we do?”


    189. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:03 pm

      Thus the call has always been, “Come out from among her.” The mother of harlots has very many daughters. They are being born all the time. They are born by backsliding. Babylon accepts paganism and worldliness into its congregations. As an example, there have been many times in church history that there has been a call to stop celebrating Xmas, by devout believers. But the pagan idolatry continues. Babylon will not repent…we must come out.


    190. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

      Why do some people backslide?..

      They follow the other sheep. They just keep doing what those around them are doing. Their culture’s and family’s rules and traditions are more important than YHWH’s rules and statutes. They deceive themselves and refuse to come out.


    191. Jabez H.
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:05 pm

      Juan, I think the citing and context as is given on Jesus command to be like God, with his kind of perfection, has to do with having an attitude of God’s impartial heart toward all, not with the blessings and rewards associated with any conditional covenants, where so, or a related life connected judgment of some in the illustration Jesus chose of intention to make his point on the heart of God. He was God on earth at the time and knew what He meant and clearly emphasized foremost by using such an illustration. And so it was made where it was the hardhearted religiously correct of his Nation and of His of family origin which had “shut up” a common person’s approach to the Kingdom and aCCOMPANYING good and impartial wishes of God for everyman.It was such an attitude Paul carried to the unconverted on Mars Hill.

      As your other examples show, we will always find a tension in scripture between impartiality of heart, and works or covenant based rewards and relationships, as such. Grace through faith essentially takes this tension to task through the basis of heart of the free gift offered anyone of the New Covenant, and its New and Living Way of life. What can happen after that relationship is established is altogether a different matter, of a different economy of God.

      God did not create the Mosaic covenant so as to create elitism, or as to becoming measuring sticks for comparisons of those upholding the traditions which evolved in practice around the covenant as forming hardhearted lenses from which to view others of a more common existence (as being inferior unloved and unrewarded folk); He sent the law for a mutual accountability and service regarding bonds shared among the selected covenant people group and Nation chosen to first receive it. He ushered in the New to replace the old over time and interchange around receipt of the Message of impartial love extended of the Gospel being preached to everyman. THereafter it is up to each and every to choose life or death accordingly.

      The old covenant kept them on track through the challenges of their environment and other value systems faced in the Land promised, in due season, on occupation and assumption of the locus of the Covenant.

      Even the sinner lost in darkness, if approached with the Gospel and its warmth has the opportunity of livin his or her for a prior season, as a given gift from God housing that person’s soul amd body on this earthly plane. This is the state of everyman, whereas they may be given the opportunity to repent and believe in time, place, and social setting.

      And too, not all aspects of human life are about Spiritual connection and matters or spiritual relationship, some are established simply by living on earth. The honest and hardworking rice patty farmer may or may not hear the Gospel in a lifetime, yet may indeed live a life of integrity solely based on the simple economy of their own existence, where so. To read into the text on perfection, as God is perfect, these other matters of religious equation consideration in the relationship of a believer to God is to miss the point of that particular passage.

      Bo, Once again the premises of your analysis differ from what are other premises for such an analysis of Church history phenomena over time, in cultural contexts, and of historical relevance (to populations, placements, cultures, language and tribal groups, migrations, seasons and history, etc.–none of which have to do with a believable cycle of religious change which you have described as a hypothetical. Your analysis begs of the lust of totality in its approach, not of the heart of God in impartiality of assumption.). There will always be real believers in most culturally founded churches, as well as in offshoots of preexisting churches in time. For example, after a Communist revolution destroys the infrastructure of faith in a given nationally boundaried nation or society, then that form of oppressive government changes due to this or that, the reappearance of the infrastructure of faith will occur. Faith then in that suffering context most likely was hidden in hearts, not publicly displayed, for obvious reasons. Faith is based on hearing the Word of God and responding to it, not on rules and regulations, for: it involves a divinely planted transaction between God and the believer in the Message.

      It simply comes across as vain to attempt to give a total phenomena summary analysis of what is true and not. and what resulted thereafter and not as a hypothetical. Church history is real, fills volumes of books, and is unrecorded as well. It involves real souls of real people in realtime. Only God can judge hearts adequately. Even in the crudible of the Crusades, with both godly and ungodly demands placed upon its footsoldiers, undoubtedly ongoing transactions between believers among these groups and the Father were happening. Who died and went to heaven in that scenario would be God’s call, not our own.

      Church history will inevitably be involved with families of origin, people groups, nations, and forces bearing upon such, over which, for the most part we are armchair observers, looking from the outside in. The Holy Spirit is placed inside believers to bear witness of Him, to show who are His, to reveal what is to come, etc.–all refelcted in John 13:13 through the beginning of the 16th chapter by our Lord.

      Who abides in Him, as telling in what circumstances, is ultimately His business as Head of the Church. Our lenses, analysis, and judgments are just that.

    192. tj
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:40 pm

      Greetings All. Just wanted to share this video with you–hope you are blessed by it.


    193. Debbie Fraser
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 1:45 pm

      You surely are a friend of God.

      “Be not afraid” I liked it.

      Blessings to you!!

    194. Bo
      December 3rd, 2010 @ 2:00 pm

      Jabez H.,

      You wrote:
      “The old covenant kept them on track through the challenges of their environment and other value systems faced in the Land promised, in due season, on occupation and assumption of the locus of the Covenant.”

      When I read the prophets, I do not see the law keeping them on track. The schoolmaster that kept them was the priesthood and its related sacrifices. The Sacrificial system kept their sins covered. The priesthood was there to teach them the holy and righteous rules of YHWH. But they backslid into pagan idolatry and commandments of men. It is no different for us today concerning the backsliding.

      The law only keeps one on track if it is written on the heart. The old covenant ministration of the law on stone was a testimony against their unrighteousness. The law is unable to keep anyone on track, in and of itself. The circumcised heart obeys YHWH’s law, by the ministration of the Spirit.

      My general overview was just that. There are many examples of what I relayed. There are a few examples of established churches throughout history remaining true and continuing to grow in truth. That is part of the problem with established churches…they are established. They get stuck in “this is the way it has always been.”

      The second and third generation believers slide back to a non circumcised heart approach to the truth. Usually the third or fourth generation is finally able to see the apostasy and reenters covenant with YHWH in a dynamic way. This fourth generation usually is bold enough to start a new and heart felt obedience. It usually has to leave the established church to do it.

      Persecuted churches are another matter. There are very few just along for the ride in these. I was not making reference to them in my above posts.


    195. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 2:52 am

      Other than what is recorded of history, or is objectively immediately seen through one’s own involvement, as to facts and trends within and without religiously boundaried groups–as being actual factors bearing on such or being so–what evidence do we have of indications of contributing particulars becoming an acquaintance of associated integrity for forming truly informed hypotheticals? To conclude who is a “true believer” and not then is a luxury as to assessing ekklesias’ changes over time. All civilizations change, if nothing more simply because their participants age in body and mind over time. Resources are accessed, used, depleted, and wain. Only the Son abides forever.

      There indeed must be many possible indicators of this or that, with some not as reliably certain as others, but, what is the point, we are not the all knowing, timeless, boundariless, all seeing Lord of the Revelation. We are in relationship with Him, not the recorders of inclsuion of His revealing. We are of the vast group holding to the testimony of Jesus, associated witht he provision of his blood, and trusting him for our own resurrection. We have the hope of the Promise.

      His vision of the Revelation is His, shared with great detail, yet too with considerable mystery in its reading. He sees the seven churches all at once, and as to the correction of His sum and summary spiritual conditions; He draws from this certain advocacies and pure hearted concerns. Indeed, as written, they are primarily concerns as to maintaining a relationship with Him as the Head.

      Only recently can we find mention of direct of associated religious groups social systems professional psychology and sociology assessments and interventions (which even then would be historically limited and rare as such, and so as is limited by assessment applied methodology, involvements, and purpose. Even with the noblist view, such are not God’s view. Their findings are seldom of faith, hope, and love.).

      So, I feel it is presumptuous to attempt to label all church and Christian religion changes over time as to patterns with possible armchair accuracy as to sin and true faith cycles, rather than as to indications of other cycles of change. This holds as to assuming any equation of sins and consequences, or as to so asserting any continuance of faith moving ahead by anyone so involved, who will have a limited time on earth from the point of their faith and any assessment of it. Especially this holds as to assuming as an armchair observer any knowledge of others hearts as known somehow intimately (as God knows) with conclusive results about the outworking of one’s or a group’s faith.

      There are many many reasons why one group goes through changes, and why other new groups happen. Many are the normal attritions of persons set in history, in time and place. It would be a fool’s errand to think our own analysis of circumstance and change is the same as the Lord’s, tha Ancient of Days. The fact remains that only the Lord can accurately say all the reasons for success, lack of success, and an abiding promise being in the mix of anyone’s faith, and confession, or not so.

      Even then, the instant one “counselor” or “mentor” or “assessor” counsels, it takes only one of any family system with an identified member having exhibited problems, without the full participation of other family members, to skew any assumptions of cause and effect as to assessments. All such family system assessments are at best educated guesses, and can reinforce alliances of convenience, 1:1, rather than of the all seeing eye of God allying with all those who wash their garments in the blood and testimony of the chosen Lamb. The very sending of the Lamb says something about the human ability to assess and control with impunity.

      Belief and practice will don the garments of time and place for everyman. Only one revealer of the Gospel came to earth from heaven, all the rest are partial imitators, not acquainted with the spiritual transformation of experiences of the others so affiliated–except in part.

      Does an assumptive analysis of which church once true as not believed as continuing so truly discern what the Lord has offered inall readers of His Revelation? Such may temporarily grant some analyst’s need for meaning, and possible temporal power–for gatekeeping information does include power–but as to reason and result we end up with the sense of human frailty and sinfulness even for the limiting heart of the analyst, as requiring the grace of redemption for its own state of being.

      I concur with what Dr. Brown wrote on an inability of one believer to understand all other believers history of assembly and faith because of not sharing the same moccasins of these, or the heavenly perspective of the risen Lord. We are not time travelers, and standards givers, He is.

      There is the mystical union body of Christ, the Church as cultural representative in time and space, and the organism of each church in relationship to the King and Kingdom. There is the ever shifting role of authority, submission, hierarchy, and mutuality, the practices of observance in assembly, and sacriments, and the cultivatged interior life, where so.

      Personality, lifespan growth and development, assoiciations, marriage and family, social values, society and the state or nation, education, economics, and morality: all speak of limits of any other besides the Lord to accurately assess. These can be stated to be interrelated to the “weightier matters” even discovered as being of the law (as well as present in these other constructs of human involvements as well). There remains a trust in that uncontrollable for a believer after the flesh passes on the soul to the truth of promises regarding time and eternity. Death, judgment, Hell, Heaven. This kind of economy is beyond our assessment and assumption capacity, other than as partial imitators of the Messiah’s own revelations and visitations.

      Presumption. It is dangerous to do so as to its affect on one’s own heart. It was the Lord who addressed the seven actual churches, and it was His corrective suggestions coming to bear on what was needed for His presence to continue with each one. The bottom line on faith is that we are redeemed by the works of Christ, and must abide in these truths, by grace through faith.

      We hope to bear His image. We hope to understand the operations of God. We hope to connect with the godly supernatural as tasting the authority from above. We hope that the misery and happiness of being human can realize the joy of the gifts given of God. The incarnation is central to this hope. Sacrifice has led to triumph only because of Jesus.

      The motive and rule of faith over a heart is humbling of intellectual ascent, related moral life, social order, and all order. Death is known by all who cycled through their here and now with this assembly and that one. Can we let God be God in Christ Jesus as to viewing the big picture over time and eternity?

    196. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 3:05 am

      Oh, and I did not wish to add to the above thesis the notion that the Priests you mentioned Bo, in their season, where components of the law in its season.

    197. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 3:05 am

      …were components of the law in their season.

    198. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 1:18 pm

      Jabez, still will answer on Romans 7-9 on an appropriate thread. Sabbatical today — need it. Peace

    199. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 4:01 pm

      Do you need “it” or Him?

    200. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 5:47 pm

      Bo, The point being on what you quoted from one of my posts that whatever the administration of the law in that cultic setting for the Nation, it was by components of the law, including Priests and Prophets–all elements of its composition–that boundaries were placed on citizens’ behavior. You have isolated one paragraph in my response and missed the theme of the response overall. I’d suggest outlining it or paraphrasing it as to achieving a capacity to increase apprehending what people actually write. It seems characteristic to take writing out of context in your responses, including that of NT scripture, to date.

    201. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 5:53 pm

      Bo, Leaving out the reformation as representing a clear repentance in church history is a case in point on apprehension.

    202. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 6:31 pm

      Ms. Fraser, when I wrote, “need it” I meant the Sabbatical, i.e., the TIME — for, of course, rest and extra closeness with Him.

      By the way, I have utterly no need to prove myself to you. From the beginning of your entrance on the Line of Fire, you obviously feel the need to repeatedly question my faith and even my Salvation.

      What what I’ve read, you have not proved your arguments against keeping the Sabbath, so perhaps you are compensating for that by casting personal aspersions.

      Earlier, you made the claim that you are “sensitive.” But from what I’ve read, I have to wonder if your sensitivity is actually focused only on your own feelings. If people agree with you, they receive your blessing. If not, you can sound harsh, judgmental, and even demeaning. I would consider that to be more a case of “touchiness” as opposed to “sensitivity.”

    203. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 6:40 pm

      I speak the truth. Sharper then a 2 edge sword.

      Hitting a nerve, huh Ruth!!! Wondering why?

    204. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 6:43 pm

      I’m not questioning your faith. That is being paranoid. Maybe it is you questioning your faith.

    205. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 6:58 pm

      I am very, very sensitive in the spirit realm. I’m sensing strongly right now that you have a “spirit of anger” in you. Bitterness too. Not judging just observing.

    206. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 7:45 pm

      Funny, that’s what I read from you.

    207. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 7:49 pm

      Since you’ve decided to “debate” in this emotionalistic manner, believing yourself incapable of error, imagining all your thoughts to be from the Lord Himself, I am thenceforth disengaging from further responses to your posts.

      But I wish you peace and Love anyway…

    208. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:03 pm

      Why would I have anger in me? I’m not angry about anything. I didn’t snap, you did.

      If you had peace in you, what I said …
      “Do you need “it” or Him?” wouldn’t of bothered you.

      If that was said to me, I world of reacted… Oh yeah, your right, LOL.

    209. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:17 pm

      Sisters, Our discussions on backsliding seemed to have digressed to something else.

      Anger is an emotion, not a sin, unless it gets into the realm of assignment of cause, as a component of assignment. No one “makes us angry”, for the emotion is inherent. Even Jesus was angered on occasion, as to indignation, frustration, but not as to resentment at all. There is a fine line on the emotion taking charge of the capacity to think issues and matters through.

      All of us feel our feelings, that is not a sin, unless following the path to resentment, and murder. Jesus talked of lust in hearts being the same as adultery. So, please tred cautiously ahead. Accept one another, with unity on the essentials, and diversity on the unessentials.

      Which day one observes, with an honoring of the Lord, is not wrong or right, but a matter of devotion and conviction for observance, as such.

      I wrote in the past, that due to ministry commitments, I observe both days, but I preach neither, it is a matter, as Paul writes in Rom 14, of being convinced in our hearts and minds, and honoring Christ.

      There is little need to take on one another, defend our being, or our responses on this site. There is a need to EXPLORE topics and quesion all of their assumptions, assertions, and presumptions made by any of us. This is healthy.

      We really have no way to know the heart of anyone, unless having a long acquaintance, and, even then, we should follow the path of later Mt. 18 in matters of offense. It is not offensive to be angry, or not, it can be if it becomes an assigning anger, of a conflicting spirit, crossing the Lord’s command to love one another.

      Please forgive one another, as to “disputable matters”, and me, as necessary, and continue in fellowship here on Topic.

    210. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:41 pm

      Jabez, I can easily forgive what I consider to be my sister’s false, accusatory tone (yet again), but I don’t see a reason to continue engaging, based on what I perceive to be certain tendencies there, and I’m happy with that decision.

      We do eventualy learn from life’s experiences, and I’ve learned that there is a kind of communication which will remain draining and unprofitable.

      But yes — forgiven, definitely.

    211. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:42 pm

      And as I mentioned, I’ll resume discussion of the topic on another, more appropriate thread.

    212. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:46 pm

      I wasn’t talking about anger as being a sin Jabez. I was talking more on the term of deliverance.

      To react that way just because I posted…
      Do you need “it” or Him?

      Why get mad at that? I don’t get it.

      Besides what did the Sabbath Day have to do with anything I said. Never mentioned talk about that.

      I can clearly see how the devil works.

    213. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:46 pm

      Ruth, I understood what you said about your sabbath day, rest, etc. Amen.

    214. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:51 pm

      Debbie, I do not read a reaction in the first response of Ruth to your unnecessary remark. And I have no way of knowing who may have been angry at all. As for your deliverance remark, I feel it was unwarranted due to the discussion as it happened. None of us are the barameter of the Holy Spirit, we either are responding from Christ in us or from personality. We hope that our personal expressions are tempered by truth and grace, Christ in us, admoinishions to love one another, and the Way of Mt. 18 in all our differences, as such.

    215. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 8:57 pm

      On perspectives on backsliding. From what , to what? This is the topic of consideration here.

    216. Debbie Fraser
      December 4th, 2010 @ 9:18 pm

      Wow! This is really scary now. I can understand why Sheila wanted to leave this place.

      I am done with fellowshipping here.

      Dr Brown,
      It has been a pleasure chatting with you from time to time on the radio. May the Lord continue to use you and bless you. You truly are a man of God.

      I do not feel at peace with some of these people.

    217. Ruth
      December 4th, 2010 @ 9:20 pm

      I appreciate your understanding, Jabez.

      The topic is definitely backsliding.

      I meant I would explore Romans 7-8 on another thread, since it deals with matters of the Law and sin. While I do actually think those to be appropriate to a discussion on why people might backslide, I recognize, as others have already suggested, that earlier threads have dealt with the Law and sin, and so I felt those would be the place to examine Romans 7-8 –> Referring to your question to me on your post #109. I read it (Romans 7-8) recently again, and it is definitely rich for that subject.

    218. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 9:51 pm

      Debbie, I request that you read and consider what I wrote, and not exit. I do not believe I was not responding in peace, or extending His peace when responding. It was simply unnecessary to create a false dychotomy between Ruth’s choice to inform me of her need to take her chosen Sabbath rest, and the Lord, they are compatable and not at odds with one another.

      I have shared in past remarks why I observe both a Friday PM commitment and a Sunday commitment. Jesus was not anti-sabbath keeping, nor was the early church, Paul observed it in Acts 21 when keeping vows under the law in Jersalem. In fact the church at Jerusalem initially met in the Courts of the Temple, prior to being persecuted later by the official structures Jews of Jerusalem. There is too considerable evidence in Acts of gathering on Sunday, the Lord’s Day. This was after the Acts 15 Council, and likely after writing Galations, Romans, etc. For sure, after writing Galations, where Paul remarks on the sufficiency of Christ, and not needing to observe the law of Moses. The Ten Commandments were actually attributed to the writing of the “finger of God” in the Torah, hence, can be separated from what Moses then gave as being his law. They are the Law of the Sinai Covenant, given to the Jewish traveling nation at the time, and later located for observation in the Land of Promise. Please understand that I am not insisting here on Sabbath keeping, but on honoring Christ in whatever days, day, etc. you chose to keep under the freedom we have in Christ.

      Debbie, he Himself is our peace, our unifying reality, and propitiation from sin. He is the Lord of the Sabbath, and the Lord of heaven, as such. You have written twice now on what you “feel”, scriputre admonishes us to reform our minds, and have the mind of scripture, of Christ so formed.

      In the past you asked if Bo spoke in “the heavenly language,” to which he responded yes. Mormons claim to, I claim to, Dr. Brown claims to: do you notice anything here as to using this as a bottom line for discernment? We are told to renew our minds with the written Word, and that tongues has a fellowship prophetic context, and a prayer and praise language context, again, in scripture.

      You are safe to share on this forum, but not safe to always assume that what anyone “feels” is the barometer of faith, hope, and love–as given by Jesus the Christ. He is the essence of the Message of the Kingdom, and He clarified how the Spirit works in John 13:13 through early chapter 16. Paul wrote of how the gifts work in Ephesians, Romans and Corinthians: as to order, edification, and truth in graceful application.

      I do not know many backgrounds of many here, but I do know as a person and an elder when to remark on assumptions, assignments, and emotions–when these are being heeded over the Word and the grace of scripture. Ruth is not outside the bonds of fellowship in her choice of Sabbath (Saturday, current international calendar) observance, and I am not outside the bonds of extending my hand to you in fellowship, nor my carefully selected words of admonishion, or rebuke, when given.

      I would reuest that you ponder the words I wrote to you, bring them before good counsel in your present affiliations in Christ, including print these out, with this one, prior to reacting and withdrawing. We all grow and change as a result of our fellowship interchanges over time, of respecting the written word, and so forth. The writings of the Apostles, not the utterances in tongues, are what the converts in Acts studied and received as anointed teaching.

      There are today new “disputable matters” in present Churches arenas, but the Body of Christ remains indivisible in Him. You are loved here, not rejected. If you wish to understand Ruth’s written choices, I would be happy to mediate these for your understanding. I understood them, and responded as I have. Your remark on it or Him was flippant, unneeded, and unrequired of the blog interactions here. Perhaps Ruth may have restrained her own blanket assessment of all your posts to offer a climate of peacemaking in the process of reading them over. Perhaps that too was unnecessary here.

    219. Jabez H.
      December 4th, 2010 @ 9:55 pm

      Also, Debbie, Sheila, Ruth, Tom, Bo, others and I continue to interchange here, when agreeing and not so, because of commitment to civil interchange according to the posted rules of this blog. When those rules seem crossed, someone sometime, will make such comments as I have and others have.

    220. Bo
      December 4th, 2010 @ 11:46 pm

      Jabez H.,

      You wrote:
      “Bo, Leaving out the reformation as representing a clear repentance in church history is a case in point on apprehension.”

      I do not leave it out…it is as I say.

      The established church failed to repent. Individuals did, and started anew in the renewed truth. They ended up staring assemblies that became denominations in need of repentance…on and on.


    221. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 5:23 am

      Actually Bo, the Catholic Church went through considerable repentance as a result of the Reformation losses it experienced. Check the books.

    222. Sheila
      December 5th, 2010 @ 9:41 am

      Was I not example enough of “instant” backsliding?!

      Please don’t leave this blog site, Debbie. It’s a very dry desert and a waste howling wilderness out there in the blogofsphere. You were the first to call me back. I’ve not been following along in many discussions lately, but, I see where things have degenerated into clashes, which may only be people being themselves. Let’s remember we are each at a different level in our studies and understanding of the Word. Please let’s not forsake anyone. Some are more knowledgeable than others, but, we still need all the parts of the Body to remain “in the Body of Christ”.

      Forgive one another, please, for the Lord’s sake, restore your brothers and sisters in the right way.

      With Love for All of You, in Christ.

    223. Sheila
      December 5th, 2010 @ 10:02 am

      I do see where talk about the law has showed up, whether about backsliding or not, and I was guilty of it myself. It should probably resume under “Is the Mosaic Covenant eternal or not?”. But, be prepared to read “a book” before you are up to speed in the discussion there.

      I was able to watch a wonderful sermon from Charles Price this morning. His show is “Living Truth” from Canada and aired on the NRB network. Of all things, he was talking about the ten commandments. If you can watch it, it would be well worth it.

    224. Bo
      December 5th, 2010 @ 11:14 am

      Jabez H.,

      So you think that the Catholic church is correct in it’s doctrine? You think that they do not idolize Mary? You think that their version of salvation by sacraments administered by the church is right? Purgatory? Apostolic succession? Papal infallibility? You like their icons/idols? Think a mandatory celibate priesthood is scriptural?

      You would quit your current church and go there with no thought of that your were compromising the truth?

      Seems like one to come out of to me.


    225. Sheila
      December 5th, 2010 @ 12:34 pm

      I’m just curious, Bo, did you study in a Yeshiva?

    226. Dr. Michael L. Brown
      December 5th, 2010 @ 12:56 pm

      Everybody, one final reminder: 1) This is the place to share comments and thoughts about what is discussed on each show; 2) This is not the place to use as a platform to introduce your own particular teachings or beliefs (except as it relates directly to the topic at hand). 3) This is not the place to comment on each other.

      Thanks for complying!

    227. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 2:07 pm

      Bo, I do not support many assumptive doctrines of the Catholic Church, however, I am aware of its place in history. I hold some respect of its understanding of the value of contemplative disciplines, as to present day applications crossing denominiational barriers.

      Also, when John commented on what seems to be Rome, in the Revelation, we have to recall that Emperor worship was its doctrine at the time of John’s writing. What is Babylon then becomes not so clear as a mere cycle of false doctrine and church histories. Many have made the obvious connection between mammon and what John recorded as Babylon.

    228. Bo
      December 5th, 2010 @ 2:20 pm

      Jabez H.,

      The point is that the established church had backsliden. The organization did not repent. Lots of people repented and came out. This has happened throughout church history with other established churches doing the same as Rome. The backsliding of today can be the same…non-repenting establishments dragging their members down with them. Coming out is usually the only way to escape.


    229. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 2:35 pm

      Bo, This would depend upon how one discerned repentance, the C. Church did organizationally address some real issues in its face as a result of the Reformation, however, still deluded as to it being the only “universal” church, and as to some of the doctrinal matters you mentioned. As we have difficulty knowing all the hearts involved, we still have to recall there are many fine believers of record over time affiliated with that Church.

    230. Bo
      December 5th, 2010 @ 5:10 pm

      Jabez H.,

      You can never concede a point, can you? I know that there are many fine believers in just about any church. That still does not make the organization not backslidden. It still does not negate the fact that these organizations produce or maintain backslidden believers. It is still the correct thing to come out of apostasy.


    231. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 5:57 pm

      According to what measuring stick?

    232. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 6:14 pm

      Just curious, Bo, did you see Dr. Brown’s piece on the site in another thread, on whether the Mosaic covenant is eternal? Shall the measuring stick be measured by sin or by faith?

    233. Jabez H.
      December 5th, 2010 @ 9:53 pm

      Jesus commented on the Spirit convicting regarding sin, righteousness, and judgment. It is most interesting how he expanded on these, all in reference to Him. So, backsliding must be viewed in that regard in present Covenant considerations.

    234. Bo
      December 6th, 2010 @ 12:15 am

      Jabez H.,

      Whatever you do…never concede even the smallest point.

      Backsliding is what it is…and what ever it is, it is failing to live up to what one knows is right. The cares of this life, even if they are churchy cares, can cause us to backslide.


    235. Jabez H.
      December 6th, 2010 @ 11:24 am

      Re: #127; I’m uncertain what you are advocating I “concede”? Church history is pretty clear on the matter of how the Reformation affected the C. Church thereafter having organizational meetings regarding the repentance mentioned to change their approach at the time. If you need the reference I can find it for you.

    236. Jabez H.
      December 6th, 2010 @ 11:25 am

      “churcy cares”?

    237. Ruth
      December 6th, 2010 @ 2:41 pm

      Isn’t this amazing?

      [and on topic]

      Luke 15:10
      “Likewise, I say to you, there is joy in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents.” (NKJV)

    238. Ruth
      December 6th, 2010 @ 2:43 pm

      “joy in the presence of the angels of God over one” !!!

      Sweet, sweet love of God

    239. Jabez H.
      December 6th, 2010 @ 3:01 pm

      Ruth, So, we’d best keep our confession to Him current, you think?

    240. Ruth
      December 7th, 2010 @ 1:11 pm

      Absolutely, moment to moment. Or did I misunderstand your question?

    241. Jabez H.
      December 13th, 2010 @ 4:21 pm

      Ruth, no misunderstanding. Right on.

    242. Daniel
      December 16th, 2010 @ 12:12 pm


      I can’t tell you about anyone else; but, I can speak for myself.

      Also, the requirement/discipline/work of having hope. I don’t like having hope, because I don’t like the hope being let down; but I have no choice but to have hope if I wish to “tell the Truth”… and that narrow pathway is not easy to be on:

      “what? work, AND be happy?”

      I’m used to doing things out of fear; not love or goodness.

      It is when that narrow pathway, and the urgency of reality – when something will be expected of me – that scares me away; because I am afraid I cannot fulfill those hopes, no matter what those expectations of me are. It makes me not even want to have anything to do with the situation for which expectations are being put upon me… not sure if it is laziness ALONE, or… i don’t know…

    243. Daniel
      December 16th, 2010 @ 12:18 pm

      It all boils down to: DISOBEDIENCE.

      Not wanting to work mercy and love (the light burden of the Lord), for fear of being hurt.

      I can’t know everything God wants beforehand, but if I would just keep that ONE THING in mind – OBEY HIM! – I would have lived as I ought to have…

      I think that one thing: when God has expectation of me to fulfill a PRECISE thing…

    244. Robert. A
      May 9th, 2011 @ 10:56 am

      “Warning to backsliders”
      Prov. 14:14.The backslider in heart shall be filled with his own ways:
      and [but]a good man shall be satisfied from himself [that is, from above himself].
      Prov.1:29-31; 12:15; Prov. 13:2, 18:20
      29. For that they hated knowledge [i.e. the ground-rules of wisdom], and did not choose the fear [or reverential awe] of the Lord:
      30. They would [have] none of my reproof.
      31. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
      32. For the turning away [i.e. the waywardness, thus, the backsliding] of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity [or complacency] of fools shall destroy them.
      33. But whoso hearkens [and listen] to me shall dwell safely, and shall be quite [that is, they shall be secure and at ease] from fear of evil.
      Thus saith the LORD,
      Jer. 8:5, 6, 8-12
      Why then is this people of Jerusalem [even, New Spiritual Jerusalem] slidden back by a perpetual [or, unremitting] backsliding? [Because]
      they hold fast deceit [or rather, to deceit], they refuse to return.
      6. I hearkened [or listened to them] and heard, but they spoke not aright [or rather, upright]: no man [i.e. none of them] repented him of his wickedness, saying, “What have I done?” Every one [else] turned to his [own] course, as the horse rushes into the battle.
      8. How do [or rather, can] you say, We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us? Lo, certainly in vain made he it; the pen of the scribes is in vain [i.e. the false pen of the scribe i.e. writers of the Word of God] certainly works falsehood] .
      9. The wise men are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom is in them?
      10. Therefore will I give their wives unto others, and their fields to them that shall inherit them: for every one from the least even unto the greatest is given to covetousness, from the prophet even unto the priest every one deals falsely.
      11. For they have healed [Lit. crushing] the hurt of the daughter of my people slightly [i.e. Superficially], saying, Peace, peace; when there is no peace.
      12. Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore shall they fall among them that fall: in the time of their visitation [i.e. punishment] they shall be cast down, says the LORD.
      Heb 2:1-3
      1. THEREFORE
      1. we aught to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip [drift away, or slide].
      2. For if the word spoken by angels was steadfast [and unwavering], and every transgression and disobedience received
      a just recompense [Or penalty] of reward;
      3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [or rather, that listened to] him;
      2 Pet. 2:20.
      For after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, [but] they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
      John 15:5.
      I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in me, and I in Him,
      the same brings forth and produces much fruit:
      for without me you can do, [accomplish or profit]
      cr. John 5:14.
      [thus, Behold, you have been made whole
      [i.e you have been completely healed, completely set free, completely cleansed
      and redeemed of your past sins]:
      sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto you.
      2 Pet. 21-22.
      For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
      22. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb,
      THE DOG IS TURNED (That is to say, the dog RETURNS) TO HIS OWN VOMIT AGAIN;
      and so does the sow [or female hog] that was washed [returns] to her wallowing in the mire [or mud].
      Prov. 26:11. As a dog returns to his vomit, so [or in the same manner], a fool returns to (or repeats) his folly [foolishness and recklessness].
      Thus saith the Lord; As it is written,
      John 17:12.
      While I was with them in the world, I kept them in your name: those that you gave me I have kept, and none of them is lost [or destroyed], but [except for] the son [or child] of perdition [and destruction]; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
      As it is also written,
      As it is also written,
      1 John 2:19.
      They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest [i.e. exposed and brought into the light] that they were not all (none of them were) of us.
      As it is written,
      cr. John 6:66, 67, 68, 69, 70
      From that time many of his disciples went back [i.e. they backslid and fell away], and walked no more with him.
      Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will you also [or do you also want to] go away?
      T h e n S i m o n P e t e r
      answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life.
      And we believe and are sure [we Lit. know] that you are that Christ, the Son of the living God.
      J e s u s a n s w e r e d t h e m ,
      Have not I chosen you twelve, and [yet] one of you is a devil?
      Ps. 41:9-10
      Y e s, m i n e o w n f a m i l i a r
      friend [of whom he also called friend from the moment when you first believed], in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread [i.e. who did partake of my good word], has [now] lifted up his heel against me
      [that is to say, Acted as a traitor against Me].
      But you, O LORD, be merciful unto me, and raise me up, that I may requite [and repay] them.
      Ps. 109:6-7
      Set you a wicked man over them: and let Satan
      [i.e. the accuser]
      stand at their right hand. When they shall be judged let him be condemned
      [and found guilty]:
      let their prayer become sin.

      He that turns away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

      He who causes the righteious to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have [and inherit] good things in possession.
      Heb. 2:14, 15, 18.
      Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of the flesh and blood, he also himself [namely, Jesus] likewise took part [i.e. shared] of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death that is, the devil;
      A n d d e l i v e r t h e m w h o
      through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to [and under] bondage
      [that is to say, slaves to sin].
      For in that he himself has suffered being tempted [tried and tested], he is able to succor [and aid] them that are also tempted.
      As it is written,
      1 Cor. 10:12-13.
      Wherefore let him that thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. Therefore has no temptation taken [or overtaken] you except such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer [or allow] you to be tempted [i.e. tested or enticed] above that [which] you are able [to resist]; but [he] will with [or in the midst of your] temptation also make a way for you to escape that you may be able to bear [endure, and not succumb to it]
      Ps. 125:3
      For the rod of the wicked [or scepter of wickedness] shall not rest upon the lot [or the land that is allotted to righteous; lest [or unless] the righteous put forth [or reach out] their hands unto [i.e. willingly partake in] iniquity [i.e. he willfully partakes in sinful acts].
      cr. James 1:13-15
      13. Let no man say when he is tempted [i.e. tested], “I am tempted of [Or because of] God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he himself any man:
      14. But every man is tempted [i.e. he becomes enticed], when he is drawn away of
      [or by] his own lust [i.e. one’s own fleshly desires], and [then he is] enticed.
      15. Then when lust [namely, the strongly perverse desires of the flesh] has conceived [i.e. has been established in their own hearts], it brings forth [or rather, it eventually gives birth to] sin: and sin, when it is finished [or full-grown], brings forth death
      [spiritually and often times literally].
      As it is written,
      cr. Job. 15:35.
      35. They conceive mischief [i.e. evil and calamity], and bring forth vanity
      [namely, pride and conceit], and their belly [or womb] prepares deceit.
      cr. Rom. 1:18-22.
      18. But the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of the men, who hold [Or suppress] the truth in unrighteousness.
      19. Because that which may be k n o w n o f [Or f r o m] G o d i s m a n i f e s t e d [Or e v i d e n t] i n t h e m;
      for God has shown it unto them.
      20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made [including man], even
      [Or which is] his eternal power and God-head; so that they are without excuse:
      21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were they thankful; but became vain
      [i.e. conceited, apotheosized, idol worshippers of material things] in [Or because of]
      their imaginations
      [i.e. perverse thoughts], and their foolish heart was darkened.
      Eccl. 8:11. [But] Because [the] sentence [or the exaction of punishment] against an evil work is not executed speedily, therefore the heart of the sons [i.e. children] of men is fully set in them to do [or to continue to do] evil.
      2 Pet. 3:7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13
      7. But the heavens and the earth, which are now [or that we now live in], by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (or until) the day of judgment and perdition (and destruction) of ungodly men [i.e. people].
      8. But, Beloved, Be not ignorant of this one thing. that one day is with the Lord a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
      9. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but [he] is long-suffering to us-ward [or towards us], not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
      10. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works [or deeds] that are therein shall be burned up.
      11. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation (and or conduct) and godliness,
      12. Looking for and hasting (or rather, hastening) unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
      13. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, Look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwells righteousness.
      Heb 2:3. How shall we escape, if we neglect so great [a] salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
      Matt 22:14
      “For many are called, but few are chosen”.
      Rom. 8:30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:
      and whom he called, them he also justified [thus, declaring their righteousness]:
      and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
      1 Pet. 2:9-17. But [i.e. And] you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a peculiar [or rather, his own special] people; that you should show forth the praises of him who has called you out of d a r k n e s s i n t o h i s m a r v e l o u s light.
      10. Which in times past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.
      1 Pet. 2:11-17.
      Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers [i.e. travelers] and pilgrims [namely, The Body of Christ], abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
      12. Having your conversation [and conduct] honest [and honorable] among the Gentiles [namely, the nation at large]: that, whereas they speak against you as evil doers, [but instead] they may by your good works, which they shall observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
      13. Submit yourselves to every ordinance [or institution] of man for the Lord’s sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme;
      14. Or unto governments, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evil doers, and
      for the praise of them that do well.
      15. For so is the will of God, that with well doing you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:

      16. As free, but not using your liberty for a cloak of maliciousness [evil, that is], but as the servants of God.
      17. Honor all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king [and or the president].
      James 4:10. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, then He shall lift you up.
      Rom. 6:17. But God be thanked, that [though] you were [once] servants [or slaves] of sin, but you have [since then] obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered [i.e. to which you were entrusted]
      1 John 3:22-24
      22. And [then] whatsoever we ask, we [will] receive of [or from] him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
      23. And this is the commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment [or commanded us to do].
      24. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him, and he in them. And hereby we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit which he has given us.
      24. And he that keeps his commandments dwells in him and he in him, And hereby we know that he abides in us, by [i.e. by way of] the Spirit which he has given us.
      As it is written,
      Rom. 8:35-37.
      35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness [or lack of clothing], or peril, or sword?
      37. Nay [or rather, No and of course not], [but rather] in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.
      57. And thanks be to God, which gives us victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
      58. T h e r e f o r e, m y b e l o v e d brethren, be you steadfast, unmovable, always abounding in the work [or laboring in doing the good deeds] of the Lord, forasmuch as you know that your labor is not in vain [i.e. they are neither useless nor without reward] in the Lord.
      Rom. 8:38-39.
      38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
      39. Nor height, nor dept, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the
      love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
      As it is written,

    245. Larry Kinsler
      November 19th, 2011 @ 2:22 pm

      People today that teach losing Salvation use Adam as an example of becoming lost ” the second time “. Romans 5:14-19 tells us that He became lost not when He backslid, not when He changed masters, not when He walked away from the Lord, but when He committed one sin by disobeying one commandment. I have two questions for losing Salvation apologists today that beg to be answered. 1. Why don’t you become lost the second time today just as the example of Adam you use became lost? 2. Why are you only lost when you ” die that way “; why aren’t you lost when you ” live that way”?

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